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Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 577
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 12:22 pm: | 
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So if you were referred to as an angry liberal instead of "you types" would it make you feel any better?
Eh, probably not. It'd still only be half-right.
I'm not angry with the president, I'm angry with "you types" who spend all day criticizing, doing nothing constructive.
Setting aside that you have no idea how I spend my time (for all you know, I work for the Red Cross, and am posting from Thailand) what would you suggest doing that's constructive? Smiling blandly and keeping quiet about things I find morally repugnant?
All you do is look to point the finger at every little "percieved" wrong. How is the president neglecting his duties? Is it because he isn't doing what "you" think he should be doing? Well who the hell are you?
I'm an American citizen, buddy. I'm the boss of this sorry excuse for a President.
And it's not my "perception" that riding your bike and clearing brush while tens of thousands are dying is un-Presidential. Whatever you think of Bush, how on earth can you defend how long it took him to get off his •••?
I think he mostly embodies what makes this country great.
He mostly embodies self-interest, which is not what makes this country great, but it is what's made us famous lately.
Has he made mistakes? Yes. I wish he would own up to some of them, just say one time that he made a mistake but we all know that's not going to happen so I don't dwell on it.
Well, you've got a much higher tolerance for arrogance than I do. Congratulations.
How many dead Americans (not soldiers) are you willing to sacrifice?
Not one. Which is why I wish we were rounding up al-Qaeda, so that we might have a chance of preventing future sacrifices.
Who were the innocent victims of torture?
Are you kidding me? How about 80% of the people in Abu Ghraib? And I'm sorry, but once upon a time, it wasn't even acceptable to torture the guilty, never mind the innocent...how far we've come, and how proud you must be.
What lies are you referring to now?
Take your pick...can you find something this administration HASN'T lied about? |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 2976
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 12:27 pm: |
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80% of the people at Abu Graib were tortured now? Uh.....no. Was that a willful misrepresentation (see: lie) or are you just passing along some talking point you heard on Democrat Underground? |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 686
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 1:18 pm: |
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sportsnut:
Tommy not doing it for you? How about Teddy?
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
- President Theodore Roosevelt |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 687
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 1:21 pm: |
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In fact, sportsnut, seems like you could use a little history lesson about who exactly makes this country great.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or exercise their revolutionary right to overthrow it."
- President Abraham Lincoln
"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President."
- President Theodore Roosevelt
"I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually."
- James Baldwin, Notes of a Native Son
"Disobedience, in the eyes of any one who has read history, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion."
- Oscar Wilde
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
- Dr. Martin Luther King
"Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted; the indifference of those who should have known better; the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most; that has made it possible for evil to triumph."
- Haile Selassie
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Guy
Supporter
Username: Vandalay
Post Number: 455
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 1:35 pm: |
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Never objected to an American's right to Bush Bash. Most of it is silly anyway.
However when a public figure like Ted Kennedy says that Iraq is a Vietnam quagmire and a guy like Al Sadr uses that to rally his troops, then there is a problem. |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 942
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 1:45 pm: |
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do you really believe al Sadr quotes Ted Kennedy to his followers? |
Guy
Supporter
Username: Vandalay
Post Number: 456
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 2:00 pm: |
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Al Sadr used the Vietnam Quagmire quotes while addressing his followers last April.
Wednesday, April 7, 2004 10:12 p.m. EDT
Shiite Terror Leader Quotes Ted Kennedy
Shiite terrorist leader Muqtada al-Sadr was so impressed with Sen. Ted Kennedy's portrayal of the war in Iraq as "George Bush's Vietnam," he's picked up the theme himself.
"Iraq will be another Vietnam for America and the occupiers," al-Sadr said Wednesday in a statement issued from his office in Najaf. Forces loyal to the maniacal imam have killed 20 U.S. soldiers since Sunday.
Al-Sadr's remark mirrored Kennedy's own anti-war blast on Tuesday, when he told the Brookings Institution, "Iraq is George Bush's Vietnam."
"I call upon the American people to stand beside their brethren, the Iraqi people, who are suffering an injustice by your rulers and the occupying army, to help them in the transfer of power to honest Iraqis," the al-Sadr statement continued, according to the Associated Press.
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Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 689
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 2:30 pm: |
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sportsnut: "How long before "you types" start blaming the situation on Bush claiming that he somehow caused the Earthquake as a way to divert attention from Iraq?"
You're onto to something here, but I see it more as something President Bush might use to his advantage. Perhaps by blaming Iran for the tsunami, Bush will launch a pre-emptive strike of that country. The logic is roughly the same as the reasons given for our invasion of Iraq. It would rank about the same on the truth-meter as well.
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Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 578
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 2:31 pm: |
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80% of the people at Abu Graib were tortured now? Uh.....no. Was that a willful misrepresentation (see: lie) or are you just passing along some talking point you heard on Democrat Underground?
Neither. It was you demonstrating poor reading comprehension. The question was "Who were the innocent victims of torture?" 80% of the people in Abu Ghraib were/are innocent, so it stands to reason that 80% of those tortured there were innocent victims of torture. We don't know how many people there were tortured, and we probably never will (as long as Republicans control the governemnt) but the fact that they were imprisoned at all despite having done nothing wrong, while perhaps not "torture" in the traditional sense, is sickening. At least to those of us with souls.
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Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 579
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 2:33 pm: |
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Al Sadr used the Vietnam Quagmire quotes while addressing his followers last April.
Nice try, Guy. Nothing in that excerpt (source, please?) proves that Al Sadr got his rhetoric from Kennedy, and he certainly didn't use "quotes."
And besides which, is it your assertion that without Ted Kennedy, Al Sadr wouldn't have had anything to say to his followers? |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 943
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 2:37 pm: |
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yeah,
Ted Kennedy is the only person on the planet to draw a Vietnam-Iraq parallel.
sheesh, could we find a worse example of stupid journalism?
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Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 580
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 2:37 pm: |
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Never mind, Guy. I found your source.
Do you believe everything you read on "News"Max?
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/4/7/221743.shtml |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7164
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 2:47 pm: |
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Anybody else catch the NY Times article today where Lt. Gen. Metz declared that four provinces, with over 40% of the population, are too dangerous for elections.
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Guy
Supporter
Username: Vandalay
Post Number: 458
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 2:50 pm: |
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Madden, both men made similar statements about Iraq and Vietnam a day apart. You can draw your own conclusion as to whether Al Sadr was inspired by Teddy.
My point is that the founding father quotes about criticizing the President and the country didn't take into consideration mass media and what effect broadcast public dissention would have on a war effort.
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Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7165
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 2:53 pm: |
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Guy, your arguements are a rehash of the ones that went on about Vietnam. If the country hadn't become anti-war we probably would have lost another 50,000 troops there before withdrawing with our tail between our legs.
Somehow, in a middle of a battle I doubt if al Sadr was reading the New York Times and the Washington Post. |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 581
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 2:55 pm: |
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Madden, both men made similar statements about Iraq and Vietnam a day apart. You can draw your own conclusion as to whether Al Sadr was inspired by Teddy.
I do draw my own conclusions, based on logic, not partisanship. Kennedy was not the first, nor the last to make that comparison. The idea that al Sadr heard it and said "Hey, I've gotta use that bit!" is preposterous.
My point is that the founding father quotes about criticizing the President and the country didn't take into consideration mass media and what effect broadcast public dissention would have on a war effort.
Well, there's that silly ol' 1st Amendment for you. I don't think the 2nd Amendment took AK-47's into consideration...do we strike that one, too? |
Guy
Supporter
Username: Vandalay
Post Number: 459
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 2:57 pm: |
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Bobkat,The same way Bin Laden didn't read Democratic talking points before his pre election video.
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Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 690
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 3:00 pm: |
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Yeah, Guy, the founding fathers knew especially little about war propaganda.
I think one of the problems the republicans have right now, especially the ones that post here, is distinguishing the difference between patriotism and nationalism. I contend Teddy Kennedy is patriot for daring to raise issue with this president's war. Dissent is patriotism. However, what Bush -- and people here, especially that Strawberry guy -- do ammounts to little more than waving the flag. That's nationalism. Pointing out dangerous flaws in government policy is patriotism. Blindly unquestioning the president and his policies is nationalism...and we have all read a thing or two about what happens to countries when the government encourages the population to engage in undo nationalism.
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Guy
Supporter
Username: Vandalay
Post Number: 460
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 3:05 pm: |
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Not once did I say that dissention is wrong. It should be encouraged. However in a time of war , more responsiblity should be exercised. Dissention can embolden an enemy because he perceives America as being unresolute. If this is the result , detractors should be held accountable for their public statements. |
Ily
Citizen
Username: Ily
Post Number: 143
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 3:07 pm: |
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Speaking of...interesting t-shirt:
http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/details_pop.aspx?iid=51896117&cdi =0 |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 691
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 3:13 pm: |
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Guy, unless the detractors say something libelous, illegal, treasonous, or something that threatens national security, in this country, in case you've forgotten, we are allowed to speak our mind. Even in a time of war. Especially in a time of war. |
Guy
Supporter
Username: Vandalay
Post Number: 461
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 3:17 pm: |
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Robert , of course they can say whatever they want. With freedom of speech comes responsibility. If you have the freedom to dissent , I have the freedom to take issue with your statements and hold you accountable. If the voters agree with me you will no longer be in office. Ask Mr Daschle. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 1928
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 7, 2005 - 4:48 pm: |
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Guy, what do you think of the accountability of an administration that pays "pundits" to promote social programs (No Child Left Behind) in the media, using tax payers' money ($240,000) no less.
Makes one think, maybe the stories about giving ministers "walking around money" to promote Christie Whitman in that election, actually did happen. |
Mustt_mustt
Citizen
Username: Mustt_mustt
Post Number: 191
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 8, 2005 - 10:10 am: |
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Donohue called tsunami "poor Asian people['s] ... gift to the world"
William A. Donohue, president of the conservative Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, said of the tsunami disaster in South Asia: "In one strange sense, then, what's happening to these poor Asian people is their gift to the world." Donohue's comments came after MSNBC host and former U.S. Representative Joe Scarborough (R-FL) asked him about "the Catholic church's take" on the disaster.
From the January 6 edition of Scarborough Country:
DONOHUE: The fact of the matter is that what -- we can't figure out exactly, as mortal human beings, what is exactly at work. Job certainly didn`t understand it in the New Testament. Talk about Murphy's Law. Everything that could have gone wrong for that guy went wrong.
But what did it do to his faith? He kept his faith in God. There are strange things that happen. But we do know one thing: that Catholicism in particular is a theology of suffering, as Cardinal [John] O'Connor once said. Cardinal O'Connor once stunned the Jewish community by saying that the great gift of Judaism was the Holocaust. He didn't mean that to insult Jews.
What he was saying was this: There is no greater suffering than what Christ did. He died on the cross, but that's a source of optimism. That`s a source of redemption. So, I think we have to look at this in a positive sense. In one strange sense, then, what's happening to these poor Asian people is their gift to the world. It makes us think about our mortality and about salvation and about redemption. That's what we should be thinking about.
O'Connor did once characterize the Holocaust as Judaism's "gift" to the world, as the Associated Press reported on May 4, 2000, following O'Connor's death. But the AP also noted O'Connor's admission, during a January 1, 1997, New York Times interview, that he said "some dumb things" to the press on occasion: "The press could have asked me about satellites to Mars and I would have given them an answer." The AP also noted that on Yom Kippur, 1999, O'Connor "sent a letter to Jewish leaders expressing 'my own abject sorrow for any member of the Catholic Church, high or low, who may have harmed you or your forebears.' Nobel Peace Prize winner Elie Wiesel published the letter in a Sunday Times advertisement, saying: 'For the prince of the church to say the things he does, it's very strong.'"
Donohue also incorrectly referenced the Bible: The Book of Job is in the Old Testament, not the New.
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sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 12935
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 8, 2005 - 10:31 am: |
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Tulip,
What do you think of female carpetbagging US Senators who falsify financial records? |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 1932
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 8, 2005 - 10:36 am: |
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Sbenois:
I admire the timing of that revelation, immediately following
1) Gonzales' messy presentation
2) the revelation about the paid pundit
Obviously, Rove's latest attempt to fight fire with fire, and set up a distraction. He was probably holding the Hillary affair for the right moment, to counteract the stupidity of the
paid pundit affair.
What a giant load of mularkey.
Read the Star Ledger main editorial about Gonzales, by the way. It's much more of a scandal when we're about to appoint a "yes-man" to torture as attorney general, in my humble opinion.
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sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 12937
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 8, 2005 - 11:48 am: |
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1) Gonzales has my seal of approval.
2) I admire the timing as well. Hopefully the charges will point back to Hillary's wretched hands and taint her forever. It's just a hope of course.
But it is nice to see that you've got a conspiracy theory ready to go at any time.
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