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Message |
    
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2872
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 8:46 am: | 
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I propose that the T.C. pass an ordinance outlawing the operation of all BMWs (other than the X models) when there is even a suggestion of snow. This morning, a BMW 7 something caused a traffic jam on Jefferson because it could not make it up the hill. If I had not gotten out of my car to push along with one other driver, that BMW would still be there.
Attention BMW 7 series drivers. If you can afford that car, you can also afford a Subaru. Buy one now and warehouse your BMW during the winter months. |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7329
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 9:01 am: |
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The same goes for almost any rear wheel drive car. I used to have a Volvo 940 Turbo that was the worst snow car ever made. This was the "sports" model (yeah, sporty Volvo is an oxymoron) and had performance instead of all weather tires, which I suspect is the case with the BMW. |
Master Plvmber
Citizen
Username: Master_plvmber
Post Number: 308
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 9:02 am: |
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Yesterday was one of the four or five days a year I get to laugh at Mercedes drivers from behind the wheel of my 6-year-old Jeep Cherokee Sport.
I'll take what I can get. |
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 3273
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 9:14 am: |
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My new van sucks in the snow!!! My old Caravan (equiped with the bigger engine) was never ever a problem on hills in snow. THe Toyota Sienna (we didn't get 4WD ) couldn't make it up my street! |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7330
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 9:33 am: |
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All I can say, while waving the flag is:
BUY AMERICAN
Our Mountaineer, even without low range four wheel drive, climbed every hill and when I tested it out in the unplowed section of the Millburn Mall lot it handled it perfectly!! |
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 3274
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 9:38 am: |
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bobkat- normally I'd be in agreement with you, but that old Caravan (while good in the snow) was the biggest fattest lemon in my car history! |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7331
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 9:46 am: |
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Interesting FFOF. We had two Chrysler Corporation mini-vans (a 1996 and 1999) and we didn't have any real problems. They were leases so we didn't keep them for only three years, so maybe that wasn't a real test. |
Joe
Citizen
Username: Gonets
Post Number: 653
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 10:11 am: |
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I once drove my brother's Supra Turbo in the snow. This was back in the late 80's. There was about 2 inches on the ground. I barely made it up an exit ramp in that thing. My Civic is serviceable but you have to know what you're doing. That being said if I lived on one of the hilly roads in town I would have bought a 4WD. The Civic just isn't up to the task of getting up a fairly steep road that has a layer of snow on it. |
kmk
Supporter
Username: Kmk
Post Number: 403
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 11:07 am: |
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Bobkat,
See my earlier posts about not getting up the hill....we have a Volvo V70 Turbo with a standard transmission. It's a mom's version of a hot rod but it is the WORST in the snow.
Until we get a new car, do you folks think snow chains on the rear wheels would be enough to get us up hills in a light snow? |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2874
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 11:12 am: |
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Chains! How retro. Chains are a hassle if most streets are well-cleared and you only need them for a few snow-covered hilly roads. They do work well, however. |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7335
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 11:16 am: |
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kmk, yes, but you will wear them out on the streets that have been plowed. My suggestion would be a set of snow tires for the winter, which I should have done but given the car was a company lease was to cheap to do.
We have been happy with World Tire on SA. None of the usual BS of the chains or Sears where they offer a low price, but not in your size and charge extra for balancing and valve stems. |
Wilkanoid
Citizen
Username: Cseleosida
Post Number: 304
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 11:57 am: |
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At little after noon on Saturday before the plows came, I was climbing the hill on 3rd street in South Orange going up to South Ridgewood. I waited patiently at the bottom of the hill until a volvo sedan spun its wheels and zig-zagged until it finally got to the top. My trusty Subaru wagon climbed the hill with no problem.
The large BMW behind me had to pull over almost immediately.
There's nothing like a Subaru in the snow. |
TomR
Citizen
Username: Tomr
Post Number: 454
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 11:58 am: |
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One man's opinion
It isn't RWD, or any particular vehicle which is the problem.
I own a vehicle which is about as snow worthy as the Supra to which Joe referred, and in the eleven winters I've used it, including as my regular transporter back and forth to Vermont during ski season, I got stuck once. (The tires were near the end of their service life).
Most of the problems I've seen on our roads seem to have been caused by people treating snow, slush or ice covered roads the same way they might treat a sunny May afternoon.
During the snows of '96, I used a Civic during the worst of the storms' aftermath, and had fewer problems than many 4x4s I came across.
Drive smart, drive safe.
TomR. |
Earlster
Supporter
Username: Earlster
Post Number: 895
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 12:12 pm: |
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Well, you can either for over an extra 2k to get all wheel drive, or get snow tires for a fraction of that.
I have a BMW and I had no problems whatsover, it was actually fun to drive around. Except for all those top heavy SUV's driving down hill really slow, because they handle like •••• with their summer tires and high center of gravity. |
sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 1715
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 1:56 pm: |
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I'm with TomR on this one. In my prior life I had an '84 RX-7 and an '88 Supra Turbo. I drove them both during the winter months of upstate NY and only had one problem (with the Supra on bad tires). I've found that with standard shift cars one thing to remember is to maintain constant speed. Don't gun it and above all try not to shift while going up hill. |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7340
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 2:26 pm: |
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Part of the problem with the Volvo was the turbo and the automatic transmission.
The best two wheel drive snow car I ever had was a VW Bug, the original one with the rear engine. It could go almost anywhere, but it didn't like to change direction without using the handbrake to bring the rearend around. The fun part was that as soon as you released the handbrake the car stabilized in the direction it was pointed. Really cool. Made me look like a world rally driver.  |
Debby
Citizen
Username: Debby
Post Number: 1620
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 2:33 pm: |
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kmk - Blizzak makes snow and ice tires for Volvo. I bought mine at Sears (sorry, Bob) and had excellent snow handling after that (I had a 740 (Rear Wheel Drive)) |
sac
Supporter
Username: Sac
Post Number: 1802
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 2:46 pm: |
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We have a Dodge Grand Caravan and a Honda Civic. Both have front wheel drive (no AWD or 4WD) and all-season radials (not snow tires.) The Caravan does MUCH better in snow than the Honda, although we aren't sure why. |
extuscan
Citizen
Username: Extuscan
Post Number: 417
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 6:36 pm: |
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BMWs? Puulleeez, most of those actually have traction control... Try driving in the snow in one of my RWD Jaguars with the V-12 engine and find out why you can get a really nice used one for $6000.
John |
Lydia
Citizen
Username: Lydial
Post Number: 893
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 7:07 pm: |
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Was there a snowstorm?
Hmm, me and my 10+ years old Subaru wagon w/ 4-wheel drive didn't even notice.
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johnny
Citizen
Username: Johnny
Post Number: 1176
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 9:00 pm: |
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With all SUVs there should be this really, really cool feature called 4-wheel drive. I crack up when I see stupid SUV drivers in 2-wheel mode spinning their rear wheels. |
Mr. Big Poppa
Citizen
Username: Big_poppa
Post Number: 41
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 9:32 pm: |
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Never thought I'd see Supra mentioned twice in one thread!
Meemmmmoooorrriieeeessss.......... |
Carl Thompson
Citizen
Username: Topcat
Post Number: 98
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 11:36 pm: |
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When I was a teenager (a long time ago) I used to drive my father's Oldmobile all around on snow-packed roads.
Automatic transmission. Rear-wheel drive.
Of course that was pre-oil embargo so the car was about three times heavier than any sedan on the road today. The weight helped with traction, but you still needed some minimum level of skill to keep the rear end from drifting too far out of line.
If the plows have been through and the roads are packed snow (not ice), then the problem isn't the vehicles, it's the drivers.
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Michael K. Mc Kell
Citizen
Username: Greenerose
Post Number: 546
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 8:11 am: |
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FORD F-350 4X4 Diesel. |
newone
Citizen
Username: Newone
Post Number: 196
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 8:26 am: |
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Johnny - I didn't even know you can still get 2WD on an SUV. When I bought my early SUV's, they were an option and I just laughed. Isn't that defeating the whole reason of getting one?
BTW - mine handled great - Toyota 4Runner. |
Soda
Supporter
Username: Soda
Post Number: 2425
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 8:37 am: |
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From the time we moved here in '86 until I traded it for an AWD '98 XC, I drove my rear-druve Volvo 240DL wagon (all-weather tire equipped) in any & all weathers, without difficulty or mishap.
After just about every big snowstorm, I'd clean off the car, hop in, and use the old "forward & reverse" method to power my way out of my driveway, then run back & forth until all the snow was well-tamped down. My standard was: could I walk the whole driveway in sneakers and stay dry.
It's now a schadenfreud tradition to take the wife to an early breakfast at the Ritz Diner after such a storm, just to enjoy (from a safe distance) watching drivers (of BMW's and all sorts of SUV's) struggling mightily to climb hills, navigate turns, and generally demonstrate conclusively once again that it's not the vehicle, but the DRIVER, that makes a difference.
We don't regularly get the big snows around here that places like Buffalo and Syracuse do, but that's no excuse for Jerseyites not to know or practice proper snow/ice driving technique.
-s.
BTW: When I traded the old Volvo in, it had logged 220,000 miles, and was running on its second engine. |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7348
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 8:52 am: |
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Newone, up until very recently most four wheel drive systems required that you manually engage four wheel drive with a lever or by pushing a button on the dash. Heck, I can remember when you had to get out of the vehicle and lock the hubs manually. Some base line Jeeps and others, mostly pickup trucks, still require that you manually shift into four wheel drive. Others like the Ford Explorer automatically shift into four wheel drive when the 'puter senses wheel spin.
I rather expect that a fair number of people never figure this out or read the owners manual and are surprised when they don't get the traction they expect.
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 5248
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 2:52 pm: |
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bobk, I had a Saab 900 Turbo, and it was fantastic in the snow. It had a manual transmission, so I was able to control the amount of torque. Sometimes, I even pull away from a stop in second gear, if it's really slippery. That prevents wheelspin.
Speaking of snow driving, if your car has ABS, I highly recommend you practice using it. Your reflexes are WRONG with ABS. You must stomp your brakes hard and ignore the pulsation. Take the car to a slippery road that is quiet and stomp. I do this occasionally, because I believe it requires practice. When ABS kicks in, it feels like something is very wrong, and my reflex is to back off. That reflex is wrong. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2881
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 6:01 am: |
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Well, lots of talk about the good old days of rear-wheel drive and how skilled drivers didn't have any trouble. The reality is that this BMW driver was driving as skillfully as he could, but nothing short of real snow tires or chains was going to help him. BMW 745s seem to me to be only slightly better in the snow than a flying saucer. |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7357
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 7:56 am: |
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Saabs have that reputation Tom and with the manual transmission you can keep out of the turbo.
I agree about ABS. I am pretty sure that Mrs. K had a minor fender bender because the pulsing caused her to let up on the brake pedal. She denies this of course.
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newone
Citizen
Username: Newone
Post Number: 198
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 8:19 am: |
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Bobkat - I was thinking about TRUE 2WD only with no 4WD option.
Forgot about the locking hubs feature UGH! |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7358
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 8:30 am: |
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Newone, interesting. I wonder how many 2WD SUVs are sold to private parties. I know some are sold to businesses and utilities who need the space, but not the traction. A coworker was thinking about buying one, but the dealer talked him out of it because of sharply lower resale. |
newone
Citizen
Username: Newone
Post Number: 199
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 10:26 am: |
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Bob
Not sure on that. Of course, I saw these 2WDs close to 15 years ago when I first got my SUV. Not even sure if they're made anymore. |
Carl Thompson
Citizen
Username: Topcat
Post Number: 99
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 10:35 am: |
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Tjohn,
I take your point. My comments about driving on snow simply assumed that snow tires were part of the deal. Anyone driving in these condiditions without snow tires or all-weather tires isn't in the game. If the guy in the beamer still has on his high-performance street tires in January then, yes, he'll float like a flying saucer.
Bobkat and Newone,
In other, warmer parts of the country, two-wheel drive SUVs are very popular. for example, my brother-in-law in Los Angeles has the same Highlander as I do except his is 2WD. He doesn't drive into the mountains in the winter, so he saved a few bucks on his purchase.
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newone
Citizen
Username: Newone
Post Number: 200
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 3:15 pm: |
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Carl
Didn't think of that, thanks. |
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