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Cato Nova
Citizen
Username: Cato_nova
Post Number: 474
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 11:05 am: | 
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http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/26/education.secretary.pbs.ap/index.html.
What next? Camps to isolate those trying to promote the "gay agenda"?
Many years ago, there was an anonymous essay in, I think, The Advocate, in which the author asked if he would be given shelter if he assassinated Jesse Helms. While this is a bit extreme, not to mention likely counter-productive, how long before people believe they are forced to resort to violence to halt the unrelenting assault on human rights that this government is constantly committing against gays and lesbians? Before or after the camps are set up? |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 760
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 11:22 am: |
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Gay marriage is inevitable. Rights for same-sex married couples are inevitable. It won't happen in the guaranteed-to-be-regressive next four years, where the leader of our country relishes in homophobia to stir his particularly hateful and less-than-full-deck-playing base. But the democrats in the country have fought for desegregation, fought against racism, fought for women's rights, fought for every other minority that people like our president and his supporters look to keep down. It'll take time, but it'll happen, and history won't be kind to Bush.
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Albatross
Citizen
Username: Albatross
Post Number: 460
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 12:44 pm: |
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It won't happen if you continue to insult half of the country's population.
As for the DoE action, it's a little silly at best. A lesbian couple is only different from a heterosexual couple in its members. The question "Why are that man and woman together?" is no different from "Why are those two women together?" |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 766
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 12:46 pm: |
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Albatross: unfortunately it's just slightly more than half the country. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 646
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 12:50 pm: |
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Gotta say, Cato, this is a non-starter, and nowhere near worthy of the "Nazi" and "camps" rhetoric you're throwing around. How do you get from not wanting to fund shows depeicting Lesbian families to rounding them up and putting them in camps? I'm not saying it's right. Just that it's not as horrific as you make it sound.
I'm all in favor of same-sex unions and could be pushed to favor same sex marriage, but this is far from the horrors of the Holocaust which you equate it. Shame on you, and so close to the anniversary of the Auschwitz liberation. |
overtaxdalready
Citizen
Username: Overtaxdalready
Post Number: 338
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 2:19 pm: |
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Anyone who equates Bush to "Hitler" or "nazis" can't be taken seriously. |
argon_smythe
Citizen
Username: Argon_smythe
Post Number: 517
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 2:38 pm: |
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Well that tears it then. This person on this board has done just that, so the entire debate nationwide must be thrown out on a technical foul. So, any predictions for the Super Bowl?
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Cato Nova
Citizen
Username: Cato_nova
Post Number: 476
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 2:44 pm: |
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Sorry you see it as hyperbolic, but I don't.
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
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mwoodwalk
Citizen
Username: Mwoodwalk
Post Number: 287
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 2:51 pm: |
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Cato, that just demonstrates your idiocy. Please, other than that trite poem which describes a situation NOTHING like the current American political situation (i.e., nobody is "coming" for any downtrodden group in the US to throw them in ovens), why don't you please itemize----in CONCRETE terms---the supposed parallels between the "final solution" and other Nazi horrors and the behavior of the Bush administration.
By that, I mean, please show how it is that Bush's presidency resembles the Nazi regime that invaded and TOOK OVER all of continental Europe and slaughtered millions in the process.
If you can come up with any persuasive examples, I'll be shocked. But I await with bated breath nonetheless.
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Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 655
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 4:16 pm: |
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Cato - I see it as hyperbolic not because I don't care what happens to Lesbians, but becuase this is not a surprise, nor is it the end of the world. Honestly, not funding a show because it has Lesbian couples in it? I find it silly, stupid even. But it's not exactly a firing squad. It's not even making them wear armbands identifying themselves as such.
Of all the things Bush is doing to this country, I'd put this one well below the radar. As I said above, I'm all in favor of civil unions, and could be convinced on marriages. But funding for a kids show? Even PBS didn't think this was outrageous. Which of the requests that the Secretary made were outrageous? Removal of the department seal? Notifying the pther PBS stations that it had a lesbian couple in it? Or asking (not demanding, but asking) that they refund the program's money so that the program doesn't get slammed by the ultra-right for funding "gay education?"
Or maybe you meant to post another article, and this one came up instead? I just don't see equating Bush with Nazis because they decided not to fund this show.
mwoodwalk, every administration in almost any country can be compared to Hitler in some way. I could probably come up with half a dozen similarities between Bush and Hitler off the top of my head. Not that that means I think he'll put anyone in ovens, or try to take over the world in the way that Hitler did. My point is only that you shouldn't be surprised if there are some similarities.
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Mark Fuhrman
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 1200
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 4:55 pm: |
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Cato has his flourishes, and gets his reactions. But do not lose sight of the main thrust of the Bush administration and its supporters. They are moving very firmly to roll back the presence of gays in America. They want gays back in the closet, off our TV screens, and out of the political arena--pronto.
That is very chilling to anyone who believes in personal liberties and the need for the state to keep the hell out of our lives as much as possible. Given the hateful tone of some cons on this board towards liberals (and the much more hateful tone of cons in other forums), I think anyone who differs with the radical right should be nervous at yet another attack on people who are different than the majority.
And I think cons who voted for Bush but say they support gay rights should be ashamed--this is what their compromised vote brought forth.
No, this is not equivalent to the Nazis. But it is becoming disturbingly reminiscent of the Communist witch-hunts of the '50's (be careful of dirty bathrooms and cartoon characters--they may breed Commies, er, queers). And gays are singled out for constitutional discrimination at the state level--many ban gay marriage (and do some still have anti-sodomy laws?).
Where are the real conservatives who believe in personal freedom as much as possible? Where is their moral outrage? Oh, they are too busy chortling about Ted or Hillary. |
nan
Citizen
Username: Nan
Post Number: 1757
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 7:48 pm: |
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I thought this woman was supposed to be an improvement on Rod Paige?
You can’t make this stuff up:
“. . Spellings said the "Sugartime!" episode does not fulfill the intent Congress had in mind for programming. By law, she said, any funded shows must give top attention to "research-based educational objectives, content and materials."
That’s the same argument they use to force schools to use scripted reading programs—I guess if gay parents want to be seen on TV they had better start getting hooked on phonics.
My husband says this is another way to eliminate government funding for PBS.
Anyway, here’s how USA today covered it--
Education secretary blasts children's show
By Greg Toppo, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — Public TV stations that don't mind an animated bunny breaking bread with a same-sex couple have the option of airing a show that the U.S. secretary of education finds objectionable.
The as-yet-unaired episode of Postcards from Buster, an animated children's travelogue, takes place in Vermont, which recognizes same-sex civil unions. Buster, a bunny who also appears in PBS' long-running Arthur series, meets real children and sends "video postcards" back home. In the Vermont episode, a girl introduces Buster to "my mom and Gillian," and the group sits down to dinner.
PBS, which receives a federal literacy grant to produce the show, pulled it Tuesday amid criticism from Education Secretary Margaret Spellings, who blasted it for featuring lesbian parents. But the show's creator, Boston station WGBH, will air it anyway and can provide the show to other PBS stations. A WGBH spokeswoman said Wednesday that a dozen stations have asked to take a look and decide for themselves.
Spellings, a former White House domestic adviser whose first day as education secretary was Monday, wrote PBS president Pat Mitchell on Tuesday with "strong and very serious concerns."
She says the episode strays from the intent of the government program designed to prepare preschoolers for school: "Many parents would not want their young children exposed to the lifestyles portrayed in this episode."
Spellings was applauded by James Dobson's Focus on the Family, which has criticized the use of the SpongeBob SquarePants cartoon character in a video it says promotes homosexuality.
Karen Pike, one of the Vermont mothers, called the objections "disgusting." The show is "trying to show that kids are kids and that there are many kinds of families," says Pike, 42, a photographer who has done freelance work for USA TODAY.
Spellings also asks that PBS "strongly consider" refunding the federal money used for the episode. John Wilson, PBS's senior vice president for programming, says PBS will not refund the money but will shoot another episode.
Wilson says PBS officials already had decided to pull the episode before Spellings' letter arrived. The mention of same-sex parents, while "pure backdrop," was obscuring "what we had hoped would be a wonderful story about sugaring in Vermont," he says.
Asked how Buster reacted to the two moms, Wilson replied: "Buster is a very tolerant and accepting rabbit, and he sort of took it at face value."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-01-26-education-pbs_x.htm
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Ginny Brown
Citizen
Username: Ginny_brown
Post Number: 4
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 10:36 am: |
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I am very frightened for my self and my partner and kids in this very hostile climate. I am eternally grateful to live in South Orange. I fear for my "brothers and sisters" who live in hostile areas of the country. They are having the parental rights stripped away. They are living in fear. When Hitler was ELECTED in Germany in the 1930's one of his FIRST acts of legislation was to ban interfaith marriage. It was popular and as a result, he continued to pursue "popular" issues. He was wildly popular for his "boldness" and his "optimism" and he was destroying the jews-first by destroying family, then by economic destruction, then the "final solution." He used the emotional politics of fear and hate as a rallying cry to forward his agenda, and to seize and hold power. In fact, there are many parallels to Hitler's style of leadership and George Bush's style. If you don't believe me, read Ian Kershaw's 2000 page book on Hitler. I have. |
CageyD
Citizen
Username: Cageyd
Post Number: 216
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 5:14 pm: |
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THough I disagree with the Education Secretary's comments and point of view, I must also ask, what is PBS thinking by even letting this issue come up. This administratin has created an extremely hostile environment for gay rights. I don't understand why this episode was even made at this point in time. When the gay rights groups pushed for gay marriage under BUsh 2, two things happened 1)there was a ground swell for a constitutional ammendment banning gay marriage 2) it brought social conservatives out of the wood work to elect Bush to four more years. Introducing this episode now will likely create an outcry to reduce if not eliminate federal funding for PBS. The timing on this was really irresponsible and could have lasting negative affects for PBS.
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anon
Citizen
Username: Anon
Post Number: 1630
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 5:37 pm: |
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Does anyone in this country besides me and John Kerry remember that Dick Cheney's daughter is gay and involved in a long-term gay relationship, and that she was an official of her dad's campaign? Did anyone notice that the one campaign issue that Bush backed off from immediately after being sworn in was the push for a Constitutional Amendment to ban gay marraige? I'm not sure whether GWB himself is really opposed to gay marraige but I'd bet he doesn't think it is very important either way. He and his administration just have to placate their supporters on the Religious Right.
What really motivates the Bushites is privatizing social security, permanentizing tax cuts, "tort reform" and "bringing democracy" to the world. |
Ginny Brown
Citizen
Username: Ginny_brown
Post Number: 5
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 10:38 am: |
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CageyD-I struggle with exactly what you discuss. Is the best strategy to lay low and let the conservative tsunami pass? Or does Silence Equal Death? I'm not much of a fighter so it is more comfortable for me to lay low. However, history suggests that laying low won't stop the attacks on gay people it will only embolden the hate groups. Don't think that if there is a constitutional amendment against gay marriage that passes, that the hate groups will just walk away from the issue. They will attack (and have) the rights of gay parents to keep and raise their children, the rights of gay people to work. In fact, I'm looking for confirmation, but I heard last night from a reputable person that there are 3 senators who are "floating" the idea that children who have been with same sex parents for under 2 years should be removed! I need to find out facts. Maybe someone who reads this knows more and could help me not be so upset by this. The idea that a few of the most powerful people in the country would utter those words is frightening and I don't think that silence will stop the hate rhetoric. I don't think we can afford silence although I wish we could because it is my inclincation. I think PBS needs to be supported to fight back and say that teaching tolerance to kids is right! |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 655
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 11:39 am: |
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"In fact, I'm looking for confirmation, but I heard last night from a reputable person that there are 3 senators who are "floating" the idea that children who have been with same sex parents for under 2 years should be removed!"
Will never, ever happen.
And a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage will never, ever pass.
One person's tolerance is another person's radical agenda. A significant portion of this country -- a naive, misguided, uninformed and easily duped portion, in my humble opinion -- sees homosexuality as an abomination. Not just unto god, but unto humanity. This is a fundamental thing the pro-gay crowd (for lack of a better blanket adjective) often fails to grasp. This is not just about some verse in the Bible.
Yes, we can scratch our heads and say, "Did that person really SAY that ludicrous thing?" And we scratch even harder when it is a high-ranking government official. But such is the country we live in. Supporters of gay marriage, such as myself, tend to too quickly see this as nothing but a civil rights issue. Of course it is to us. But to a big swath of our country, it is anything but. For them, it is a fundamental issue of morality.
This is a fight I want to see won, and I want to see it won in the right way. Passing laws seen as granting special civil-rights protection to specific groups is wrongheaded, and sends all the wrong messages. If you're gay and you need a special law passed to protect your job, your family, your personal property, your right to share your life with whomever you want, your basic safety...then I'm afraid your country has failed you. The fix for that needs to be far more fundamental than a special law that grants you special rights (such as the ability to file a tax return jointly with anyone you want! Congratulations!)
As I said in the beginning, the anti-gay crowd has made this into a fight over fundamental issues of humanity and morality. That's the one thing they're right about. |
CageyD
Citizen
Username: Cageyd
Post Number: 218
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 11:44 pm: |
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Ginny, I just think putting these types of issues forward now will just lead to setbacks. When (it is when and not if, right) we get a more progressive president and congress, I hope they will be able to move the bar forward from where it is now. If we suffer major setbacks in rights today, we will have to wait years just to get to where we are now. We can't just be emotional we must also be strategic. Timing is everything and I think it makes sense to lay low re: trying to push a more progressive agenda forward until there is a more receptive ear in Washington. That doesn't mean I think we should allow rights to be pushed backwards by crazy GOP members. But issues like the PBS thing gives them fuel for their fires and may serve to encourage them to try to push their agenda further than before because they have the outcry from the heartland demanding a stop to the enrochment of liberal values. Thinking strategically not emotionally is important at a time like this. |
TomR
Citizen
Username: Tomr
Post Number: 469
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 1, 2005 - 12:23 am: |
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I've posted this elsewhere, /discus/messages/26018/50876.html?1102206989 but think its important enough to bear repetition.
There is a bill pending in our U.S. Senate on referral from the House. The bill number is H.R. 3313.
The bill can be found at senate.gov under the Legislation and Records tab.
Argue here if you must regarding same sex unions/marriages, but contact our Senators to let them know what you think of H.R. 3313.
TomR.
Cato, Sorry to continue with the thread highjacking, but... |
SteveM
Citizen
Username: Maplewoodsteve
Post Number: 17
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 2, 2005 - 12:46 am: |
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CageyD: "When the gay rights groups pushed for gay marriage under Bush 2, two things happened..." }
Actually, the major public reaction occurred after the heterosexual mayor of San Francisco and the heterosexual mayor of New Paltz began issuing marriage licenses without consulting major gay rights groups about the strategic impact or timing of doing so. Their hearts were in the right place and their intentions were good, but their timing might not have been the best. Perhaps if they had waited until after the presidential election, the end result might have been more favorable.
On the other hand, you can't simply sit around waiting for the perfect time to advance civil rights. There is never a perfect time and there is always a backlash.
Current polls show that a significant majority of Americans now support civil unions, which was not true before marriage equality became a big and public issue, so it has been a case of 2 steps forward, 1 step back (or 1 forward, 2 back, depending on your point of view). |
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