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Message |
    
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 4240
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 9:29 am: | 
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"Obviously Mamabear is off the wall. If I walked into my Synagogue and saw Christmas books for sale my first call would be the Rabbi and my second would be the President of the Congregation to get the stuff out of there. Please. It’s a Synagogue.)"
hmm, I guess you could say the same thing about 30% of the students who aren't Jewish. Ashear would call his Rabbi to throw them out as well. |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 330
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 10:10 am: |
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No Straw, I don't think so. Why are you trying to pick a fight with synagogue-member Jews by insulting us and our rabbis? |
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 4241
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 10:24 am: |
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because I'm disappointed with the approach your institution has taken in addressing your non-Jewish members. And I believe you people have treated Mamabear with the ultimate in disprespect as well. All should apologize to her, including the Rabbi.
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Soda
Supporter
Username: Soda
Post Number: 2313
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 10:42 am: |
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susan 1014:
Re: "Soda - quit making uninformed assertions about Oheb Shalom/conservative synagogues. Clearly you don't know them very well."
Susan, Did I mention Oheb Shalom?
Ever?
No.
Here's what I said: "Would you, "as a Jew", feel more comfortable establishing pre-school boundaries around your Jewish kids, thereby precluding their coming in regular normalized group contact with those not of your faith? Well, there are plenty of Conservative and Orthodox synagogues that'll accommodate you, and allow you to be comfortable in knowing that the segregation you desire will be enforced."
Re: Arguing with Strawberry: Don't waste your time or energy.
Peace out.
-s.
BTW: For the record, before we joined TSTI many years ago, we were, briefly, congregants of Oheb Shalom; my wife (a Gratz grad, if you know what that means) and I decided to affiliate with TSTI because we felt so much more comfortable and welcomed there. There is great diversity -- and great unity -- among the synagogues in our area, and perhaps you should think about not picking fights with those of your own faith over such a silly issue.
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mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 4491
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 12:21 pm: |
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Sheesh. Thanks for validating my atheism. |
Ukealalio
Citizen
Username: Ukealalio
Post Number: 1652
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 1:44 pm: |
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I don't want to prolong this agony any longer but to
put this into very simple perspective:
STRICT repeat STRICT, Christian dogma says that you do not get a place in heaven unless you accept Jesus. Do most Christians believe this ?, I don't think so, at least not the ones that I know (and I know more Christians then Jews, just simple demographics). Now Santa Clause is a symbol, one that is related to Christmas which is the celebration of Jesus Christs birth. Xmas and Santa Claus have bein secularized and commercialized to the point where countries with very small Christian populations are now celebrating it (like Japan). This does not negate the fact that the real purpose is to celebrate Christs birth. A Synagogue should not be criticized for not allowing sales of merchandise which can be seen as negating their reason for being, just as a Church should not be criticized for not selling Jewish merchandise, which can be interpreted the same way.
I don't particularly like any organized religions strict Dogma (thats why I send my son to a secular Jewish School) but I respect the rights of people who do. Lets respect the right of Synagogues to be Synagogues, Churchs to be Churchs, Mosques to be Mosques, etc, etc. and so on and get on with our lives. The fact that some of these institutions offer terrific services to those outside their faith is terrific but don't expect them to be everything to everybody. It is not a secular isnstitution and the dogma attached to this institution should not have to be challenged (a strong word , I know but some would see selling Xmas items as a challenge).
Please lets end this and if I'm wrong on any of the above, let me know. I certainly don't have all the answers. |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 333
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 3:47 pm: |
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Soda, I was responding to mammabear's mention of Oheb, yours of conservative synagogues.
Throughout this debate I've been careful to keep any Jewish sectarian opinions that I might have out of my discussion.
You are the one who went out of your way to say (twice) that "there are plenty of Conservative and Orthodox synagogues that'll accommodate you, and allow you to be comfortable in knowing that the segregation you desire will be enforced"
Your saying that isn't very inclusive or understanding of Conservative Judaism (even if you did once belong to Oheb). The use of the word "segregation" seemed inflammatory to me. Sorry if I missed your intent.
But you are right that I don't want to extend this into a sectarian fight, when we are really on the same side - I just don't like being accused of casting the first stone. |
Mark Fuhrman
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 1102
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 5:16 pm: |
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Very old joke--as old as the religion:
A Jew was stranded on a desert island. After several years, he was discovered. He was proud of his survival and showed his liberators around the island. They were perplexed to see that he had actually built two synagogues to worship in. So they asked him why. “Oh, that one I worship in,” he replied. “And the other one?" He replied, "Oh, feh, that one I would never set foot in!" |
Taylor M
Citizen
Username: Anotherusername
Post Number: 251
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 5:25 pm: |
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Has anyone here actually CALLED the Temple to ASK what actually happened? Maybe I will tomorrow. I'll report back what I find out.
Wonder how they'll feel knowing this conversation is going on. |
Ukealalio
Citizen
Username: Ukealalio
Post Number: 1655
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 6:21 pm: |
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Mark- |
Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 145
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 6:21 pm: |
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Well, this thread has become shamefully nasty and totally inconsistent with the Judaeo-Christian Ethic. By the way, has anyone noticed that Mammabear kicked off by using the shortcut "XMAS" in naming the thread?? As a Christian, I would never take that particular shortcut. I think it's offensive when used by someone who professes a Christian belief. Isn't the real problem here that the Temple was striving to avoid a hypocritical act by refusing to raise funds selling Christmas items????? I'll bet they could make a lot of money if they opened up a Christmas Tree sale in the parking lot. But, true to their principles, they don't.
I applaud that. Let's move on. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 5074
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 6:31 pm: |
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I have read that Jesus signed his name with an X (or the equivalent in its time) and the X has often stood for Christ. Many Christians use Xtian to mean Christian. Take offense if you like, but many consider it utterly respectful. |
ML
Supporter
Username: Ml1
Post Number: 2178
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 8:08 pm: |
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When I was in Catholic school, one of the priests taught us that the abbreviation Xmas was perfectly OK, because in one of the ancient languages (Greek perhaps?), the name "Christ" began with a letter that resembled an X. |
ashear
Supporter
Username: Ashear
Post Number: 1638
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 8:57 pm: |
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G-d bless google
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
Xmas
SYLLABICATION: X·mas
PRONUNCIATION: krsms, ksms
NOUN: Christmas.
ETYMOLOGY: From X, the Greek letter chi, first letter of Greek Khrstos, Christ. See Christ.
USAGE NOTE: Xmas has been used for hundreds of years in religious writing, where the X represents a Greek chi, the first letter of , “Christ.” In this use it is parallel to other forms like Xtian, “Christian.” But people unaware of the Greek origin of this X often mistakenly interpret Xmas as an informal shortening pronounced (ksms). Many therefore frown upon the term Xmas because it seems to them a commercial convenience that omits Christ from Christmas.
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Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 146
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 9:16 am: |
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Tom: Who knows? Maybe you're right and Mammabear had the Greek in mind. You often see the X superimposed over the P (chi rho) the first two letters of the name Christos. We never wrote Christmas Xmas in any Roman Catholic school I ever attended. Remembering that this was not his name, but rather a title given him by his disciples (specifically Peter in Mark 8:29, an uneducated Galilean fisherman who probably didn't speak Greek and most likely used the Hebrew or Aramaic equivalent). I seriously doubt Jesus signed his name with an X. What is your source? In fact I am not aware of the existence of any writing attributed to Jesus or any Bibical account of him making his mark. One good thing has come of this, though, we have turned the focus of the tread in a new direction. |
singlemalt
Citizen
Username: Singlemalt
Post Number: 789
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 11:00 am: |
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I am a member of TSTI and did some investigating into Mamabear's concerns. Without going into too much detail, the root of the problem is how the situation was handled the day of the sale. Rather than acting emotionally, the temple employeee who demanded the books be removed should have followed proper channels and not been so abrasive the day of the sale in front of so many people.
The proper course of action would have been to inquire, ask questions, and then make a determination on how to proceed in the future. |
Ukealalio
Citizen
Username: Ukealalio
Post Number: 1658
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 11:03 am: |
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Agree Joe R. A thread that was spinning out of control, has now turned into a theology seminar. |
shoshannah
Citizen
Username: Shoshannah
Post Number: 668
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 1:29 pm: |
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Thread drift: Mark's joke reminds me of an old Israeli joke (BTW, most Israelis are ardently nonreligious).
I never go to synagogue, but the synagogue I never go to is Orthodox! |
Copperfield
Citizen
Username: Copperfield
Post Number: 107
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 5:05 pm: |
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>>I am a member of TSTI and did some investigating into Mamabear's concerns. Without going into too much detail, the root of the problem is how the situation was handled the day of the sale. Rather than acting emotionally, the temple employeee who demanded the books be removed should have followed proper channels and not been so abrasive the day of the sale in front of so many people.
The proper course of action would have been to inquire, ask questions, and then make a determination on how to proceed in the future.>>
Somehow I had the feeling that was going to be the case. I can understand then, why MammaBear was so upset initially, since it sounds like the situation was handled poorly.
What I don't get is why she is *still* upset- surely the explanations from people on MOL should have allowed her to realize why someone might have acted so rashly and to understand why many Jews are sensitive to any representation of Christmas (or Xmas!) Or why a synagogue might not want such symbols on its premesis and why that may take precendence over her feelings of exclusion.
I'm also surprised the fact that the other parents at the preschool seemed to support her didn't cue her in to the fact that she wasn't being cast out to the wolves.
TSTI wouldn't be the first preschool to have conflicts with the synagogue that sponsors it- I've found such conflicts to be fairly common given that the trustees of the synagogue are not the same people who have kids of preschool age. |
Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 147
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 5:32 pm: |
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Maybe the lesson in all of this, if Singlemalt is right, is that much of the bad feelings and misunderstandings can be avoided if we act with sensitivity, even if we know our decisions and opinions will not be met with universal approval. If we all can take a deep breath and exhale slowly, Mammabear can perhaps find a way to keep her kids in school at Sharey Tefilo because the pre-school program there is great (don't know personally, but I've heard it said). Wasn't that the point to begin with? I have found out from Tom and others that my long held attitude toward the usage of "Xmas" was way off base and in fact I learned that I had within my own store of knowledge all of the facts I would ever have needed to reason to the right answer, but found that my bias provided a convenient shortcut. Thanks, Tom. These Boards are great, but only if your mind is open and you are prepared to learn something new. Thanks for the great dialogue. |
Debby
Citizen
Username: Debby
Post Number: 1520
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 8:57 pm: |
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Right on, Joe R.
I think this would be a great place for Dave and Jamie to put a cap on the thread. |
mammabear
Citizen
Username: Mammabear
Post Number: 169
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 9:12 pm: |
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Amen...
an appropriate, universal ending |
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 4259
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 6:37 am: |
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Now, would someone please explain why Debby was let go as a teacher from the school?  |
Debby
Citizen
Username: Debby
Post Number: 1527
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 8:10 pm: |
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Straw - Haven't you noticed? I moved away a year and a half ago!
You have new neighbors now. Go knock on the door and say hi...or send a harassing e-mail. |
marinab
Citizen
Username: Marinab
Post Number: 84
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:19 pm: |
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well i'm not treading down this well-trod path since i agree with all of you that it's crazy to expect a jewish pre-school, reform or not, to sell Christmas stuff.
but i will add--as a former parent who sent a kid to Sharey-Tefilo--it's hardly a diverse, multicultural school. i know that's what, informally, its zietgeist is advertised as, but the pre-school is not. i don't know why it gets billed as such.
when i and another friend mentioned that we wished they would seek more diverse families, it was never taken up. One of the reasons we left--and we are a mixed/Jewish home--was because the school did not seem all that diverse. (not the only reason) Instead we'd rather our son received his Jewish education in Sunday classes and truly experience a wider range of children and cultures in his school experience. |
Mark Fuhrman
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 1121
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 8:04 am: |
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The thread that will not die..... |
Soda
Supporter
Username: Soda
Post Number: 2342
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 8:57 am: |
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Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 149
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 1:48 pm: |
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Wait a minute. You mean Jewish kids go to Sunday school?? |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 342
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 2:03 pm: |
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Yes, at least at our synagogue. Hebrew school is Sunday morning, while children's services are on Saturday morning. Bigger kids also go to Hebrew School at least one day a week after school (unless they go to a Jewish private school with Hebrew in the curriculum). Adding Hebrew language to all of the other things taught in a religious school curriculum ups the time commitment, I think.
Unfortunately, at our house, this schedule means that Hebrew school gets good attendance, but actual Shabbat services less good attendance, since we need a slow morning sometimes! |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 525
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 3:47 pm: |
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Let it go, folks...Passover/Easter are fast approaching. |
Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 1447
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 4:11 pm: |
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I hear Bnai Jeshrun is selling Crucifixes as a passover fundraiser.
Just kidding, just kidding. |
Soda
Supporter
Username: Soda
Post Number: 2346
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 5:20 pm: |
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Ukealalio
Citizen
Username: Ukealalio
Post Number: 1673
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 6:03 pm: |
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Actually Michael, selling paintings of the Last Supper would not be totally out of place as you could consider that one of the most famous Seders. |
Taylor M
Citizen
Username: Anotherusername
Post Number: 255
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 7:50 pm: |
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I thought they were selling chocolate bunnies and jellybeans for their fundraiser? |
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