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Face
Citizen
Username: Face
Post Number: 488
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 9:25 am: | 
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Teddy spoke out yesterday. His comments focused in on Iraq.
Is Iraq is Bush's Vietnam? We lost in Vietnam. We ran. Is that the message Kennedy is sending here? Is that the solution he's calling for again?
Back in Vietnam days the media took a U.S. victory, the Tet offensive, and turned it into a rout of, not by the Americans. This is happening again today. The Mainstream, (left wing) media continually attempts to undermine the war effort.
This actually seems to be what Kennedy wants ... what a lot of Democrats want. I truly believe that they actually want to see the United States leave Iraq with its tail between its legs. The Iraqi people? Who cares? The future of peace in the Middle East? Again, who cares? What is important to Democrats here .. what is more important than establishing a beachhead of peace in the most dangerous region of the world .. what is more important to the left is disgracing George Bush and disgracing the Republican Party so that they can return to their rightful position of dominance in Washington.
Ted Kennedy and his sickening sycophants are actually willing, if not eager, to endanger every man woman and child in the United States -- to actually increase the threat level of another and probably more horrible terrorist attack on our soil -- if it means they can take back what they believe their birthright -- the right to rule the roost in Washington.
Does Ted Kennedy accurately represent the Democratic Party in America?
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Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 4266
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 9:26 am: |
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"Does Ted Kennedy accurately represent the Democratic Party in America?"
yes
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Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 959
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 9:30 am: |
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This country would be safer and better off if everyone would just shut up and let Bush do his job. He knows best. What the hell do his critics know. Just shut up everyone. It's the only way to be a good American.
thank you and God Bless America. |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 4251
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 9:39 am: |
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Face's first post in this thread left off the last lines of the piece he lifted from today's Neil Boortz ranting:
quote:Ted Kennedy is a true symbol of the weakness of a system that allows far too many people to vote. This "one man, one vote" nonsense is a death sentence for freedom and for America.
Is that what Neil and his fans want? Democracy for Iraq, but not for America? |
Mark Fuhrman
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 1124
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 9:43 am: |
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Nohero--when the knock comes at your door in the middle of the night, don't be surprised. Get with the program, like the Good Doctor WOB did. |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7219
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 9:56 am: |
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Dave and Jamie:
May I make a proposal on suspensions?
How about a suspension for those who don't attribute material and post it as if it was there own thought and work process?
I find the practice dispicable, and I am sure other posters do as well.
This is a soapbox and everyone is free to climb up on the box and speak their piece, but let's try to know who is actually saying the words. |
Mark Fuhrman
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 1125
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 9:58 am: |
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Boortz and Hannity notwithstanding, Kennedy hardly sounds like a radical leftist. In fact, he sounds like the voice of reasoned opposition, which is what democracy is all about. Following are some other outtakes from the news reports.
By the way, Colin Powell is the one today calling for a staged withdrawal from Iraq starting by year end.
Senator Edward M. Kennedy warned Democrats on Wednesday not to become "Republican clones" in response to the party's setbacks in November, declaring that President Bush's victory was narrow and did not provide him with the mandate the White House has claimed.
In a defiant speech ushering in what is shaping up as a contentious legislative year, Mr. Kennedy accused the White House of using scare tactics to try to push through changes in Social Security, and pledged to fight them.
"In the face of their tactics, we cannot move our party or our nation forward under pale colors and timid voices," Mr. Kennedy said. "We cannot become Republican clones. If we do, we will lose again, and deserve to lose. As I have said on other occasions, the last thing this country needs is two Republican parties."
But the speech was more striking for the extent to which it sought to push back Mr. Bush's claim for a mandate and its warning to Democrats not to respond disproportionately to Republican victories.
Mr. Kennedy said he was particularly concerned with "the contentious and difficult issue of abortion," an apparent reference to Democrats who have said that their party needs to reduce its emphasis on the issue in future elections.
"In this land that cherishes individual rights and liberties," he said, "a woman has the constitutional right to make her own reproductive decisions, and I support that right wholeheartedly."
He added: "But there is a way America can find common ground on this issue. Surely, we can all agree that abortion should be rare, and that we should do all we can to help women avoid the need to face that decision."
Mr. Kennedy recalled delivering a postelection speech after the 1994 elections, when Republicans captured control of both houses of Congress for the first time in nearly 50 years. He said this latest presidential election "was nothing like that."
He called it a reprise of 2000, saying: "This time, a switch of less than 60,000 votes in Ohio would have brought victory. Unlike 2000, it would have been a victory against an incumbent president, and in a time of war."}
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themp
Citizen
Username: Themp
Post Number: 1373
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 10:16 am: |
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"Back in Vietnam days the media took a U.S. victory, the Tet offensive, and turned it into a rout of, not by the Americans. This is happening again today. The Mainstream, (left wing) media continually attempts to undermine the war effort."
Ah, what could have been...if it weren't for that damned media.
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Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 960
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 10:51 am: |
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hey nohero,
stop criticizing. don't you know that democracy is hard? |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 1861
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 11:38 am: |
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Face, posting trolls without even providing attribution is the action of a LOSER. Don't you have anything better to do, like try to come up with an original thought?
Oh, and Boortz just called. He wants his troll back. |
Chris Prenovost
Citizen
Username: Chris_prenovost
Post Number: 249
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 11:43 am: |
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Enough with the Vietnam comparisons, already.
The left loves to bring up Vietnam as a direct example of what will happen to us in Iraq. The situations are radically different for the following reasons:
1- The South Vietnamese government and ARVN (south vietnamese army) were completely and utterly corrupt. Thus, they had very little public support. The interim Iraqi government seems to be a lot more honest, and will get the public support it needs once it deals with the thugs setting off bombs in public places.
2- South Vietnam was a rather brutal military dictatorship with a thin veneer of U.S. imposed democracy. In Iraq, a genuine Arab democracy is in the making, given time.
3- At the time of the Vietnam war, the U.S. thought it was invincible, that there was nothing we could not do, that we could, 'bear any bruden, support any ally, oppose any foe', to quote (?) President Kennedy. Now, I think we have a more realistic view of our power and it's limitations.
4- The cold war. We could not withdraw from Vietnam, we were told, due to the exigencies of the cold war, that the Russians or Chinese would move in, ect. We have no such restraints now.
All in all, a completely different situation. |
mjh
Citizen
Username: Mjh
Post Number: 26
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 11:54 am: |
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I didn't read anything about a beachead (huh?) of peace in Iraq......When did that happen?
Face,we democrats don't need to disgrace GWB, he does it all by himself.
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Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 529
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 11:14 am: |
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"Face, we democrats don't need to disgrace GWB, he does it all by himself."
Much like Sen. Ted Kennedy and the rest of his Clan! |
anon
Citizen
Username: Anon
Post Number: 1588
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 12:21 am: |
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The US lost in Vietnam? That's defeatist treasonous nonsense. We won! Southeast Asia did not go Communist. None of the "Dominoes" fell!
The Soviet Union, North Vietnam's main supporter did fall, as did all the Communist regimes in Europe which opposed us in Vietnam. Now we trade with Vietnam. They're our good buddies.
You call that a loss?
Now World War Two we lost.
Why do you think we are all driving either Japanese or German cars? |
Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 214
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 4:37 am: |
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Face,
Is it fair to assume that you would include with Senator Kennedy the following individuals who (in your words) are "willing, if not eager, to endanger every man woman and child in the United States"?
BRENT SCOWCROFT
(National Security Adviser under Pres. Bush-1)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A54680-2005Jan6?language=printer
"The Iraqi elections, rather than turning out to be a promising turning point, have the great potential for deepening the conflict," Scowcroft said. He said he expects increased divisions between Shiite and Sunni Muslims after the Jan. 30 elections, when experts believe the government will be dominated by the majority Shiites.
Scowcroft predicted "an incipient civil war" would grip Iraq and said the best hope for pulling the country from chaos would be to turn the U.S. operation over to NATO or the United Nations -- which, he said, would not be so hostilely viewed by Iraqis.
Speaking at a luncheon hosted by the New America Foundation, a nonprofit public policy group, Scowcroft also said the continued U.S. presence in Iraq is inflaming the Middle East, hurting the U.S. war on terrorism.
ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI
(National Security Adviser under Pres. Carter)
http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/
"A great deal of what is happening thus far in American foreign policy has been influenced by the ongoing conflict in Iraq. Now I would like to say very briefly that in my view, that war which was a war of choice is already a serious moral set back to the United States. A moral set back both in how we start, how it was justified, and because of some of the egregious incidents that have accompanied this proceeding. The moral costs to the United States are high. It's a political setback.
"The United States has never been involved in an intervention in its entire history like it is today. It is also a military set back.
"'Mission Accomplished' are words that many in this administration want to forget."
LT. GEN. WILLIAM ODOM
(National Security Agency Director under Pres. Reagan)
http://www.cfr.org/publication.php?id=7006
"First, I would go to the United Nations Security Council, eat a little humble pie, and point out to the Europeans that what happens in Iraq is as important to them as it is to us, maybe more so, and that we made a mess of it and we would like to have the United Nations endorse some sort of United Nations force there, a stability force. And while we will contribute to it for a time, we're beginning to bring our forces down, and clearly our 134,000 troops are not enough. So we hope the United Nations and the Security Council will be able to generate forces to back up ours and actually supplement them now."
MEL GIBSON (Filmmaker):
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/11/nyregion/11bold.html?ex=1106736815&ei=1&en=c8d 8f0c7be03aeac
"However, what the hell are we doing in Iraq? No one can explain to me in a reasonable manner that I can accept why we're there, why we went there, and why we're still there."
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sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 12978
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 6:57 am: |
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Paul,
Where are you getting these quotes from? Are you compiling them yourself? |
Debby
Citizen
Username: Debby
Post Number: 1541
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 9:27 am: |
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Have you ever noticed democrats never talk about Ted Kennedy? He's always brought up by Republicans - a GOP buzzword. |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 594
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 10:42 am: |
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That's because they want us to be ashamed of our values. Not me...I'm happy to talk about Ted Kennedy. I believe that personal shortcomings are not relevant when it comes to holding office. I wouldn't ask him for a ride home, but Ted Kennedy has spent his career fighting for basics like fairness and equality, and his list of accomplishments speaks for itself.
As they say about another famous politico with copious personal shortcomings, "You may not agree with him, but you always know where he stands." |
Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 215
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 4:05 pm: |
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Sbenois,
Yes, these are quotes that I've compiled. In some cases they've been referenced in news articles and I've had to search to obtain the original. In other cases, I've uncovered them on political websites or through Google searches.
I used the Scowcroft, Brzezinski, Odom and Gibson quotes to make up a small flyer that SMPA gave out this morning in conjunction with our petitioning and "Be About Peace" lawn sign distribution in Maplewood.
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Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 530
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 1:02 pm: |
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"You may not agree with him but you know where stands"
Right, and in July 1969 we know pretty much where he stood too! In typical Kennedy fashion he has championed many worthy causes in pursuit of a legacy that can erase his personal shame. His pursuit is fruitless- that young New Jersey woman's blood will stain his hands and his legacy forever. |
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 4285
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 2:51 pm: |
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how to piss off a lib. Work hard and be happy. |
jerkyboy
Citizen
Username: Jerkyboy
Post Number: 31
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 3:51 pm: |
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How to make a liberal happy.....
You are supposed to shut up, do as you are told, go on unemployment, andwait for your entitlements saying,"I have P.E.S.T. and am too psychologically hurt by the election to work |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 597
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 11:59 pm: |
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Right, and in July 1969 we know pretty much where he stood too!
No, actually, that was just a youthful indiscretion. Those don't matter, remember?
Seriously, I'll put Ted's arrest record and substance abuse up against Dubya's any day of the week. How is it that you excuse shameful behavior on your side, but condemn it across the aisle? I guess your side is just better at expunging records.
More importantly, I'll put Ted's record of acheivement and the work he's done to protect and support the people of this country up against Dubya's...to me, that's what really matters.
how to piss off a lib. Work hard and be happy.
Credit where credit's due...Dubya's got half of that equation down pat. |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7244
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 6:43 am: |
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The thing that is often forgotten about Teddy is that he is one of the few Senators who can actually get anything accomplished. He can reach across the aisle and work out compromises with the Republicans. Like it or not his support of NCLB is one of the main reasons it is law.
The strangest part about Kennedy is that he and Orin Hatch, one of the most conservative Senators, are good personal friends. |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 531
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 9:39 am: |
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Maddden 11- "My Side" is Democratic, but I'm not so blind a follower that I excuse homicide. And that "youthful indiscretion" ( he was over 30, BTW) that you so easily dismiss is the life of a young woman whose family still grieves for her loss. I've met a few of them. There are some wrongs that a man does not walk away from. Ted Kennedy cannot build the resume of good works that will wash away that despicable, cowardly act. |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 602
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 2:46 pm: |
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Maddden 11- "My Side" is Democratic, but I'm not so blind a follower that I excuse homicide.
Brett, kindly point out where I excuse Chappaquiddick. And not to split hairs, but I don't believe it qualifies as a homicide. Manslaughter, perhaps, a horrible and shameful event, to be sure, but you're not alleging premeditation, are you?
And that "youthful indiscretion" ( he was over 30, BTW) that you so easily dismiss is the life of a young woman whose family still grieves for her loss.
Again, I'm not dismissing anything. I was merely making a comparison to our President, who admits only to having continued "youthful indiscretions" until he hit forty and quit drinking.
I guess it's also possible that I've become densensitized to the senseless disrespect of human life since we went into Iraq.
There are some wrongs that a man does not walk away from. Ted Kennedy cannot build the resume of good works that will wash away that despicable, cowardly act.
Now here's where we actually do disagree. I believe all human beings make mistakes. Some small, some large, some unthinkably tragic...but all human. As a human myself, I'm inclined to forgive, especially if the person making the mistake demonstrates true value as a human being.
Maybe you know exactly what you'd do in a situation like that. Maybe you're a real man, a true hero...maybe you've never even made a mistake. The bottom line for me is, it's not in my nature to pass righteous judgment on others...isn't there something in the Bible about that? |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 534
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 4:12 pm: |
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Madden- What exactly did you mean by "youthful indiscretion" if not to soft-peddle a man swimming safely from his own sinking car, knowing another person was in it and deciding to steal away from her rather than attempt to help? Your "let's just move on" attitude is completely dismissive of that woman's death- frame it any way you like.
Homicide refers to any death that requires investigation- a suicide is a homicide- and it requires no premeditation to stand idly by and do nothing, including call others to help if you cannot bring yourself to do so. Turning your back on a dying person who you MAY be able to help would be a pretty good example of "depraved indifference".
Do I know exactly what I'd do? I have a pretty good idea because I have saved other lives and interceded to protect others. I know what I would do as do most men and women- "Real" or not. It's not about being a "True Hero"- it's exactly about being human.
"As a human myself, I'm inclined to forgive, especially if the person making the mistake demonstrates true value as a human being"
You left out one little matter- atoning for the wrongs you've done. Ted Kennedy never did, and likely never will in this lifetime. Society can forgive once justice is satisfied. But there are some wrongs that must be answered for before one can claim a life of service and good deeds.
One other note- it's amazing how your personal "desensitivity" became Bush's fault. Didn't Viet Nam, the Khymer Rouge, Idi Amin, Coucescu, Apartheid, Bosnia or 9/11 have even a little effect on you? The world didn't suddenly turn violent and ugly in the last three years.
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Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 604
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 6:31 pm: |
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Madden- What exactly did you mean by "youthful indiscretion"
As I explained, I'm merely using our President's rhetoric. Nowadays, any questionable activity by a public figure prior to the age of 40 is a "youthful indiscretion." Instead of public scandal, well-connected families simply have records expunged. I believe that people are responsible for their actions...it just doesn't seem to be the prevailing wisdom of the Bush era.
Your "let's just move on" attitude is completely dismissive of that woman's death- frame it any way you like.
It has nothing to do with framing. Loss of life is a tragedy, period. I never said anything else. All I'm doing is objecting to the discounting of everything a person says for the rest of his life because of a single tragic mistake. This thread started with Kennedy's statement about Iraq. What that has to do with Chappaquiddick is beyond me, but I'm not the one who brought it up. I'd say exploiting a woman's tragic and accidental death to smear a political opponent could be called dismissive...I guess it depends on your perspective.
Homicide refers to any death that requires investigation
My mistake.
Turning your back on a dying person who you MAY be able to help would be a pretty good example of "depraved indifference".
Would it? I'm not a lawyer, but I'd think that's a judgment call at best. According to Kennedy:
"I made immediate and repeated efforts to save Mary Jo by diving into strong and murky current, but succeeded only in increasing my state of utter exhaustion and alarm...Although my doctors informed me that I suffered a cerebral concussion, as well as shock, I do not seek to escape responsibility for my actions by placing the blame either in the physical, emotional trauma brought on by the accident, or on anyone else."
So tell us what really happened, Brett. Sounds like you've got some inside information.
Do I know exactly what I'd do? I have a pretty good idea because I have saved other lives and interceded to protect others.
I see. And anyone less successful or less unflappably courageous than you is deserving of scorn? Did your lifesaving occur while your own life was in danger? Were you trained to intervene in the way you did?
You left out one little matter- atoning for the wrongs you've done. Ted Kennedy never did, and likely never will in this lifetime.
How on earth do you know? What kind of atonement do you feel is warranted? And why do you get to decide? Read the rest of Kennedy's statement:
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/tedkennedychappaquiddick.htm
Or wait, let me guess. You can't trust anything he says because he's a murderer.
One other note- it's amazing how your personal "desensitivity" became Bush's fault. Didn't Viet Nam, the Khymer Rouge, Idi Amin, Coucescu, Apartheid, Bosnia or 9/11 have even a little effect on you?
Being an adult for only the last two, I can say that they have. I was in the World Trade Center when the first plane hit, so, yeah, you might say it had an effect on me. Maybe not the same effect that it had on you, but I would submit that my experience is no less valid...you'll forgive me if I don't stick around for the rest of the lecture.
I guess my answer is that as a rational human being, I accept the inevitability of senseless loss of life at the hands of madmen or "evildoers," if you prefer. But not at the hands of my own government. We're supposed to be the good guys.
If you don't understand the difference, I guess I'd find that "amazing." |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 535
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 10:20 pm: |
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Madden- Wow, so apparently human tragedy only becomes your problem if it occurs in your lifetime, or in your immediate life. No wonder you can be so forgiving. I hope for your sake that the people you care about don't find themselves facing death and look up to find that their only hope is Ted Kennedy- or you. |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 606
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 10:43 pm: |
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Madden- Wow, so apparently human tragedy only becomes your problem if it occurs in your lifetime, or in your immediate life.
What a ridiculous statement from a truly ridiculous person. Still weeping about those killed in the Revolutionary War, are you? Take a deeply self-righteous breath and enlighten me as to how the murders of the Spanish Inquisition have impacted your life, please. Be detailed...do you think about them every day, or just every few days?
I hope for your sake that the people you care about don't find themselves facing death and look up to find that their only hope is Ted Kennedy- or you.
Brett, what on earth are you talking about? Do you even have any idea what your own point is, or are you so addled by the sight of George Bush in his flight suit that you can't even hold a coherent thought? You have no idea who I am, yet you prattle on about whether I'd try and save the life of someone I care about. Nor do you know a goddamn thing about Ted Kennedy, or what happened that night. Nor does anyone, other than Ted himself. But you don't let that stop you from passing judgment...what an admirable quality.
I stand by my original point, which you have yet to refute in any meaningful way. |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 537
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 10:01 am: |
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Madden- I'm a lifelong Democrat, but I'm not a blathering idealogue who excuses such wrongdoing for the sake of party politics. Only Ted knows? Well, apparently he has some doubts too. If you were alive in 1969 you would know that he initially denied knowing the girl or being at the scene- the statements that you cited came out several days (and many lawyers) after the fact.
Frankly, I've yet to see that you had any point. My only point is that the Senior Senator from Mass. is NOT the face of the Democratic Party and never has been. To prove that point you need only look to the JUNIOR Senator from Mass. who received only faint praise and public recognition from his fellow Bay-Stater as he ran for President. Or look to the NEW face of the Party, Senator Barak Obama, whose name Ole' Ted can't pronounce after multiple attempts (his latest misstep came out as "Osama bin Laden").
This party has many faces to display proudly- Ted Kennedy is not one of them. |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 608
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 10:51 am: |
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OK, Brett. There's obviously been some confusion here.
1) I have never, not once, suggested excusing Kennedy's wrongdoing. I have suggested that it is possible for human beings (flawed as we all are) to ask for and receive forgiveness. I have also suggested that making a mistake, no matter how tragic, is not cause to discount a person for the rest of their lives, especially not one who has done so much good for so many people. Somehow you read that as an endorsement of vehicular manslaughter.
2) I've never claimed that Ted Kennedy should be the face of the Democratic party. I don't know where you got that. My point, since my first post on this thread has been "I believe that personal shortcomings are not relevant when it comes to holding office." You took that as my endorsement of Kennedy for President. I'm not promoting Kennedy for "Face of the Party," I'm just sick of seeing this man smeared and demonized, his service and values mocked and dismissed, for a mistake he made a long time ago. Republicans protect each other, no matter how despicable. Democrats are only too happy to throw each other under the bus, because they don't understand the bigger picture.
3) I'm not sure what campaign you were watching, but Kerry had no stronger supporter throughout the primaries than Ted Kennedy. When his campaign was in the basement, low single digit polling, Kennedy was there. In the national election, when it was judged that his presence was likely to be more of a hindrance than a help, he scaled back public appearances. Again, if you have secret information as to his true intentions, please do share it. Otherwise, you might consider that the judgment you passed on this man more than 30 years ago is blinding you to reality.
4) It's Barack Obama, not Barak. I guess Ted's not the only one who has difficulty with unusual names.
I'm not really interested in discussing this further, especially since we probably agree more than disagree in the larger scheme of things. I maintain that Ted Kennedy's life has been a net positive for Americans...you don't think so. Fair enough. |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 538
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 11:27 am: |
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Madden- Points well-stated and well-taken; agreed! |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 1887
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 2:51 pm: |
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Well done, gents.
Meanwhile, Face, who posted this troll of a thread, hasn't even bothered to respond to anyone's posts.
Ted Kennedy only represents a sector of Democrats. Democrats are more wholly represented far more by their collective actions, than by the words or deeds of a few individuals. The following just arrived from TrueMajority.com, and it discusses a few recent accomplishments of Democrats:
Yes, It's True. Your Efforts Paid Off in '04
Congress is about to get in full gear again, so it's a good time to take a look back at last year's successes for some inspiration. Yes, we know, a lot of us are trying to forget last year, too. But your faxes, e-mails, contributions, and phone calls generated results we can be proud of.
No New Nuclear Bombs
Who would have thought that Congress would ever cut all funding for a weapon called the "Robust Nuclear Earth Penetrator"? Sounds like just the kind of bomb Tom DeLay would love. But we're glad to report that after intense grassroots pressure, Congress cut this new bomb—which is designed to burrow underground and destroy bunkers. We should be dismantling the nukes we have, not building dangerous new ones. So this was a good victory.
Sudan
At first, the Bush administration wanted to essentially ignore the genocide in Sudan. Then Bush said he wanted to take action, but not call the atrocities "genocide." In the end, the administration not only joined Congress in calling the situation "genocide," which adds a new level of responsibility to the UN's reaction to the crisis, but Bush eagerly signed the Comprehensive Peace in Sudan bill. This bill puts the teeth of sanctions behind our demands that the Sudan government stop the genocide. This turnaround is directly attributable to grassroots pressure like ours. We are also glad for the media attention that you've generated—like the project funded by TrueMajority members that sent a camera crew directly to a refugee camp.
Renewable Energy
One of the Bush administration's top priorities for last year was enacting an energy policy that would further our nation's dependence on fossil fuels, locking our country into a future of more pollution, economic decline, and, almost certainly, more wars over oil. It was a great victory for us—and the planet—when, after a popular uprising, Congress stopped Bush's energy bill. We've got our work cut out for us this year, but this was a sweet win.
Star Wars
It makes sense only in the Bush administration's Orwellian mind to declare Star Wars "operable" even though it doesn't work. But this was Bush's goal for 2004. Thanks to you, the administration was not able to push this past Congress, due to failed testing, obvious incompetence, and serious grassroots pressure.
Voter Registration
We registered thousands of new voters and put the danger of electronic paperless voting machines in the national spotlight. Eleven states, including California, now plan to require voting systems that allow for recounts and issue verifiable paper ballots. Even Ohio—the home of Diebold, the nation's largest maker of electronic voting machines—now says it has no plans to buy any if the machines don't generate a paper trail. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 3029
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 3:31 pm: |
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"serious grassroots pressure" delayed the anti-missile system. How could a sympathetic press miss it? Because -- it didn't happen. |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 1888
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 4:23 pm: |
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Thanks for clearing that up.
Um... what? There were huge responses to True Majority's requests for emails, calls, and faxes to Congress members. Are you contending that it didn't happen, or that this didn't have any impact? |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 3034
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 9:04 pm: |
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Certainly the latter, and I doubt the former. If it was a certain Bush loss, the media would have been all over it.
And Madden, your statement of "Republicans protect each other, no matter how despicable. Democrats are only too happy to throw each other under the bus, because they don't understand the bigger picture." What reprobate have Democrats marched up the Hill and asked to step down? I'm sure you have a list in mind to make such a claim. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 1945
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 9:09 pm: |
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Zell Miller, for one. I don't know of anyone walking up to him and asking him to resign, but obviously, he's not a standard bearer. |
mwoodwalk
Citizen
Username: Mwoodwalk
Post Number: 261
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 9:57 pm: |
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Putting aside the merits of this discussion for the moment (such as they are)---I too am very troubled by the "plagiarism" for lack of a better term that Face engaged in for the post that started this thread.
That is at least the second time I've caught it (and sadly, in both cases the posts were ones with which I was sympathetic politically). Moreover, in both instances, the offending poster simply went silent re: his/her plagiarism, responding NOT AT ALL to those who pointed out the copy job.
I second the call for the moderators to make a strong statement that such posting is unacceptable and may even warrant suspension.
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