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Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 567
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 3, 2005 - 11:51 am: | 
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cjc, there's a difference between "left-wing" and radical. You really think it's extremist to propose universal daycare or pre-school? I'm asking because hte question was about radical, not "left-wing" (or maybe I missed it... quite possible).
It's not like they are saying "children should be forced to watch two men having sex." That's radical and extreme. Saying we should tear down cities to provide grassland for buffalo is extreme and radical. Suggesting that it would be bneficial to provide child care so that parents can take jobs that they otherwise would not be able to afford (e.g. minimum wage jobs) shouldn't be all that radical.
Now don't assume, just because I don't find these ideas to be radical, that I agree with them. The definition of radical is not "different from what I believe." |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 2954
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 3, 2005 - 1:48 pm: |
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Sorry -- was responding to Paul's request of Strawberry for "left wing." He didn't ask for radical. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 570
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 3, 2005 - 3:27 pm: |
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cjc, my bad (did I really say that?). I misread what you were replying to. I guess just about anything that Democrats stand for is "left-wing" to a conservative, just as almost anything that Republicans stand for can be considered "right wing" by Liberals. |
Mustt_mustt
Citizen
Username: Mustt_mustt
Post Number: 185
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 3, 2005 - 8:33 pm: |
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Is There One Senator Who Will Stand Up for Black Voters?
Democrat Senators on the Hot Seat...Again
By DAVE LINDORFF
www.counterpunch.org
Perhaps the most powerful moment in Michael Moore's film "Fahrenheit 9-11" was the stony silence in the hall of the joint session of Congress as a line of African- American and other non-white representatives stood up and pleaded for just one senator to issue an official challenge to the Florida electoral college delegation and its vote in favor of candidate George Bush.
This Thursday, we are destined to have a repeat of that dramatic event.
Congressman John Conyers, (D-Michigan), the representative who has chaired hearings into the Republican-led efforts in Ohio to keep people from registering, to keep voters from voting, and to mess with the vote totals to keep the vote for Democrat John Kerry as low as possible-in short the "vote suppression" effort that was deliberately made over the course not just of election day but of the months leading up to the balloting--has vowed to challenge the state's delegation to the Electoral College.
Under the Constitution, it requires only one representative and one senator to initiate a challenge, which would then mandate an official inquiry into the state's election, and delay certification of the national presidential election results.
While it is unlikely, with a Congress firmly in the hands of the Republican Party, with the attorney general's office packed with Bush appointees, and with the FBI run by Republican party hacks, that any serious effort would be made to find out what actually happened in Ohio, such an investigation would at least serve to embarrass Republican officials, and to undermine the ludicrous Bush claim of a mandate for his second term of office.
With so many leading Democrats in Congress and the Democratic National Committee falling over each other calling for a cave-in to Republicans on issues from abortion rights and prayer in schools to social security "reform" and foreign policy, it will be fascinating to see if this time around, somebody on the senate side has the guts to join Conyers in his call for a challenge to the Ohio delegation.
One big difference in the new Senate, which has a net five more Republicans than the last one, is that it has a new black senator, Democrat Barack Obama from Illinois. Obama has not made his views known about the Conyers' call but he is sure to be at least respectful of this senior member of the Congressional Black Caucus. A number of other more liberal members of the Senate-including Russ Feingold (D-Wis.) and Jon Corzine (D-NJ), the latter eyeing a run for governor in New Jersey where Democratic candidates depend on heavy support in the state's African-American communities--clearly embarrassed by their silence in the widely viewed Moore documentary, may also want to take a stand this time around.
Democrats, particularly in Ohio, Illinois, Wisconsin and New Jersey, but also across the country, may want to send messages to these and other critical liberal senators (how about the loser himself, Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts?), urging them to heed the call from their African-American colleagues from the House this time, instead of lamely sitting on their hands.
No doubt, thanks to Moore, there will be more than just a private filmmaker's camera in the hall this time around, panning the Democratic senators in their seats. (Last time, the event didn't even make the news, despite the public passion over the outcome of the Florida vote in 2000, which is what made Moore's film sequence so striking.)
The 2004 efforts to suppress the Democratic vote, made in not just Ohio but in Florida, Nevada, New Mexico and many other states at the hands of the Republican Party and its elected officials in state and county offices across the country, are a scandal of epic proportions, reminiscent of the old days of Jim Crow in the South. Whether or not these schemes and frauds altered the outcome of this latest presidential race, they need to be exposed and ended.
A Congressional challenge and inquiry would be a great place to start.
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 2959
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 3, 2005 - 9:37 pm: |
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I'd wager there's more fraud in Cook County, IL. But long as the right people win, I suppose it's OK.
And new things in WA state. Seems more people voted than were registered.
This is the problem Democrats have. Their attention to democracy is hardly universal and entirely self-serving. Ashcroft -- he let it pass and lost (?) gracefully. Same with Thune in 2000. And Bush in Iowa in 2000, and New Mexico. Could have contested WI in 2000 and 2004 as I recall the reports. Nope -- it was what it was, slashed tires and smokes-for-homeless-votes included.
Democrat voting districts and precincts all, I might add, staffed with their own knuckleheads and machines. Keep counting until you win...then shut it down. |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 938
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 3, 2005 - 9:47 pm: |
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If Republicans have evidence of vote fraud by Democrats, it's not "graceful," to let it go. They should investigate, and if necessary pursue it. Democracy requires transparent election processes that are as fair as humanly possible. Fraud should be prosecuted, regardless of who perpetrates it. |
Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 207
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 4, 2005 - 6:19 am: |
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Strawberry,
I've interspersed my comments with your examples (which are numbered) of "left wing" ideas which you've re-labeled as "radical liberal."
(1) radical liberals want the U.N. making decisions for the U.S.
The UN Charter is the basis for international law and stability. It sanctions military action by one country against another only when that country is under attack or under imminent threat. This is fully consistent with centrist American values and traditions.
(2) Radical liberals believe big businesses are corrupt and should be punished with higher taxes to support social programs to support the unemployed. This in order to assure that an individual who never works, never has to look for a job.
The Article 1 of the Constitution provides for taxes to provide for the general welfare of the United States. Taxes paid by businesses and individuals to help unemployed workers and their families survive economically until new employment is found are a mainstream program.
There may be individuals out there who fit your description but they don't include any of the Democratic leaders that you've mentioned.
(3) Radical liberals oppose the most effective way to curb serious crime, the death penalty.
Homicide rates are higher in states with death penalties than in states without death penalties. Republican Governor Ryan of Illinois took great leadership on this issue when he declared a moratorium on executions because of the high rate of wrongful convictions in death penalty cases.
(4) Radical liberals support the disgraceful partial birth abortion.
I'm not well-informed on this issue, but my understanding is that this is a procedure used to save the mother's life.
(5) Radical liberals believe in socialized medicine.
I think the Medicare system is a good model that should be extended to everyone, and I believe the aggregate cost would be less than the current system which denies insurance to tens of millions
Such a program would not involve a government "takeover" of the health industry and would enable doctors to remain in private practice. I don't know if this ideas qualifies as "socialist" or not. But I think it makes good sense.
(6) Radical liberals hate America. Always have.
I think there are more individuals on the right who hate America -- who especially those who hate our racial and ethnic diversity -- than there are "haters" on the left.
(7) Radical liberals are in short, socialists.
If this is so, their model of socialism is Canada.
(8) Jesse Jackson, Michael Moore, Al Gore, Rev. Sharpton and Howard Dean are all radical libs. These are all current policies and policy makers of today's Democratic party.
I would tend to agree that these people are "radical liberals." But they are outsiders and had virtually no input into the Kerry campaign.
(9) one more thing and the most important point of them all. A radical lib has no solutions, just complaints. This was Kerry's biggest mistake. He did an awful lot of whining, but when asked what his plan would be, he never offered one.. Not once. Radical liberal attitude cost him the election.
I think there's some truth to what you say here, but the reason is that Kerry followed your advice and kept the "radical liberals" outside the loop. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2840
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 4, 2005 - 7:32 am: |
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Paul,
Although it is futile to try to acquaint Strawberry with the facts, your response was well-stated. |
Ukealalio
Citizen
Username: Ukealalio
Post Number: 1609
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 4, 2005 - 10:27 am: |
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Straw-He never lets the truth get in the way of a good story. |
Chris Prenovost
Citizen
Username: Chris_prenovost
Post Number: 214
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 4, 2005 - 12:14 pm: |
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I think people may be concentrating on the wrong areas to explain Kerry's loss.
You guys are looking at policy, not image. And the American people vote on image.
Kerry is a decorated war hero. Bush, Cheney and Ashcroft are draft dodgers. Yet that weakling Kerry allowed the swift boat liars to define him. He had a golden opportunity during the last debate to point his finger at the President and accuse him of being a cowardly draft dodger, but failed to do so.
This President has spent the last four years throwing away the Clinton budget surplus. And Kerry barely mentioned it.
Bush has been telling people that there is, or was, a direct link between Saddam Hussein and Al Queda. A flat out lie. Kerry failed to capitalize on that, too. Bush and his gang of incompetent dopes handed Kerry and the democrats more opportunities to win this election than I can count. And Kerry muffed them all.
Bitching about Ohio will do you no good. Complaining about voting irregularities will do you no good. Connecting with the voters with a winning image will do a lot of good. |
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 4215
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 4, 2005 - 12:43 pm: |
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Chris,
talk about sour grapes. I love hearing libs whine like that.
Paul,
Thanks for response..I always appreciate your posts and when I have some more time later today I will followup.
Tjohn,
What, nothing to say about how brilliant the German military is?  |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 939
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 4, 2005 - 12:44 pm: |
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I really don't see how any investigation in Ohio will do anything for Kerry.
But the investigation needs to be carried out to ensure better, fairer election procedures in the future. There is very strong evidence that Ohio election officials did in fact disenfranchise thousands of voters. Unfortunately, the word "disenfranchised" has been so misused that it's nearly discredited for ANY use. But in this case, that's what happened. And it was very simple and elegant to carry out - just send fewer voting machines to precincts that were heavily skewed toward African Americans and college students, and more voting machines to suburban and rural precincts.
The resulting lines (some up to 5 hours) in places like Cleveland and Columbus ensured that some people would give up and go home. No recount, manual or otherwise can measure the effect of incredibly long lines on voting in Ohio last Election Day.
Future elections will better reflect the will of the voters with just a few changes like requiring a certain number of voting machines per voter, declaring Election Day a national holiday, or allowing early voting. But that won't happen without a full accounting of what happened on Election Day 2004, in Ohio and elsewhere. |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 940
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 4, 2005 - 12:47 pm: |
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here's an example of how voting machines were distributed in one Ohio county:
http://copperas.com/machinery/ |
Chris Prenovost
Citizen
Username: Chris_prenovost
Post Number: 215
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 4, 2005 - 1:10 pm: |
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Strawberry, I hate to burst your bubble, but. . .
I AM A REPUBLICAN!
An old fashioned republican. Who believes in old fashioned republican things, like:
Balanced budgets, or better yet, surpluses to pay down the debt.
Small government, the idea that the government that governs best is that which governs least. In the words of Ronald Reagan, the job of the republican party is to get the government off the peoples backs and out of their pockets.
Honesty in government.
Freedom, as in personal freedom.
Bush and his crew have taken us in the wrong direction in all of the above areas. |
Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 208
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 4, 2005 - 1:17 pm: |
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I don't think it's good strategy to base your campaign on which candidate has the most military experience. Direct military experience has little to do with being commander-in-chief these days. Although I opposed some of his war actions (especially the 76-day bombing of Yugoslavia) Clinton (who avoided the draft) probably had the best military record of any US President, if you look at objectives achieved compared with casualties taken.
I agree that Kerry failed to take the fight to Bush. The policy of no attacks on the President at the Democratic convention was the most ludicrous example of all.
But I think you're wrong about Ohio. This is another example of Kerry being a wimp -- or to invoke Senator Robert Byrd's image of the Senate Democrats -- acting like a "whipped dog fearing his master."
Kerry should be out in front, demanding an investigation into the exit poll discrepancies, and demanding a re-vote in Ohio based on mass violations of voting rights, especially against African Americans.
If the situation were reversed, the entire Republican Party would be screaming to overturn the Ohio results. Republicans fight for their interests.
Kerry has one more chance to redeem his historical legacy. This Thursday at the joint session of Congress, he will have the opportunity to co-sign Rep. John Conyers' challenge of the Ohio results. As portrayed in Farenheit 911, a Senator's signature is needed to open a 2-hour debate on the challenge.
If anyone wants to encourage Kerry -- and Lautenberg and Corzine for that matter -- to join John Conyers on Thursday to stand up for the integrity of the election process, here are the relevant email addresses:
http://kerry.senate.gov/bandwidth/contact/email.html
http://lautenberg.senate.gov/webform.html
http://corzine.senate.gov/contact.cfm
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notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 1847
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 5, 2005 - 3:17 pm: |
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From the PAC "Friends of John Kerry"....
No American citizen should wake up the morning after the election and worry their vote wasn't counted. No citizen should be denied at the polls if they are eligible to vote. And, as the greatest, wealthiest nation on earth, our citizens should never be forced to vote on old, unaccountable and non transparent voting machines from companies controlled by partisan activists.
Tomorrow, members of Congress will meet to certify the results of the 2004 presidential election. I will not be taking part in a formal protest of the Ohio Electors.
Despite widespread reports of irregularities, questionable practices by some election officials and instances of lawful voters being denied the right to vote, our legal teams on the ground have found no evidence that would change the outcome of the election.
But, that does not mean we should abandon our commitment to addressing those problems that happened in Ohio. We must act today to make sure they never happen again.
I urge you to join me in using this occasion to highlight our demand that Congress commit itself this year to reforming the electoral system. A Presidential election is a national federal election but we have different standards in different states for casting and counting votes. We need a national federal standard to solve the problems that occurred in the 2004 election. I will propose legislation to help achieve this.
Florida 2000 was a wake up call. But the Republicans who control Congress ignored it. Will they now ignore what happened in 2004?
There are nearly 3,000,000 of you receiving this email. We accomplished so much together during the campaign. Now let's use our power to make sure that at least one good thing comes from the voting rights problems of the 2004 election. If we want to force real action on election reform, we've got to demand that congressional leaders hold full hearings. Make sure they hear from you and help hold them accountable.
Speaker Dennis Hastert: 1-202-225-0600
Leader Bill Frist: 1-202-224-3135
And please report that you've made your call right here:
http://www.johnkerry.com/signup/electoral_reform.php
I want every vote counted because Americans have to know that the votes they stood in line for, fought for, and strived so hard to cast in an election, are counted. We must make sure there are no questions or doubts in future elections. It's critical to our democracy that we investigate and act to prevent voting irregularities and voter intimidation across the country. We can't stand still as Congressional leaders seek to sweep well-founded voter concerns under the rug.
Please join with me in calling Speaker Hastert and Leader Frist and telling them that you want action on election reform now.
A recent report from Representative John Conyers (D-Michigan) reveals very troubling questions that have not yet been answered by Ohio election officials. I commend the Democratic National Committee for its announcement this week that the DNC will be investing resources and reaching out to non-partisan academics in a long term study of Ohio voting irregularities. I am only sorry that we haven't seen the same from Ohio Secretary of State Blackwell and GOP officials.
Congress must play a positive, proactive role on this issue. That's why I will soon introduce legislation to reform our election system, ensuring transparency and accountability in our voting system and that all Americans have an opportunity to vote and have their vote counted.
Please remember to let us know that you made your call when you're done. We're hoping to ensure House and Senate leaders' offices hear our demand for action on election reform in meaningful way. Please take a moment to let us know you have made your call here: http://www.johnkerry.com/signup/electoral_reform.php
Thank you,
John Kerry
P.S. Thanks to all those who participated in our USO "phone home" campaign last week. The totals are coming in from the USO, and they are thrilled with your generosity and support for our brave men and women in uniform. We will send you totals as we get them. |
jerkyboy
Citizen
Username: Jerkyboy
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 5, 2005 - 10:59 pm: |
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I know I am knew, but this is hilarious! |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 1848
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 6, 2005 - 10:20 am: |
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Hilarious? How so, "knew" kid? Inaccurate or manipulated vote counting is funny to you? |
Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 209
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 6, 2005 - 10:24 am: |
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SENATOR BOXER SIGNS
CONYERS CHALLENGE
Air America (1190 am) has just announced that California Senator Barbara Boxer has signed the challenge to the Ohio election results by Rep. John Conyers.
The challenge will now be heard (about 1 pm today) -- assuming that the rules are followed.
If you'd like to ask Senators Lautenberg and Corzine to ask them to stand up and join Senator Boxer and Rep. Conyers, here is the contact info:
(to email)
Lautenberg: http://lautenberg.senate.gov/webform.html
Corzine: http://corzine.senate.gov/contact.cfm
(phone)
Lautenberg: (Washington) (202) 224-3224 (Newark) (973) 639-8700
Corzine: (Washington) (202) 224-4744 (Newark) (973) 645-3030
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Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 4222
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 6, 2005 - 7:13 pm: |
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Bush defeats challenge
"Democratic leaders distanced themselves from the effort, which many in the party worried would make them look like sore losers. Bush won Ohio by 118,000 votes and carried the national contest by 3.3 million votes, and Kerry himself — meeting with troops in the Middle East — did not support the challenge."
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sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 12913
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 6, 2005 - 7:55 pm: |
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You know that the challenge has got to be completely asinine if even Charles Schumer isn't signing up for it...
"My view is that you don't hold up the election unless there is concrete real evidence of fraud. I haven't seen that," Schumer said Thursday.
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Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 4223
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 6, 2005 - 8:00 pm: |
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Frankly I'm concerned Barbara Boxer may not be well. |
jerkyboy
Citizen
Username: Jerkyboy
Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 6, 2005 - 9:30 pm: |
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Stop beating around the Bush already.
kerry lost.
George won.
Get over it.
"move-on" already. |
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