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Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 1368
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 11:57 pm: | 
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Wimps? This will come as a real surprise to the kids with lacrosse sticks or skateboards. Who dreams up this nonsense, anyway? |
phyllis
Citizen
Username: Phyllis
Post Number: 314
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 12:18 am: |
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I just have to get this off my chest...... my three year old DOESN'T wear a helmet when riding a tricycle because I'm afraid she'll hurt herself on the thing. I just feel like she needs to associate bike riding with helmets.
But as I swear as I watch her I say to myself, "you neurotic crazy overbearing mother... get a life."
OK, I feel better. |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 1019
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 6:09 am: |
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Great story, jjkatz. I'm with the father, all the way. Kids need limits, and not every incident at every developmental stage requires Socratic dialog.
I just love going to Trattoria, Roman Gourmet and similar and watching blab away, to each other or on cell phones, while their kids run riot. Some parents seem either afraid to discipline their kids in public, or completely unaware that they should. Same people get offended when teachers and principals discipline their kids' bad and disrespectful behavior...What a load of hooey! Good article, nan! |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 929
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 9:14 am: |
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If anything, I think the article is a good example of how those of us who are Boomers/Gen Xers believe the world began when we were born. No one before us has ever experienced youth, early adulthood, and now parenthood the way we have. We're either better (or in the case of this article, worse) than any other generation in history. No one overprotects like our generation! Our kids are softer, more spoiled, more indulged! Woe is us, no one knows the trouble we've seen!
Can't wait until we all start retiring. We'll of course be the best/worst/first/most extreme/what-have-you of any group of retirees in history.
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tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 1809
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 9:20 am: |
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You just never experienced any major generational disasters until 9/11, while older boomers had been through three major and earth shaking assassinations and a protacted war that took many of their generation. History and the events on the planet are now making up for the easy road your generation had (although I am sure individual families had their difficulties in the eighties and nineties.)
I think your generation is in a state of shock, frankly.
You are the grandchildren of the Dr. Spock generation. (Not the guy on Star trek, btw)
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Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 930
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 9:58 am: |
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tulip,
the sense of specialness and entitlement possessed by these generations LONG predates 9/11. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 1815
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 10:09 am: |
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Doc: I hear you. |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 1021
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 10:20 am: |
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Children! Children!
Don't make me stop this car....(just kidding) |
Chris Prenovost
Citizen
Username: Chris_prenovost
Post Number: 193
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 11:47 am: |
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Can I go out on a limb, here?
Previous generations of parents got knowledge and expertise in child rearing from their parents and grandparents. These elders knew what worked, and what didn't.
They still do. But our generation seems to think that anything coming from an older generation to be antiquated, so they ignore their parents and get their advice from so-called 'professionals' and parenting magazines. Both of whom don't give a rat's ••• about your child, they are only in it to make money. In addition, it seems that most parenting 'professionals' and the magazine writers do not have children of their own, and thus have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
Thus we have psychobabble and nonsense being fed to parents. They are told that discipline is bad, that you should be 'friends' with your child, that you should negotiate with your toddler, ect.
And we wonder why we seem to be raising a generation of whiny, undisciplined, fearful, unadventuresome wimps. |
Joel Janney
Citizen
Username: Joel_janney
Post Number: 11
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 1:17 pm: |
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Less than 30% of college-age people are going to college and getting a degree. The "generation of wimps" being referred to are a smaller subset of this minority - those whose parents have the financial and psychic means to overparent. It may be the case that the negative predictions cited above will come true for this group, which means that the new leaders will largely not come from there. That's good news. We don't want bloodline to determine success, we want churn, we want people to know that they can end up in a better place than where they came from. This is only bad news for the spoiled kids themselves. |
Earlster
Supporter
Username: Earlster
Post Number: 804
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 1:45 pm: |
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By your theory, how did W become POTUS?  |
nan
Citizen
Username: Nan
Post Number: 1650
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 1:49 pm: |
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I don't think there was ever an ideal age of parenting--when everyone knew what worked and what did not. There have always been plenty of good and bad ideas about parenting floating around and wrongheaded magazine articles and experts.
For example, in the 1920's the popular view espoused by John Watson was to never touch or kiss your child, or let them sit in your lap. People were even advised to shake hands with their children in the morning. (see: http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/0403/06.php). Bad advice is not new.
And some of that psychobabble and negotiation and friendship will not be considered a bad thing if your kid grows up to be a successful trial lawyer and buys you a house next door.
What I've discovered about parenting is that it's is important to try to understand your child as a unique human being and to try to figure out when to help and when to hold off and let him do it on his own. It's really very simple, but since every child is different there is no guide or magazine article or generational philosophy that can give you the answer in every situation. You have to make a decision on how to respond or act and hope for the best and then see how it works and adjust. Then you have to be consistent.
See what an expert I am! Just make sure you call first before you come over to my house to view this phenomena in person.
I also think parents today are very time-pressed and stressed out and sometimes (in my case) older and tired. I'd be a much better parent if I had more money and did not have to work.
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themp
Citizen
Username: Themp
Post Number: 1320
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 1:52 pm: |
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"It may be the case that the negative predictions cited above will come true for this group, which means that the new leaders will largely not come from there"
Dream on. You think this is a meritocracy? The wimps DO get degrees- maybe after 5 or 6 years and a few switches between schools. You think they'll end up at the bottom? Their parents' quest wasn't just for money, but for class status that protects them from the risk of downward mobility. |
Earlster
Supporter
Username: Earlster
Post Number: 805
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 2:03 pm: |
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Chris,
it's always good to consider the advise from elders, to not make the mistakes they did this much I agree with you. As well as the fact that magazines, authors and publishers need to make some money.
But, who says that our parents didn't make mistakes? I wouldn't wish anybody to have had the father that I had.
There are good and bad professionals out there, also every child is different and there is no one method of raising children that fits all. I honestly believe that parents should actually read more about parenting then most seem to do.
There is a really good book out there by Dr Sears, called 'The discipline book'.
Discipline and what you call 'negotiating with your toddler' are not mutually exclusive.
It often takes more effort to reason with a child, then just to yell or yank the kid around.
Of course their have to be rules and consequences, but they should be age appropriate.
There were many good points in the original post, as well as plenty that I have to disagree with. I sure don't think that we as a society are raising a generation of spoiled, whiney kids. That's just populist baiting. |
themp
Citizen
Username: Themp
Post Number: 1321
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 2:03 pm: |
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Don't forget to think about this in terms of social class. It actual exists right here in America! The Brits, lets say, have a different take on child rearing in the upper classes. It's quite strict and demanding compared to the style we have here. Our country has much more relaxed social manners and has fewer specific class indicators to impart to its kids. We have a seemingly classless society, where kids with rich parents can try to act like working class thugs or whatever the heck they want. That's why upper middle class teenagers are so accutely embarrassing to be around sometimes. They don't know who the are in the most general sense.
It's why I like Kerry's old fashioned upper class manner more than Bush's pseudo-everyman-clear-some-brush-in-a-workshirt schtick. |
Joel Janney
Citizen
Username: Joel_janney
Post Number: 12
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 2:06 pm: |
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Earlster: to the extent that my "theory" is really a theory, it's predictive of the future rather than descriptive of the past. Though under no circumstances would I describe Bush as a wimp -he's decisive, self-assured, and generally does not behave in the manner described in the article.
Nan: I agree with you. This stuff is along the same lines as the complaint that teenagers don't respect their elders like they used to, first documented in a letter from Aristotle to Plato. Even more important than the fact that the supposed ideal method of parenting varies for each child, there's the fact that kids are tough. They will adapt well to the great majority of parenting styles. They just need to know someone cares.
themp: Of course they'll get their degrees, but that hardly matters. The income disparity between Harvard graduates and graduates of other universities is very large in year one after graduation, and trails off to nearly zero by year ten. Yet a lot of Harvard graduates do go on to great heights. Who do you think is dragging down the average? (Please: I'm not disparaging folks who choose lower-paying careers or measuring worth by income, but I'm making the assumption that Harvard grads are no more likely to pursue lower-paying careers than grads of other schools).
Anyway, it's relative. Compared to other countries, opportunity for upward mobility is much greater in the USA, which is a great thing. Opportunity for downward mobility is somewhat greater also. |
themp
Citizen
Username: Themp
Post Number: 1322
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 3:11 pm: |
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"The income disparity between Harvard graduates and graduates of other universities is very large in year one after graduation, and trails off to nearly zero by year ten."
What about net worth? Lots of wealthy folks can be underemployed if they have trust funds, anticipated inheritence, etc. Someone who willingly takes a 70k prestige museum job because they have wealthy parents and someone who makes 70k by working two jobs aren't on level footing.
It's nice to daydream that that rich creep who does bong hits all day will fail, but he'll probably get sick or working in a record store, go back to school, go to law school, and become as rich as his folks. He has that luxury. Now that Pell grants are being cut, lower middle class kids will have an even harder time recovering from screw ups.
Downward mobility among the rich in America is almost unheard of. For the middle class, it is more of a possibility. |
Joel Janney
Citizen
Username: Joel_janney
Post Number: 13
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 3:26 pm: |
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The middle class is what I thought we were talking about - the folks who end up defining what people understand to be the popular culture, the folks who subscribe to Parenting magazine, read the books, etc. etc. Who said anything about trust fund babies failing? When we're talking about a "generation of wimps" we're talking about the 15-20% (at most) of children whose parents are college educated with one or both of them working professionals. Trust fund babies are what - below 1%? It's bad enough that the media/culture look to the 15-20% to define larger trends, the even smaller number of rich aren't part of this discussion.
Again, this is relative - in comparison to the rest of the world. Anyone who wants a true meritocracy would leave none of their assets for their children. |
Chris Prenovost
Citizen
Username: Chris_prenovost
Post Number: 196
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 5:50 pm: |
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Earlster, I was not trying to make an absolute point. There is plenty of good advice out there, but a lot of today's parents seem overdependent on it, they are too willing to take the word of some alleged 'expert' over their own better instincts.
A common point that keeps re-emerging on this thread is that this has all happened before, the 1920's, ancient Greece, ect. I would argue that it is a good deal worse today, at least partially because we have the material overabundance to do some real damage. |
Lydia
Citizen
Username: Lydial
Post Number: 814
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 9:49 pm: |
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Nan -
I was reading that article in line at the market and bought "Psych Today" because I thought the article was so right on.
Who hasn't been at the park and heard a (well-meaning) parent urge on their kid with frenetic cheers of "good jumping!" It just overstimulates a kid to expect bon mots for every breath they take.
Kids should make their beds, be kind to each other, and clear the table. If they go above and beyond the basic expectations they deserve praise. If they don't receive praise they should mention it -- the whole idea that every effort a child makes is worth an award is condescending and belittles actual accomplishments.
Nan - thanks for the article, all parents should read it and remember that we are first parents, we are not "cool friends", although I remember my friends' parents who were cool and looking back they were complete messes. |
nan
Citizen
Username: Nan
Post Number: 1651
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 7:51 am: |
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Psychology Today is sold at supermarket checkouts? You don't see that at Pathmark. Another surprising advantage for the affluent-- the quality of their trash publications. 
Seriously, I think we all want to throw up at parents who treat their children like precious little geniuses. I remember at my junior high graduation, my parents exchanging notes with the parents of my cousin Patty. Patty and I were horrible students, with mostly 'Ds' on our report cards. But, according to Patty's parents, "We don't care because she's SO CREATIVE." She later flunked out of music school because she thought she was such a genius she did not have to do the work of ordinary students.
But, that's just an example of extreme case--I don't think it's always so obvious how this attitude operates in the public sphere. Well-off parents--many of whom expect their children to work hard and do chores--still go way overboard to make sure their kids have an advantage. And, unlike my cousin Patty, it often does end up serving those children very well.
It's really the other kids we should be worrying about. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 4974
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 11:26 am: |
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I think a lot of the bad parenting is because parents follow their instincts all too well and don't seek advice enough. |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 508
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 12:09 pm: |
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That's amazing, Tom- I've always thought just the opposite. Too many people abdicate their own parental choices to the so-called experts instead of following their own instincts and common sense.
And too many parents want a "qualified source" to legitimize their choices instead of standing firmly and saying "this is how I see it" and weathering the criticism.
Reading updated information on parenting is a good thing, as is seeking objective feedback on the decisions we make as parents. But too many parents seek a way to raise their children and not have to be "the bad guy"- they want someone or something to take them off the hook. Being a parent is about setting the boundaries and enforcing them; no one can stand in for you when children resist or rebel. The payoff for us is being able to show them the many possibilities that life offers them if they can learn to live within the boundaries set and work toward their own future.
I think it's great when parents are informed and educated about child-rearing. But nothing learned can replace the instinctive desire to protect, care for, teach and love one's children. Sometimes the voice you need to listen to is the one within yourself. |
nan
Citizen
Username: Nan
Post Number: 1652
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 12:42 pm: |
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Well, all of this discussion is based on the assumption that we can define a good parent vs. a bad parent. Taking the "Mommy Dearests" out of the mix, I bet few of us would agree on who the bad parents and good parents out there really are.
How do we judge?
Restaurant behavior seems to be the only benchmark mentioned. But, how bad is that really? Should parents whose kids run wild in restaurants loose custody? Isn't that more a matter of personal values? When I see parents like that I consider them selfish and self-centered--but those qualities can sometimes provide a life advantage.
Some would probably say that anyone whose kid gets accepted at an ivy league school has done a good job, but the article indicates that bad parents are those that don't allow their kids to cope with life. But, as we have learned, some afflictions such as depression and suicidal tendencies may be biological in nature, and schizophrenia often appears in early college aged students.
The same goes for experts.
I used the same book mentioned by Earlster, "Discipline" and other books by William Sears. His philosophy made sense to me and I found the books very useful. But, I still remember an MOL discussion a few years ago and the parents into Ferber were sometimes anti-Sears and vise versa. Who is going to decide which are the good parents following the correct advice?
It gets complicated. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 4976
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 1:10 pm: |
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I find myself repeating the things my parents said to me, which were unhelpful and hurtful. I hear parents telling their kids that their kids DO NOT feel what they are feeling. "You're not scared to invite your friend over." or "You don't like that flavor of ice cream."
These instincts are as wrong as they can be.
I think the desire to protect and love is working pretty well for most parents. They just sometimes don't know how to do those things well. |
kathy
Citizen
Username: Kathy
Post Number: 1032
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 1:42 pm: |
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Advice from elders? My mother thought that I was a wimp for switching to decaf when I was pregnant. Her line was that she had kept on with the coffee, booze and cigarettes through four pregnancies and "You turned out all right." We had never heard of seat belts or bike helmets and "You survived."
Three of my parents' four kids survived to adulthood. By definition, the ones that survived, survived.
My parents didn't let us run around in restaurants making a ruckus; they sent us outside to run around while they enjoyed their after-dinner drinks. Today that would be considered irresponsible.
I grew up at the end of an era where parents had as many kids as they had, not as many as they wanted. They did not feel as in control of every aspect of their kids' existences as parents do today. The other side of that was that if things went wrong, they did not assume that it was their fault. Today, when we know more and have more control, we assume that we should know everything and that everything is within our control. That still isn't true. |
Joel Janney
Citizen
Username: Joel_janney
Post Number: 14
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 2:00 pm: |
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Tom: "I think the desire to protect and love is working pretty well for most parents. They just sometimes don't know how to do those things well."
I think that for the vast majority of families where the first part is true, the children will turn out true to themselves - that is, as adults, they will be the person they would have been even if a different parenting style had been used. To put it another way, only a very, very small minority of 30 year olds can suggest that they are the way they are because of how they were raised.
People, and especially younger people, are tough and resilient. The individual will break through. |
weekends
Citizen
Username: Weekends
Post Number: 41
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 4:27 pm: |
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Why are we talking about our kids for this "Are We Becoming a Nation of Wimps?" thread? Go the the Home FixIt section and check out the "Careful Window Washer" thread. Holy smokes. |
Lydia
Citizen
Username: Lydial
Post Number: 815
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 6:44 pm: |
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Nan - they sell "Psych Today" at Whole Foods.
Another great parenting resource you mentioned is WIlliam Sears - I bought his "Birth Book" when I was pregnant with my first and read it (like a desperate mantra) while I was in labor. I went through transition reading his wise, calm advice that I could handle it. I sort of went a little too far and almost gave birth in the Holland Tunnel, but it was all good in the end!
I quietly adhired to Sears' "attachment parenting", despite the grousing I received from family and friends. Attachment Parenting just was good common sense. Keep the baby attached as much as possible and they won't fuss because you are available. What used to annoy me was all the "well-meaning" friends who told me that I was spoiling my babies.
Whatever works for someone is the right parenting method, I tend to think that parents who go out of their way to lecture and criticize are the parents who most insecure.
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nan
Citizen
Username: Nan
Post Number: 1669
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 1, 2005 - 3:29 pm: |
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You could be right. I've noticed the most criticism from stay-at-home mothers. Us working moms tend to have a secret "I won't call DYFS on you if you don't call on me" pact. We are quick to pitch in and help cover up the mistakes without casting blame. Something has to be consistent and long-standing for me to start to judge.
I wonder how popular Sears is now? I have not had a baby for a while now. I think a lot of that "authentic--recognize the humanity" playground talk that you were mentioning comes from poorly practiced interpretation of his books. My kid's fabulous teacher at the Y--Miss Jean could talk like that and make you realize how it was SUPPOSED to sound like when done right. What's interesting is how some of his ideas, such as sleeping with your baby, are just normal behavior in 3rd world countries.
When I had my son in 1996, all my middle class coworkers and Brooklyn neighbors were horrified that I let my kid sleep in bed. Some of them even woke their kids up when the put them to bed sleeping so they could take note that they were in their own beds ALONE. Some of them had the kids on a clock schedule for feeding. I found more compatible friends at my son's daycare where many were too exhausted to listen to a kid scream in a crib.
Now, all my coworkers are Indian and they sleep with their kids for a long time--sometimes up to adolescence. So, now I feel like I have someone other than Sears to go to for advice on child rearing. Except when the subject gets around to Kumon. |
Lydia
Citizen
Username: Lydial
Post Number: 816
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 1, 2005 - 6:26 pm: |
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I'm a stay-at-home Mom, but I worked out of the home, so I sort of straddled both worlds.
IMO - both Moms who work away and Moms who stay home gripe a bit about the other choices, it would be good if everyone just supported each other. Whatever route we take it's a hard adjustment to become a mother.
My (funny) attachment parenting story:
In 1995 my (then) baby was in my Sara's Ride peeking out of my coat -- I was taking a walk in Hoboken trying to get her to sleep and stave off a long winter day. I went to an old shipyard that I liked - sort of lost in my thoughts.
Anyhow, A van pulled up and 3 women got out and offered me an egg-salad sandwich. They seemed nice enough so I accepted. They made chit chat about the weather and handed me a plastic bag and said "God bless". It was a little weird and awkward, but they seemed sweet.
While I was walking home I opened the bag and it had a bottle, Lion King pajamas, diapers and a bunch of coupons. I thought it was so cool - Good Samaritans!
When I got home I called my Mom and told her about my encounter with the "nice people" and she pointed out that they must have thought I was homeless with my little baby tucked under my coat wandering around the shipyards!
I love Dr. Sears - I always give his books to new Moms, not everyone gets it, so sometimes you get unwanted advice and other times you get a bag of pajamas!
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