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Message |
    
Phenixrising
Citizen
Username: Phenixrising
Post Number: 383
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 1, 2005 - 9:29 am: | 
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MJ
Don't you dare tell me that I'm not concerned about people determining their own fate. Its all I'm concerned about.
Read your own quote MJ;
If Iraq becomes a free democracy, and an ally that helps to spread liberty and freedom to other middle east countries, then a million or more deaths will be worth it.
At what cost? The many soldiers and innocent Iraqi’s who've died because of this illegal war?
and…
You CONTINUE to AVOID my QUESTION!
When are you joining-up? Our troops are over-extended!
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Phenixrising
Citizen
Username: Phenixrising
Post Number: 384
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 1, 2005 - 9:45 am: |
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Also MJ,
Ask South Africa how THEY were FREED from Apartheid & oppression. Maybe you should have a "sit-down" with Nelson Mandela. Even though "people of color" suffered under this brutal regime, they didn't have to lose as many innocent South Africans as the Iraqi's. Because of economic sanctions and with many countries divested of their South African holdings, millions of lives were NOT lost.
BTW the US once supported this government under this Apartheid regime back-in-the-day.
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Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 1519
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 2, 2005 - 4:15 pm: |
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I'm floundering in illogic:
from your post:
Incidentally, I never said you don't know anyone involved in this situation. Your assumption that I did say that is congruent with your apparent desperation or, might I say, clamoring for some kind of Ultimate Enemy to feel righteous about killing.
From your previous post:
Admit, further, that you are unaffected by the death and horror that has occurred in Iraq to date, as long as you don't personally know anyone involved and can crow that this is all about spreading freedom.
Then there is:
yes, I did say let's go get Osama. He murdered 3,000 of my countrymen and I'd like to see justice served. There's no re-making of a society involved in that effort
And:
You CAN'T kill all the bad guys and then say to everyone that's left, "Okay, new game. We're starting over now. Everything is fine."
There are some bad guys out there that deserve to be rounded up and executed (like Osama), but don't kid yourself that you solve a "problem" like terrorism by killing all the bad guys.
Its no wonder that you didn't think Kerry was a flipflopper... compared to you, he's straight as an arrow.
I NEVER, NEVER NEVER said the solutuion was to just kill the bad guys. I said the solution is to promote freedom and democracy that changes the environment and eventually snuffs out support for terror.
Your problem is that you are a small thinker. You believe you are intellectually superior to many, but in fact you can't grasp even the simplest of concepts.
You actually complain that I'm saying that I want to kill the enemies when thats all you want, you don't want to re-make society, and I do. somehow you believe that if we just bring Osama to justice and cower to everyone else (like the UN), they will like us and not kill us anymore.
So when in history has that ever worked?
I want to think big, and luckily so does the administration and the majority of the American people. We WANT to re-make society so oppressed peoples are freed.
Face it, you just don't care about oppressedd people. You don't care about freedom, and you most certainly don't care about the long term safety and security of the United States. If you did, you'd WANT the middle east to become a free place, you'd want human rights spread to these dictatorships, and you'd WANT our soldiers fighting for that.
But, alas, you don't.
You know nothing about terrorism. Look at Israel, they kill the terrorist leaders, and destroy terror cells, and guess what, terror strikes GO DOWN. Sure, twist the actual facts around and start telling me that Israel is less safe with the wall and targeted strikes. Right. Tell me how it spawns terrorists. The fact there are fewer and fewer attacks in Israel belies your pretzel logic.
As for being wrong... I'll gladly admit when I am, but so far, the way things are going, I've been 100% on the side of right. It must be killing you, well probably not, because you don't live in reality... you live in the bizzaro world.
Doesn't it get to you, even a little, that EVERY one of your dire predictions has been totally and unequivocably wrong? You haven't made one post about politics, economics, the environment, or terrorism, or the war that has turned out to be correct. Sure, you THINK you're right all the time, but really, its time to face reality (not that you ever will without years of intensive therapy).
So far every one of your theories and predictions has been proven wrong... yet you still tow the same tired old lines. Whats even funnier is that you can't break even one of your arguments down to premises and conclusions. They are all strawmen.
Oh, and its not what you say that makes me sick, its how you justify your positions by projecting your inadequacies on others, how you think. What you say is usually so incredibly inane and illogical that its not worth fretting over.
Albatross,
the KKK is not sponsored. It has supporters, but as free people we make laws that marginalize them and prosecute them.
As for why the anger is channeled toward us and not the aggressor or tyrant, look to Syria as an example... a small insurgent group tried to overthrow his regime. Assad found out about it, and went in to the village where the group was based, killed EVERYONE in the village (whether they had anything to do with it or not), blew up all the buildings and then paved over the ENTIRE VILLAGE. He then sent death squads to neighboring villages and killed ANYONE who was related to anyone in the village he destroyed. That is ANYONE, women, children, anyone. Then Assad put out an edict that terror against the US or Israel is fine, but don't mess with his regime.
In these places like Egypt, you can't have more than 3 people together in the street without government permission, under penalty of imprisonment.
In Saddam era Iraq, you would disappear if you said that Saddam wasn't as handsome in that picture as he is in this one.
Without help, you can't rise up against these oppressors.
Luckily the US is helping.
Phenix,
I've answered this over and over... I'm too old to join, too unskilled to work for Haliburton, and have too many financial responsibilities to do so too. However I do quite a bit to support the effort... If you need me to list it yet again, I will.
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Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 800
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 2, 2005 - 4:29 pm: |
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Janay: you're not too old to join. You just don't want to. Until then, stop talking in the first person about spreading democracy and promoting freedom. You're not remaking any society. You're standing on the sidelines cheerleading for the people doing the actual work. You're not freeing anyone.
As for living in bizarro world...how again does a million people dead count as a victory?
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Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 1520
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 2, 2005 - 4:41 pm: |
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I realize you're too dense to understand that 1,000,000 to save 10,000,000 lives and free 100,000,000 would be a tremendous victory. So Robert, how many lives is saving 100,000,000 worth? None?
And I sure am cheerleading the people doing the difficult work. But I am freeing people, I'm doing it by voting for the President. I'm re-making society by participating in the most important aspect of free society. I did it by supporting and helping to get re-elected a leader that IS promoting freedom throughout the world.
You're just jealous that I voted for the winner and you voted for the loser, and that you are in the minority.
Hahahahahahahaha |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 1999
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 2, 2005 - 5:21 pm: |
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MJ, until you get some reading comprehension skills, arguing with you is puerile. The passage you bolded does not mean you don't know anyone there, it means that in the situations where you do not know anyone, you don't give a crap about their lives. Of course, I don't KNOW that it is actually true, any more than you know it about others that you accuse of it. I said it to point out what a retarded remark it was when you made it.
I don't know what flip-flopping you perceive in my stance on Osama. He did something to us, I want him to be caught for it. That you can find some similarity in that situation to the one in Iraq is confusing, to say the least. I fear you are coming unhinged.
By the way, I'm right all the time; I hardly need your recognition for that to be any more true. I know you're just trying to be rude now - you should realize that you have to be respected in order for that to be effective. My environmental stuff is all well documented (and my scientists and publications are bigger than yours). I was right that the administration was going to do a crappy job at the post-combat phase in Iraq, which I claimed long before we invaded. I was right that the Iraqi election would be almost completely symbolic. I was right that Bush was going to make the tax cuts permanent and that it was a bad idea. I was right that Whitman was a powerless puppet the day after she took the job at the EPA. I could go on and on. In fact, I correctly predicted almost every category of screw-up that we were going to have to deal with under W just after he first got into the White House.
"Don't you dare tell me that I'm not concerned about people determining their own fate. Its all I'm concerned about."
Heeey, now that IS impressive. It's an honor to be addressing such a humanitarian. So, I guess your business is some sort of non-profit organization that promotes democracy? Tell us all about it. Actually, don't waste your time, I'm sure your very busy spreading freedom or something. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 802
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 2, 2005 - 8:00 pm: |
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Janay: Notehead is right, you are unhinged. Seriously, dude, are you okay? |
Mustt_mustt
Citizen
Username: Mustt_mustt
Post Number: 254
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 2, 2005 - 8:27 pm: |
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Janay is not a dude, he's an "old man." |
Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 1398
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 2, 2005 - 9:59 pm: |
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I guess all those CIA assasinations in Vietnam (and other places) never really happened. Or maybe "our" terrorists get to call themselves something nicer? |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2905
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 2, 2005 - 10:19 pm: |
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I saw a CNN poll in which 10% of respondents said they would be willing to die for the freedom of Iraq, but almost half of Americans support the war. Now, I realize the CNN polls are subject to considerable error, but I found it troubling that so many more people support the war than are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 681
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 12:48 am: |
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tjohn, are you really surprised? If so, I have a bridge to sell you. If the question were about making the ultimate sacrifice for USA freedom, I'm sure the number would be higher. But there are always people willing to let others die for their cause. Even in the Civil war (and possibly earlier), rich men were able to pay poor men to go fight in their place. Now we as a country pay to have poor men fight in our place.
Don't get me wrong - I'm a huge fan of the volunteer army. I just wish (as I assume tjohn does) that there was of a feeling of obligation (like in some other countries) to serve, rather than so few being a part of the "army of one." (is that a stupid slogan or what? - be all you can be. Now THAT was a decent slogan. The few, the proud, the marines. Another great one. But Army of One? Makes me think I'd be out there on my own with no one at my back.) |
Phenixrising
Citizen
Username: Phenixrising
Post Number: 394
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 8:41 am: |
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Phenix,
I've answered this over and over... I'm too old to join, too unskilled to work for Haliburton, and have too many financial responsibilities to do so too. However I do quite a bit to support the effort... If you need me to list it yet again, I will.
MJ,
Your NOT to old to join. There are plenty of National Guards folks and military reservist that are serving in Iraq over the age of 50! The oldest soldier to die in combat in Iraq was also in the National Guard, 54-year-old grandfather Sgt. Roger Dale Rowe of Bon Aqua, Tenn. Rowe, who had served as a medic in Vietnam, was killed by a sniper July 9, 2003
too unskilled to work for Haliburton,
Can you drive a truck? If not, Haliburton can train you to deliver supplies to our troops. Doesn’t take a whole lot of skills. BTW - they pay well and the money is TAX FREE!
have too many financial responsibilities to do so too.
And what about the majority of troops in Iraq? They have financial responsibilities too! Matter fact, some of them are in financial hardship, yet, they continue to serve.
However I do quite a bit to support the effort...
Every excuse but to SERVE. Yet, millions must die (whomever) to secure democracy. 
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newone
Citizen
Username: Newone
Post Number: 206
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 9:26 am: |
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I usually stay out of these discussions but here is something that I received from a friend serving in Iraq. Don't know where it originated from.
The Flight Back Home
I sat in my seat of the Boeing 767 waiting for everyone to hurry and stow
their carry-ons and grab a seat so we could start what I was sure to be a
long , uneventful flight home. With the huge
capacity and slow moving people taking their time to stuff luggage far too
big for the overhead and never paying much attention to holding up the
growing line behind them, I simply shook my head knowing that this flight
was not starting out very well.
I was anxious to get home to see my loved ones so I was focused on "my"
issues and just felt like standing up and yelling for some of these clowns
to get their act together. I knew I couldn't say a word so I just thumbed
thru the "Sky Mall" magazine from the seat pocket in front of me. You know
it's really getting rough when you resort to the over priced, useless sky
mall crap to break the monotony. With everyone finally seated, we just sat
there with the cabin door open and no one in any hurry to get us going
although we were well past the scheduled take off time. No wonder the
airline industry is in trouble I told myself.
Just then, the attendant came on the intercom to inform us all that we were
being delayed.
The entire plane let out a collective groan. She resumed speaking to say
"We are ho lding the aircraft for some very special people who are on their
way to the plane and the delay shouldn't be more than 5 minutes. The word
came after waiting six times as long as we were promised that "I" was
finally going to be on my way home. Why the hoopla over "these" folks? I
was expecting some celebrity or sport figure to be the reason for the hold
up.........Just get their butts in a seat and lets hit the gas I thought.
The attendant came back on the speaker to announce in a loud and excited
voice that we were being joined by several U. S. Marines returning home
from Iraq!!! Just as they walked on board, the entire plane erupted into
applause. The men were a bit
taken by surprise by the 340 people cheering for them as they searched for
their seats. They were having their hands shook and touched by almost
everyone who was within an arm's distance of them as they passed down the
aisle. One elderly woman kissed the hand of on e of the Marines as he passed by her.
The applause, whistles and cheering didn't stop for a long time.
When we were finally airborne, "I" was not the only civilian checking his
conscience as to the delays in "me" getting home, finding my easy chair, a
cold beverage and the remote in my hand. These men had done for all of us
and I had been complaining silently about "me" and "my" issues. I took for
granted the everyday freedoms I enjoy and the conveniences of the American
way of life I took for granted others paid the price for my ability to moan
and complain about a few minutes delay to "me" those Heroes going home to
their loved ones.
I attempted to get my selfish outlook back in order and minutes before we
landed I suggested to the attendant that she announce over the speaker a
request for everyone to remain in their seats until our hero's were allowed
to gather their things and be first off the plane. The cheers an d applause
continued until the last Marine stepped off and we all rose to go about our
too often taken for granted everyday freedoms......... I felt proud of
them. I felt it an honor and a privilege to be among the first to welcome
them home and say Thank You for a job well done. I vowed that I will never
forget that flight nor the lesson learned. I can't say it enough, THANK YOU
to those Veterans and active
servicemen and women who may read this and a prayer for those who cannot
because they are no longer with us.
GOD BLESS AMERICA! WELCOME HOME! AND THANKS FOR A JOB WELL DONE !!!!!
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Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 1527
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 1:02 pm: |
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Phenix,
The maximum age for enlisting is 28. You should stop talking about what you have no idea.
Halliburton doesn't pay well enough to get me to go, and if I did, I'd be taking a job away from someone who needs it more than I. I looked in to it. They don't do major training, they want experienced people. Like I sadi, I looked in to it.
Oh, and I am working on a few things that will definetly spread democracy and capitalism to Iraq. I need some investors, interested? It might even involve my going over there at some point. We'll see. I don't know if it will happen yet. |
Phenixrising
Citizen
Username: Phenixrising
Post Number: 396
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 1:27 pm: |
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“Under a program started two months ago, the Army has raised its age limit for new recruits to 40 years old from 34.”
try again…
Oh, and I am working on a few things that will definetly spread democracy and capitalism to Iraq. I need some investors, interested? It might even involve my going over there at some point.
Sounds like your supporting this war for your OWN PROFIT.
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Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 811
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 1:39 pm: |
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War profiteering? I've never heard a republican who would engage in that kind of...oh, wait.
But as long as a biproduct is "spreading democracy" which I hear now comes in a convenient squeeze bottle... |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7477
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 2:20 pm: |
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To be fair to Michael I think of all the neo-cons posting here he would be the most likely to enlist if he could. I believe he posted about a "youthful indiscretion" when this subject came up a while ago.
If you go back to WWII, Korea and Vietnam you see a different reaction on the part of the elite. I believe a number of Congressmen resigned to go on active duty shortly after Pearl Harbor and Harry Truman came close to resigning from the Senate to go on active duty with the Missouri National Guard where he was a Colonel.
Certainly the sons of elite served in WWII. Both of FDRs sons served in combat as did the older Kennedy boys, etc., etc. Even in Vietnam I believe a lot of young people named Eisenhower served, as did sons in law of both Nixon and Johnson. Yeah, the draft had something to do with this, but still many served as officers and in combat.
Nowadays it is much different. The elite, are insulating their children from service and we are relying on what we politely call a professional military, but one that is mostly made up of people who join because the opportunities are better than in civilian life or because for immigrants service can speed up the citizenship process. Very few sons and daughters of Congressmen, Senators, senior Administration officials choose to serve.
Personally I feel that a lot of politicians might not be so quick on the draw if their own sons and daughters were going to have to go "in harms way" as John Paul Jones put it many, many years ago.
OK, end of rant. |
Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 1529
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 2:30 pm: |
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Where did you get that the age is 40?
Please post a link... I'm interested.
Profiteering is taking advantage of a situation. I'm working on a deal to bring some of the extremely popular US products and services to Iraq.
And yes, it would be for MY OWN PROFIT!
So where do you work? |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 3078
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 2:32 pm: |
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"one that is mostly made up of people who join because the opportunities are better than in civilian life or because for immigrants service can speed up the citizenship process"
I'm sure if you went to Ft Bragg, Ft Hood, Camp Pendleton and described the majority serving there that way to their face they'd probably give you a very passionate reaction. Possibly even a 'rant.' |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 813
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 2:43 pm: |
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Ah, yes, spreadable capitalism, the gooey biproduct of spreadable democracy. Now with flip-top cap. |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7478
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 3:07 pm: |
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cjc, and last month the Marines failed to make their recruiting quota for the first time since 1995. We wouldn't even talk about the Guard.
I am in no way being critical of the young men and women who join, nor do I think patriotism isn't part of the equation. The big question is why then, in most cases, aren't the sons and daughters of the upper middle class and the elite rushing to join? Has the nitty gritty of carrying a rifle in defense of one's country become exclusively a working class endeavour?
Amongst the young people I know who are in the military, most of whom are very much middle class, three are there because they decided to take the King's Shilling in the form of ROTC scholarships while in college and the fourth went to West Point with no intention of staying in beyond his six year (?) committment. Last year when I accompanied Little K to the Columbia College and Careers night, the military recruiters, including ROTC, resembled the Maytag repairman. They didn't have any customers.
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Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 814
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 3:19 pm: |
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So, what' it gonna be, Janay? Should we drop leaflets bracing the Iraqis for Corporate America coming to sell its wretched things? Nothing spells democracy like an assortment of artificially flavored snack chips. Is that it? I hope it's nothing that needs to be plugged in...or requires a steady supply of running water. |
Dave
Moderator
Username: Dave
Post Number: 5158
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 3:35 pm: |
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http://www.apple.com/trailers/independent/gunner_palace.html |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 684
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 1:44 pm: |
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goarmy.com still says 17-34 yeasrs old.
http://www.goarmy.com/JobCatList.do?fw=careerindex
Same for the Navy. |
marie
Citizen
Username: Marie
Post Number: 1252
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 1:55 pm: |
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"The big question is why then, in most cases, aren't the sons and daughters of the upper middle class and the elite rushing to join? Has the nitty gritty of carrying a rifle in defense of one's country become exclusively a working class endeavour?"
My nephew, a 28 year old attorney with one of the "big" law firms in NY, joined the Marines several months ago - he is currently in his 5th week of bootcamp down in S.C and guess what!?
He's not even a Republican!
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Soda
Supporter
Username: Soda
Post Number: 2481
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 2:48 pm: |
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Social climber... |
Dave
Moderator
Username: Dave
Post Number: 5163
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 3:14 pm: |
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That just shows what a bad career choice corporate law is.  |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7493
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 4:44 pm: |
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Marie, good for him. There must be an interesting story there. Maybe the Washington Times?  |
marie
Citizen
Username: Marie
Post Number: 1253
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 4:46 pm: |
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Intellectual Properties Law
Someone, you may need one day Dave... |
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