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Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro

Post Number: 499
Registered: 5-2004


Posted on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 10:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041215/ap_on_re_us/ten_comm andments_robe


quote:

MONTGOMERY, Ala. - A judge refused to delay a trial Tuesday when an attorney objected to his wearing a judicial robe with the Ten Commandments embroidered on the front in gold."


Does anyone here support this? I'm really curious.


quote:

McKathan told The Associated Press that he believes the Ten Commandments represent the truth "and you can't divorce the law from the truth. ... The Ten Commandments can help a judge know the difference between right and wrong."


Um. A judge needs help discerning right from wrong?

I tend to ignore most of the religious zealot stuff being thrown around, but to me, this is HIGHLY disturbing. I wonder how this judge would react to soeone wearing the Bill of Rights (happy birthday today, by the way) printed on a shirt.
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Dave
Moderator
Username: Dave

Post Number: 4682
Registered: 4-1998


Posted on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 10:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm guessing he wants to run for office.
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Parkbench87
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Username: Parkbench87

Post Number: 1623
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 10:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To paraphrase Mr T "He's a fool"

A courtroom is a formal setting. Attorneys or defendants should not wear clothing with writing on it. Why would a judge wear a robe with writing on it?
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Parkbench87
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Username: Parkbench87

Post Number: 1624
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 10:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If he loses the case the defense attorney can say

"I saw the writing on the robe."
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Mark Fuhrman
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Username: Mfpark

Post Number: 976
Registered: 9-2001


Posted on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 11:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The attorneys should wear the Constitution on their sleeves. I hear there is something in there about not establishing a state religion.
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Michael Janay
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Username: Childprotect

Post Number: 1382
Registered: 1-2003


Posted on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 1:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They should all wear the bill of rights... I think sometimes that both Prosecutor and defense attorney should have to get it tattooed on their chests.

I always thought one of the purposes of wearing robes was to hide any personal displays.
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Mark Fuhrman
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Username: Mfpark

Post Number: 978
Registered: 9-2001


Posted on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 1:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How personal a display do you mean? Just what DO they wear under those robes?

And just to be cantankerous, why is the judge's canonical robe not protected by his right to free speech?
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Rastro
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Username: Rastro

Post Number: 505
Registered: 5-2004


Posted on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 2:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mark, good question. IANAL, but I believe that when a judge dons a robe, he is a representative of the government, and as such anything he says or does is considered to be government speech. So if a judge were to rule that a criminal must tatoo "Allahu Akbar" on his forehead, that would likely be considered to be the government promoting religion (until another judge struck it down as being just plain stupid and unconstitutional).
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extuscan
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Username: Extuscan

Post Number: 392
Registered: 6-2001
Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 12:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are three branches of government... for those of you new to this... and only one makes law. That would be the legistlative branch. The 1st amendment only deals with what legistlative branch can do...

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Judges do not make laws, nor are they representative of "the government" in the way a teacher does because judges are a branch of government all of thier own.

John
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luv2cruise
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Username: Luv2cruise

Post Number: 309
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 4:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Perry Mason.
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Rastro
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Username: Rastro

Post Number: 506
Registered: 5-2004


Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 10:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

John,

So then why is South Orange prohibited from passing a law that says you can't say "South Mountain" within its borders? The South Orange BOT is not Congress. Yet such a law would be considered unconstitutional.

Obviously the judicial branch does not make law. But it does intepret it. Maybe I'm just not Jewish enough (it is from the Old Testament, afterall), but I just don't see how a judge wearing the Ten Commandments on his robe is acceptable.

The first amendment has been interpretted to mean government (at all levels, federal, state, and municipal) as a whole, not just the Congress. Otherwise states could pass all kinds of laws prohibiting free speech.

As for this

quote:

Judges do not make laws, nor are they representative of "the government" in the way a teacher does because judges are a branch of government all of thier [sic] own.


It's just plain silly. Teachers do not interpret laws. Teachers do not have legislated (not legislative) authority. You might as well compare judges to Sanitation workers.

But getting back to the original post, to me the more serious issue is the second quote, implying that the judge uses religion as a basis for rulings, rather than the law of the land.
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Tom Reingold
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Username: Noglider

Post Number: 4778
Registered: 1-2003


Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 12:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm sure case law has shown that "Congress shall make no law" means that such a law or policy or enforcement violates natural law, therefore, whether Congress or anyone makes a law, it is unconstitutional. It follows that no one shall make an effort to establish a state religion, including the judicial or executive branch and also state and local governments.
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ashear
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Username: Ashear

Post Number: 1584
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 1:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For example the case in which a federal court ordered Judge Roy Moore to remove the ten commandments monument from the Alabama Supreme Court.
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Michael Janay
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Username: Childprotect

Post Number: 1395
Registered: 1-2003


Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 2:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wonder though,

What if the judge was just wearing a rather large crucifix pendant on a chain around his neck?

Where is the line drawn between freedom of expression and implied state sponsorship?
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Southerner
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Username: Southerner

Post Number: 25
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 2:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This judge is obviously out for publicity and probably more on his local level (popularity and probably the beginning of a political campaign).

No doubt that this will get the "Roy Moore treatment" in the press which will turn this judge into a folk hero among a minority of the local people. I'm sure the vast majority of Alabamians are looking at this and laughing that another judge is looking for her 15 minutes of fame.

Since Auburn got left out of the BCS Championship game this will at least give the local papers something else to discuss for a few weeks.

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bobk
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Username: Bobk

Post Number: 7026
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 2:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Southerner, sometimes you make to much sense. :-)

But I guess it can work. Isn't Moore up for a Federal judgeship?
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extuscan
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Username: Extuscan

Post Number: 393
Registered: 6-2001
Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 6:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL the BOT and Congress are both legistlative branches and only these legistlative branches can make law. So, no, you are right, you can't ban the phrase 'South Mountain' from SO, but surely there are far dirtier words written in the school rest rooms than over the doors.

As we all know... Congress is precluded from making laws that create state religion... then the Congress cannot require, for example, judges to wear the ten commandments on thier robes.

However, if a Judge decides he wants to wear the Ten Commandments on his robe there is no risk of establishing a state religion because the Judge has no power to create law.

Oh, and enough about "case law". Jim Crow was case law once too.

John
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Rastro
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Username: Rastro

Post Number: 510
Registered: 5-2004


Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 9:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just to be clear, these are your opinions about the law, not how it has been interpretted by the SCOTUS or any governing body, right?

As others have pointed out, Judge Moore was forced to remove the Commandments as a statue from a courthouse. This is a much more personal expression of the same thing. As I said, however, to me it's more of a concern to me that he essentially says he uses a religious document as a basis for his rulings.
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Matthew
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Username: Basketball1127

Post Number: 103
Registered: 11-2004


Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 11:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The 10 Commandments can help him see the truth and make the right decision sure... but is it really all that long that he has to write it on his clothing, rather than just memorize it. I mean come on.
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ashear
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Username: Ashear

Post Number: 1588
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 10:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Extuscan's interpretation is interesting and novel, but I don't think its correct. School boards don't make laws but they can't require that students pray in class. Executive orders are not technically laws, thought they have the force of law, but the President can't order all federal workers to pray before work. I think one obvious rationale for this is that virtually all of the power that the President and Judiciary possess are by virtue of laws passed by Congress.

Even if his was a correct interpretation of the First Amendment we are talking about a state court, not a federal one. The First Amendment does not directly apply to the states at all. The due process clause of the 14th amendment has been interpreted as extending most of the bill of rights ot the states. That clause is not limited to legislative acts.
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ashear
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Username: Ashear

Post Number: 1589
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 11:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Supreme Court clearly disagrees too. In County of Allegheny v. ACLU the court ruled a creche placed in the lobby of a courthouse unconstitutional.

And this from the 11th Circuit decision in the Judge Moore 10 commandments case:


quote:

The First Amendment does not say that no government official may take any action respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. It says that “Congress shall make no law” doing that. Chief Justice Moore is not Congress. Nonetheless, he apparently recognizes that the religion clauses of the First Amendment apply to all laws, not just those enacted by Congress. See
Everson v. Bd. of Educ., 330 U.S. 1, 15, 67 S. Ct. 504, 511 (1947) (holding that the
Establishment Clause applies to the states through the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment). Even with that concession, his position is still plenty bold. He argues that because of its “no law” language, the First Amendment proscribes only laws, which should be defined as “a rule of civil conduct . . . commanding what is right and prohibiting what is wrong.” Brief of Appellant at 19 (quoting 1 William Blackstone, Commentaries *44). Any governmental action promoting religion in general or a particular religion is free from constitutional 27 scrutiny, he insists, so long as it does not command or prohibit conduct. The monument does neither, but instead is what he calls “a decorative reminder of the moral foundation of American law.” Brief of Appellant at 19.
The breadth of the Chief Justice’s position is illustrated by his counsel’s concession at oral argument that if we adopted his position, the Chief Justice would be free to adorn the walls of the Alabama Supreme Court’s courtroom with sectarian religious murals and have decidedly religious quotations painted above the bench. Every government building could be topped with a cross, or a menorah, or a statue of Buddha, depending upon the views of the officials with authority over the premises. A crèche could occupy the place of honor in the lobby or rotunda of every municipal, county, state, and federal building. Proselytizing religious messages could be played over the public address system in every government building at the whim of the official in charge of the premises.
However appealing those prospects may be to some, the position Chief Justice Moore takes is foreclosed by Supreme Court precedent. County of Allegheny, 492 U.S. at 612, 109 S. Ct. at 3110, which held unconstitutional the placement of a crèche in the lobby of a courthouse, stands foursquare against the notion that the Establishment Clause permits government to promote religion so long as it does not command or prohibit conduct. Id., 109 S. Ct. at 3110 (“To be 28 sure, some Christians may wish to see the government proclaim its allegiance to Christianity in a religious celebration of Christmas, but the Constitution does not permit the gratification of that desire, which would contradict ‘the logic of secular liberty’ it is the purpose of the Establishment Clause to protect.”) (citation omitted). To the same effect is the decision in Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577, 587, 112 S. Ct. 2649, 2655 (1992), where the Supreme Court explained that, “[a] school official, the principal, decided that an invocation and a benediction should be given; this is a choice attributable to the State, and from a constitutional perspective it is as if a state statute decreed that the prayers must occur.” And in Jaffree v. Wallace, 705 F.2d 1526 (11th Cir. 1983), prob. juris. noted and aff’d in part, 466 U .S. 924, 104 S. Ct. 1704, cert. denied sub. nom. Bd. of Sch. Comm’rs of Mobile County v. Jaffree, 466 U.S. 926, 104 S. Ct. 1707, and aff’d in part, 472 U.S. 38, 105 S . Ct. 2479 (1985), this Court concluded that “[i]f a statute authorizing the teachers’ activities would be unconstitutio nal, then the activities, in the absence of a statute, are also unconstitutional.” Id. at 1533-35.


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