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Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 666
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 5, 2005 - 4:11 pm: | 
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Guy, I'm not even saying we shouldn't have rounded up and imprisoned as many suspects as we could find. Imprisonment in a time of war is one thing. But was there a need shove lit cigarettes in their ears? Or sexually abuse them? The rest of the world, rightly I imagine, already envisioned Bush's America as bullying and sadistic. It creates MORE enemies. The promotion of his torture lacky reinforces this.
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Guy
Supporter
Username: Vandalay
Post Number: 451
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 5, 2005 - 4:15 pm: |
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Mustt, I haven't smoked since 1987 .
Iraq Is a Sovereign Country
Iraq Fact of the Day
At 10:26 am in Baghdad on June 28, 2004, Iraq again became a sovereign country. Prime Minister Allawi received the Transfer of Sovereignty document from the highest ranking legal authority in Iraq, Judge Medhat al Mahmood. Judge Mahmood received the document from Ambassador L. Paul Bremer in a small ceremony in Baghdad. Iraq is now a sovereign nation working toward a democratic and prosperous future.
Source: Iraqi Prime Minister Allawi
Robert,I agree that Abu Ghraib was a huge black eye on this country. It has been dealt with and people have been punished. With that said if stripping an terrorist naked saves an American life most in this country would support it. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 667
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 5, 2005 - 4:17 pm: |
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"Iraq Is a Sovereign Country"
I guess the war is over and we can leave, right? |
Guy
Supporter
Username: Vandalay
Post Number: 452
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 5, 2005 - 4:25 pm: |
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We have been in Bosnia and Afghanistan for awhile also. |
Mustt_mustt
Citizen
Username: Mustt_mustt
Post Number: 189
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 5, 2005 - 4:45 pm: |
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Allawi's govt is not an elected one. His govt was placed in power by the US which is presently OCCUPYING the nation. Allawi is a puppet of the US - plain and simple. AS Robert suggested, the US should leave Iraq, then it will become truly sovereign. The transfer of power procedure should be taken with a huge bag of salt. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 2968
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 5, 2005 - 7:02 pm: |
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Conflating Abu Ghraib with Administration endorsed 'torture' at Gitmo is nothing more than an attempt to smear Bush via an AG nominee who will be confirmed.
Abu Ghraib abuses were not condoned by the highest levels, and we're prosecuting those behind them now. Those at Gitmo were enemy combantants -- not part of an organized army -- and Geneva doesn't apply. END OF STORY. Our treatment of them in Cuba may be appalling to pacifists on the left (no doubt society is really to blame for beheadings and trade towers being brought down), but it doesn't nearly approach torture as the rest of the world -- including that renowned Arab Street -- understands it during a time of war.
There are humanitarian reasons -- yes, humanitarian -- for dealing with enemy combatants differently than prisoners of war. If you give people that don't take the stand of identifying themselves via uniform as an organized oppositionGeneva protections, than the general population that isn't distinguishable from a real army isn't safe and is fair game. You are encouraging the very activity that endangers civilians. (Read what qualifies for Geneva, folks). Our soldiers wear uniforms and take the risk of being shot at just by doing so. These insurgents are endangering their own people (when they're not blowing them up themselves) and don't deserve civilized protections as the rules of war affords because they're not playing by the rules.
Including all those noble Iraqi 'insurgents,' RL, that hail from Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemen, etc. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 677
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 6, 2005 - 11:12 am: |
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Dowd:
The Associated Press headline that came over the wire yesterday said it all: "Gonzales Will Follow Non-Torture Policies."
You know how bad the situation is when the president's choice for attorney general has to formally pledge not to support torture anymore.
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tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 1924
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 6, 2005 - 11:51 am: |
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Just now, Sen. Herb Kohl asked Gonzales about his views on whether or not torture works in getting information.
He responded, "Torture has never been a policy of the United States."
In "never," Robert, do you think he's referring to treatments of Mexicans during the Mexican-American War? Is he referring to treatment of Native Americans in the following of Manifest Destiny? What's going on here, Robert?
At least Sen. Lindsay Graham(R) is saying, regarding Geneva Conventions, that torture should not be practiced to "be cute" and use the opponents' techniques.
Gonzales believes, if I hear him correctly, that the non-traditional form of warfare and the "beheading" practices of Al Qaida justifies our use of torture.
Listen right now. You'll hear Graham vs. Gonzales on this right now. Interesting. Republican vs. Republican, on national TV.
Right now, Gonzales has asked for time to answer the question if torture weakens our position according to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Did I get this right?
Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, just asked him if the thought that the US military should use any lawful means necessary to acquire information from prisoners in this war.
Gonzales agreed, citing this as a "war of information."
Well, anyone with psychology 101 knows that using any means necessary, including pain or fear, is not a reliable means of "extracting" information from a person.
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 2972
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 6, 2005 - 12:13 pm: |
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You didn't hear Gonzalez correctly, tulip. Gonzalez isn't justifying or advocating the use of torture.
And when Gonzalez is answering 'never,' he's not talking about FDR, Polk or any other administration I'm quite certain. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 1926
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 6, 2005 - 12:19 pm: |
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So who's making a partisan comment, cjc? I am sure the detention centers used for the Japanese during WW II were not effective in any way, or adviseable. I am not absolving FDR or anyone. I am so glad you are certain, and I am glad I didn't hear this guy right, because I am sure he'll be confirmed. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 683
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 10:50 am: |
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Bob Herbert:
"Mr. Gonzales shouldn't be allowed anywhere near that office. His judgments regarding the detention and treatment of prisoners rounded up in Iraq and the so-called war on terror have been both unsound and shameful. Some of the practices that evolved from his judgments were appalling, gruesome, medieval."
"But this is the Bush administration, where incompetence and outright failure are rewarded with the nation's highest honors."
"The Bush administration hasn't changed. This is an administration that believes it can do and say whatever it wants, and that attitude is changing the very nature of the United States. It is eroding the checks and balances so crucial to American-style democracy. It led the U.S., against the advice of most of the world, to launch the dreadful war in Iraq. It led Mr. Gonzales to ignore the expressed concerns of the State Department and top military brass as he blithely opened the gates for the prisoner abuse vehicles to roll through."
"Americans have tended to view the U.S. as the guardian of the highest ideals of justice and fairness. But that is a belief that's getting more and more difficult to sustain. If the Justice Department can be the fiefdom of John Ashcroft or Alberto Gonzales, those in search of the highest standards of justice have no choice but to look elsewhere."
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tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2847
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 11:59 am: |
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I heard parts of the Gonzales testimony on NPR. Now, either NPR is biased or Gonzales really isn't somebody who can be trusted near the Constitution. To me, he has demonstrated really poor judgement at a number of levels and then passed the buck when questioned about the torture memo. His response that he was following orders and procedures and just doing his job was firmly rejected at Nuremberg 60 years ago and should be rejected today. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 2974
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 12:14 pm: |
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 5040
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 1:01 pm: |
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quote:Just now, Sen. Herb Kohl asked Gonzales about his views on whether or not torture works in getting information.
He responded, "Torture has never been a policy of the United States."
Whether or not that's a good thing to say, it is not an answer to the question that was posed to him. |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 1850
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 1:53 pm: |
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Tom, I think that's a crucial ability you have to demonstrate during confirmation hearings -- to keep a straight face and answer some other question than the one you were just asked. You do that well enough, and eventually they run out of time. Gonzales is a gimme.
I have an aunt in D.C. who is a pretty highly-placed lawyer for the government, and, interestingly, she has said that, prior to the torture stuff (and Kerik approval), Gonzales had been viewed by Dems in town as a fairly decent, competent guy. I'll have to ask her what the insiders think about him now. |
anon
Citizen
Username: Anon
Post Number: 1570
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 9:25 pm: |
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"The liberal mantra. Better that 9 guilty men go free than one innocent man be convicted."
That's not a "liberal mantra". It is the essence of a free society. How can anyone not believe in that?
You could be the innocent person |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 948
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 10:42 pm: |
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Interesting that no one seems to care that Gonzalez was also the guy who let then-Gov. Bush execute people without troubling his conscience.
quote:On execution day in Texas, it was the job of Gonzales to give Bush a summary of the case. The summary was the last information standing between an inmate and lethal injection. Gonzales provided 57 summaries to Bush. Gonzales intended for the memos to be confidential, but author Alan Berlow obtained them under Texas public information law.
Berlow found that Gonzales routinely provided scant summaries to Bush. The summaries, according to Berlow, ''repeatedly failed to apprise the governor of crucial issues in the cases at hand: ineffective counsel, conflict of interest, mitigating evidence, even actual evidence of innocence.''
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0702-04.htm
even actual evidence of innocence
Think about that for a minute. Gonzalez made sure W didn't have to worry his little head over signing death warrants for possibly innocent people.
Perhaps there's a special place in hell for people like Gonzalez. |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7166
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 8, 2005 - 5:38 am: |
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We haven't considered terrorists subject to the Geneva Convention since the Reagan years. It should, however, be noted that during Vietnam we considered the Viet Cong as POWs and subject to the convention for the simple reason to do otherwise would have given the North Vietnamese more reason to treat our prisoners even worse than they did. I think this is the point made by Senator Graham and several hundred retired generals.
Nobody here has picked up that we have Federal anti-torture laws on the books and have signed treaties on this subject as well separate from the Geneva conventions. Lawyer Gonazles' memos were meant to insulate Bush and Company from possible prosecution under these laws at some future date by defining torture in a very limited way.
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tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2852
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 8, 2005 - 10:17 am: |
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How can a man be considered for an important leadership position when he denies having an opinion on the torture policy memos crafted by the Justice Department at his request. Whether you be a trained lawyer, a cynical realist or just a person of common sense, you cannot have looked at those torture policies without the sense of somebody's thinking having gone horribly wrong.
Oh, I forgot, he was just doing his job. There's a lot of that going around lately. |
jerkyboy
Citizen
Username: Jerkyboy
Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 8, 2005 - 10:29 am: |
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I love the "southpaws" on this site they are so hopeless and lost.
They should have never endorsed so many losers for public office. |
Guy
Supporter
Username: Vandalay
Post Number: 463
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 8, 2005 - 11:19 am: |
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Jerky , the southpaws are gettinto into a lather because Gonzo agreed and passed on a Justice Dept memo that made the correct assumption that Taliban and Al Qaeda are not guaranteed Geneva Convention rights. It also tried to specify what non conventional questioning techniques would not violate our laws against torture. Remember all this was done a few months after 9-11.
This was GWB response in Feb 02:
"I accept the legal conclusion of the Department of Justice and determine that none of the provisions of Geneva apply to our conflict with Al Qaeda in Afghanistan or elsewhere throughout the world because, among other reasons, Al Qaeda is not a High Contracting Party to Geneva.
Of course, our values as a Nation...call for us to treat detainees humanely, including those who are not legally entitled to such treatment...As a matter of policy, the United States Armed Forces shall continue to treat detainees humanely and, to the extent appropriate and consistent with military necessity, in a manner consistent with the principles of Geneva."
No evidence that anybody in this admin authorized torture. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 1934
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 8, 2005 - 11:27 am: |
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Then why try to define it? Why would Gonzo ask for a memo from the Justice Department clarifying the definition, if they're not using it? |
Guy
Supporter
Username: Vandalay
Post Number: 464
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 8, 2005 - 11:31 am: |
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Gonzo realized that in the post 9-11 world non conventional interrogation techniques may be necessary to protect this country. He wanted to make sure these techniques did not constitute torture. |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 949
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 8, 2005 - 11:31 am: |
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That's exactly what they did - they decided to redefne torture. Read about the "water board" and decide for yourself whether or not it's torture. Hint - despite what the WSJ tries to tell you, it's not putting a wet towel on someone's face. |
Guy
Supporter
Username: Vandalay
Post Number: 465
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 8, 2005 - 11:44 am: |
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Then we must be torturing our own troops , because the waterboard is part of military training. Regardless the WH response was that detainees should be treated humanely. |
sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 12938
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 8, 2005 - 11:49 am: |
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I hope they are using it. |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 950
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 8, 2005 - 11:54 am: |
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I'm just kidding with you guys. torture is a-ok by me.
In fact, I volunteer for a nice, relaxing water board any chance I get. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 5046
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 8:24 am: |
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Please read this:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/011005A.shtml |
Guy
Supporter
Username: Vandalay
Post Number: 467
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 9:38 am: |
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This is an article which shows what interrogators had to deal with in Afghanistan 2001. Pretty informative.
http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_1_terrorists.html |
Earlster
Supporter
Username: Earlster
Post Number: 852
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 1:49 pm: |
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Check out the book by the same author.
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/cops/ |
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