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Archive through February 2, 2005sbenoisMark Fuhrman20 2-2-05  10:09 pm
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mem
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Username: Mem

Post Number: 4589
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 7:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How many democrats are financial analysts, brokers, traders, numbers guys, etc. Not many. I have to trust the republicans on this one. My "red" financial advisor has made me a lot more money than my piddling, weak social security investment ever will.
1.5% vs a possible 7.5%? Sorry dems, let repubs do what they're good at.
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sbenois
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Post Number: 13101
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Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 7:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unfunded school mandates?
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wharfrat
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Username: Wharfrat

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Registered: 6-2001
Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 7:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Except mem, the GOP who support privatization can't answer this-


quote:

Many Unhappy Returns

The fight over Social Security is, above all, about what kind of society we want to have. But it's also about numbers. And the numbers the privatizers use just don't add up.

Let me inflict some of those numbers on you. Sorry, but this is important.

Schemes for Social Security privatization, like the one described in the 2004 Economic Report of the President, invariably assume that investing in stocks will yield a high annual rate of return, 6.5 or 7 percent after inflation, for at least the next 75 years. Without that assumption, these schemes can't deliver on their promises. Yet a rate of return that high is mathematically impossible unless the economy grows much faster than anyone is now expecting.

To explain why, I need to talk about stock returns. The yield on a stock comes from two components: cash that the company pays out in the form of dividends and stock buybacks, and capital gains. Right now, if dividends and buybacks were the whole story, the rate of return on stocks would be only 3 percent.

To get a 6.5 percent rate of return, you need capital gains: if dividends yield 3 percent, stock prices have to rise 3.5 percent per year after inflation. That doesn't sound too unreasonable if you're thinking only a few years ahead.

But privatizers need that high rate of return for 75 years or more. And the economic assumptions underlying most projections for Social Security make that impossible.

The Social Security projections that say the trust fund will be exhausted by 2042 assume that economic growth will slow as baby boomers leave the work force. The actuaries predict that economic growth, which averaged 3.4 percent per year over the last 75 years, will average only 1.9 percent over the next 75 years.

In the long run, profits grow at the same rate as the economy. So to get that 6.5 percent rate of return, stock prices would have to keep rising faster than profits, decade after decade.

The price-earnings ratio - the value of a company's stock, divided by its profits - is widely used to assess whether a stock is overvalued or undervalued. Historically, that ratio averaged about 14. Today it's about 20. Where would it have to go to yield a 6.5 percent rate of return?

I asked Dean Baker, of the Center for Economic and Policy Research, to help me out with that calculation (there are some technical details I won't get into). Here's what we found: by 2050, the price-earnings ratio would have to rise to about 70. By 2060, it would have to be more than 100.

In other words, to believe in a privatization-friendly rate of return, you have to believe that half a century from now, the average stock will be priced like technology stocks at the height of the Internet bubble - and that stock prices will nonetheless keep on rising.

Social Security privatizers usually defend their bullishness by saying that stock investors earned high returns in the past. But stocks are much more expensive than they used to be, relative to corporate profits; that means lower dividends per dollar of share value. And economic growth is expected to be slower.

Which brings us to the privatizers' Catch-22.

They can rescue their happy vision for stock returns by claiming that the Social Security actuaries are vastly underestimating future economic growth. But in that case, we don't need to worry about Social Security's future: if the economy grows fast enough to generate a rate of return that makes privatization work, it will also yield a bonanza of payroll tax revenue that will keep the current system sound for generations to come.

Alternatively, privatizers can unhappily admit that future stock returns will be much lower than they have been claiming. But without those high returns, the arithmetic of their schemes collapses.

It really is that stark: any growth projection that would permit the stock returns the privatizers need to make their schemes work would put Social Security solidly in the black.

And I suspect that at least some privatizers know that. Mr. Baker has devised a test he calls "no economist left behind": he challenges economists to make a projection of economic growth, dividends and capital gains that will yield a 6.5 percent rate of return over 75 years. Not one economist who supports privatization has been willing to take the test.

But the offer still stands. Ladies and gentlemen, would you care to explain your position?

Originally published in The New York Times, 2.1.05



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mem
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Username: Mem

Post Number: 4591
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Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 7:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wharf,
Point taken. What's the dem's solution?
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sbenois
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Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 8:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gee that's odd. The article criticizes an assumed +6.5 ROR but doesn't mention the 19% loss that new people entering the system are staring at if we maintain the status quo. Or the fact that the retirement age will have to be increased. Or that SS taxes will have to be raised.

So much for assuming.


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mem
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Username: Mem

Post Number: 4594
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Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 8:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If it is left as is, the system is going to be more of a mess. Solutions are in order, this contrary posturing is absurd.
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sbenois
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Username: Sbenois

Post Number: 13104
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Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 8:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BTW, I LOVE that line about the "bonanza of payroll taxes". What exactly does that mean? The only way to increase payroll taxes (revenues) is to either increase the SS tax rate (or continue raising the SS MAX) or to dramatically increase the number of workers at a rate that offsets those entering retirement. Given that the actuary tables already show that the numbers of people paying/working will be more than offset by the retiring baby boomers, the only solution is to open the borders or make China/India or Indonesia a state.

And find them all jobs.


Like I said much earlier in this thread: it's a math issue. We can't run away from it. Bush's ideas might not be the solution, but the dialogue MUST take place.

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mwoodwalk
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Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 9:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mr. Surovell, here's a recent "Krugman Truth Squad" offering. I highly recommend you to the full series of articles on National Review Online.

<<<<Take the Krugman 6.5% Challenge
It’s dirty work (not really), but someone has to do it.

Paul Krugman and Dean Baker have a challenge for those of us who advocate Social Security reform with personal accounts.

Krugman, of course, is America’s most dangerous liberal pundit — but maybe you’ve never heard of Baker. He’s co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research, a leftist think-tank funded by George Soros. Krugman and Baker were recently cited as “excellent sources” on Social Security reform by the Communist Party USA.

Here’s the challenge, from Krugman’s New York Times column Tuesday:

Mr. Baker has devised a test he calls “no economist left behind”: he challenges economists to make a projection of economic growth, dividends and capital gains that will yield a 6.5 percent rate of return over 75 years. Not one economist who supports privatization has been willing to take the test.

But the offer still stands. Ladies and gentlemen, would you care to explain your position?

Krugman is using Baker’s test to try to suggest that stocks can’t possibly have the kind of returns in the future that they’ve had in the past — so Social Security reform with personal accounts that could invest in stocks is bound to fail. And he’s suggesting that Baker’s brilliance has stunned the opponents of reform into silence. Hardly — it’s just that none of us would have bothered to pay attention to someone like Baker if Krugman hadn’t elevated him to the pages of America’s so-called “newspaper of record.”

It’s dirty work, but someone has to do it.

Actually, it isn’t especially difficult. But to make the exercise interesting, I’ll limit myself to data Krugman himself offers in his very same Times column. Stand back, everybody — here goes.

Krugman states that the return on stocks from dividends and share repurchases is 3 percent. He states that “profits grow at the same rate as the economy,” and notes that “economic growth ... averaged 3.4 percent per year over the last 75 years.” It’s simple arithmetic that if dividends grow at the rate of earnings growth, and earnings grow at the rate of GDP growth, and if the dividend and repurchase yield stays at 3 percent, then stock prices must rise each year by 3.4 percent.

That’s 3 percent per year in yield plus 3.4 percent in capital gains. Sounds like a 6.4 percent return, to me. Just a hair shy of the 6.5 percent Krugman and Baker asked for, but I am still going to declare victory.

Even without the arithmetic, there’s nothing so unusual about thinking that stocks could return something like 6.5 percent, after inflation, over the next 75 years. After all, they’ve returned exactly that over the last 75 years, according to Ibbotson Associates. Stocks are somewhat more highly valued today than they have been on average in the past, but that may well be nothing more sinister than a reflection of the risk-reduction opportunities in today’s globalized economy. Besides, today’s valuations are fully reflected in the 3 percent dividend and repurchase yield that Krugman himself posited.

What does the guru of long-term stock investing — celebrated Wharton professor Jeremy Siegel — have to say about it? According to a Krugman column two weeks ago, “even Jeremy Siegel, whose ‘Stocks for the Long Run’ is often cited by those who favor stocks over bonds, has conceded that ‘returns on stocks over bonds won’t be as large as in the past.’” The point being that Americans would be better off leaving their Social Security taxes invested in the bonds held by the system’s trust funds, rather than investing in stocks through personal accounts.

But Krugman Truth Squad member Jim Glass, on the Scrivener.net blog, caught Krugman “Dowdifying” that quotation. What Siegel really said, after the sentence Krugman deceptively selected was, “I see a 5%-to-6% return on stocks, adjusted for inflation. I’m pessimistic about real bond returns.”

Okay, 5 to 6 percent isn’t quite 6.5 percent. But it’s close. And it’s a heck of a lot better than the rates of return offered by today’s Social Security system. According to the Congressional Budget Office, Social Security offers very poor returns for the median quintile of household earners — the present value of their payroll taxes is greater than the present value of their future benefits.

But Krugman does make one good point in Tuesday’s column. He states that stock returns in the neighborhood of 6.5 percent will not be possible over the coming 75 years if economic growth is as low as the 1.9 percent rate used by the actuaries of the Social Security Administration in their solvency estimates. He says that for that to occur, “you have to believe that half a century from now, the average stock will be priced like technology stocks at the height of the Internet bubble — and that stock prices will nonetheless keep on rising.”

How did Krugman figure that out? The Princeton economics professor — who some people think could someday win the Nobel Prize — had to ask Dean Baker to “help me out with that calculation (there are some technical details I won’t get into).” Indeed, Krugman probably needed the help — he never has had a very firm grasp of stock market valuation. During that “height of the Internet bubble,” Krugman wrote in his Times column that “I'm not sure that the current value of the Nasdaq is justified, but I’m not sure that it isn’t.”

Hmmm. That wasn’t exactly the unambiguous call to sell techstocks that Jeremy Siegel issued at the height of the bubble, when he wrote a piece titled “Big-Cap Tech Stocks Are a Sucker Bet.” No, as new ex officio Krugman Truth Squad member James Neel put it in an e-mail, “Krugman was for the bubble valuation of Nasdaq before he was against it.”

Today, once again, Krugman wants it both ways. He’s sure that stocks will perform poorly in the future, but he says, “if the economy grows fast enough to generate a rate of return that makes privatization work, it will also yield a bonanza of payroll tax revenue that will keep the current system sound for generations to come.” But that’s simply not true.

Kent Smetters, the Wharton professor who has pioneered the analysis of Social Security’s solvency beyond the deceptively arbitrary 75-year timeframe most often cited, told me that faster economic growth amounts to “very little over the long term.” Krugman’s analysis — which focuses on the higher taxes collected in the near term — ignores the reality that correspondingly “higher benefits come outside the 75-year window.” So you collect more now, but you just pay it out later. That’s largely because a 1977 law, passed by a Democratic Congress and signed by Democratic President Jimmy Carter, indexed Social Security benefits to economy-wide wage growth.

I’d conclude by turning Krugman’s challenge back on him: “Ladies and gentlemen, would you care to explain your position?” But I can’t — I’ve been writing the Krugman Truth Squad column long enough to know that he’s no gentleman.

— Donald Luskin is chief investment officer of Trend Macrolytics LLC, an independent economics and investment-research firm. He welcomes your visit to his blog and your comments at don@trendmacro.com.>>>>

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mwoodwalk
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Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 9:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, and here's another good column from the Krugman Truth Squad. Really, I could post them all.

<<<<<January 31, 2005, 10:19 a.m.
Big Black Lies
Krugman is warped on the matter of Social Security reform and African Americans.

Look up the word “vile” in the dictionary and you will find an appropriate description of Paul Krugman’s New York Times column from last Friday.

In the column, America’s most dangerous liberal pundit throws a gutter accusation of “bigotry” at President Bush — yes, the man who just appointed his female African American national security advisor as the successor to his African American secretary of State.

Why, in Krugman’s mind, is Bush a bigot? Because the president is seeking to reform Social Security with personal accounts — which, by the way, is the same reform being argued for by Harold Ford, the African American Democratic congressman from Tennessee. In Ford’s words, the existing system “provides a measure of security for retirees, but it cannot be passed on to provide financial security for their children and grandchildren. The key to retirement security and upward social mobility is wealth creation.”

How does wanting the same thing that Rep. Ford wants make President Bush a bigot? Be patient — you’ll see.

Krugman quotes Bush saying that “African-American males die sooner than other males do, which means the system is inherently unfair to a certain group of people.” Krugman says Bush made this statement “[t]his week, in a closed meeting with African-Americans.” Krugman is wrong: Bush made this statement on January 11 in an open meeting with Americans of all races. And Bush is right — according to the National Center for Health Statistics, at age 65 the median African American male lives 14.6 more years, compared with 16.6 more years for whites. That means African Americans have 2 fewer years to collect their Social Security benefits than whites do, even though they pay the same amount of taxes during their working lives.

Personal accounts will make Social Security more fair for African Americans because, at death, the value in those accounts will be allowed to be passed on to loved ones — not just plowed back into the system, as is the case today. But Krugman says Bush is bigoted for wanting to redress that injustice. In Krugman’s mind, Bush is treating “premature black deaths not as a tragedy we must end but as just another way to push [his] ideological agenda.”

It must have been irresistible for Krugman to plagiarize the crude race-card gotcha that was conceived almost three weeks ago by the Democratic National Committee and play it on the op-ed pages of America’s supposed “newspaper of record.” It certainly must have been easier than coming up with original material. But accusations of bigotry are dangerous weapons — and this specific accusation is a sword that cuts both ways.

Krugman’s position is extremely confused. He is taking the position that Social Security reforms that make the system fairer for African Americans must be opposed because President Bush hasn’t waved his magic wand and bestowed upon African Americans the same statistical life expectancy as whites. Even if such a thing were in Bush’s power and Bush refused to do it — and even if his refusal to do so was based on bigotry — it is still indefensible to oppose reforming the unfairness in the current Social Security system.

It is Krugman — not Bush — who diminishes the importance of the shorter life expectancy of African Americans. Krugman waves it away, almost casually, saying that 14.6 years of life expectancy at 65 for African American males is “not that far short of the 16.6-year figure for white men.” Those 2 fewer years of life may not mean much to Krugman, but I’ll bet they sure do to African American men and their families. As Krugman Truth Squad member Sylvain Galineau quipped on my blog, perhaps the diminutive pundit would “get it if we put the debate in terms he understands; so let’s assume that Social Security benefits are based on height.”

Truth Squad member Matthew Schiros, on his Radio Free Roider blog, finds this Krugman position equally disturbing: Krugman argues that Social Security

provides more benefits, as a percentage of earnings, to low-income workers than to high-income workers. Since African-Americans are paid much less, on average, than whites, this works to their advantage.

Finally, Social Security isn’t just a retirement program; it’s also a disability insurance program. And blacks are much more likely than whites to receive disability benefits.

In other words, in Krugman’s mind, African Americans may die earlier than whites, but they make up for it by being poor and disabled. This is not quite a burning cross on the front lawn, but it’s not exactly an enlightened philosophy of racial justice, either.

Krugman attempts to support his insupportable positions with his patented abuse of statistics. Krugman writes, “Blacks’ low life expectancy is largely due to high death rates in childhood and young adulthood” — the point being that during their working lives and retirements their life expectancies are much like those of whites. But Krugman Truth Squad member Jim Glass points out on his Scrivener.net blog that this is a flat-out lie. According to the National Center for Health Statistics,

We find that black males right in the middle of a working life, age 40, have a 30% chance of dying by age 65. (The corresponding chance for white males is 17%.) ... Black males alive at age 5 have only a 3% chance of dying within the next 25 years of their childhood and young adulthood, by age 30. (For white males the figure is 1.9%.)

So their death rate during their past-age 40 working years is 10 times higher than “the high death rates in childhood and young adulthood” Krugman ascribes to them. And the risk that a black male age 40 will die before reaching the Social Security retirement age of 65 — after paying most of working life payroll taxes, but still too young to recover any of them — is 10 times higher than the risk that one will die as a child or young adult age 5 to 30. (And 77% higher than the risk that a white male age 40 will die by age 65.)

(For even more data on the matter of African Americans and Social Security, the Heritage Foundation has prepared a detailed factual rebuttal to Krugman’s column. I highly recommend it for those who want to understand the issue in depth.)

But let’s set all the statistics aside and get back to the real issue here — the issue that Rep. Ford focused on: “The key to retirement security and upward social mobility is wealth creation.” That, indeed, is the core philosophy underlying President Bush’s initiative to reform Social Security with personal accounts — it’s the heart of his vision of an “ownership society.” To Krugman, however, that vision is nothing. As he wrote in a Times column last year, “I thought all Americans have a vital stake in the nation’s future, regardless of how much property they own.”

Spoken like a white professor at an Ivy League college, a columnist for the New York Times, a best-selling author, and a man who lives in a $3 million, 6,000-square-foot home in Princeton with a four-car garage, music room, library, and greenhouse.

George Bush is no bigot. He just wants African Americans to have a shot at someday having that kind of “vital stake in the nation’s future.” Why is it that Paul Krugman doesn’t?

— Donald Luskin is chief investment officer of Trend Macrolytics LLC, an independent economics and investment-research firm. He welcomes your visit to his blog and your comments at don@trendmacro.com.>>>>>









http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_luskin/kts200501311019.asp


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mwoodwalk
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Username: Mwoodwalk

Post Number: 307
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 9:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just can't help myself:

<<<<December 21, 2004, 8:58 a.m.
No ‘Fool’s Paradise’
Krugman lies about personal accounts for Social Security.

If the liberal establishment is so sure that reforming Social Security with personal accounts is such a terrible idea, then why do they have to lie about it?

Consider Paul Krugman’s latest New York Times column. It’s designed to scare his readers into believing that “privatization,” as he calls it, “dissipates a large fraction of workers’ contributions on fees to investment companies” and “leaves many retirees in poverty.” To prove this, he offers a smorgasbord of deceptions, errors, distortions, and misquotations about the way reform with personal accounts has failed — or so he claims — in other countries.

Krugman’s primary target is Chile — which became in 1981 the first country to reform its national pension system with personal accounts. Krugman says,

More than 99 percent of Social Security’s revenues go toward benefits, and less than 1 percent for overhead. In Chile’s system, management fees are around 20 times as high.

First, Krugman is in error to call the charges “management fees.” About a third of the fees are not management fees at all, but rather premiums for life and disability insurance coverage that are an integral benefit of Chile’s system.

Second, fees should be seen in terms of assets under management — not as a fraction of revenues. According to Chilean economist Salvador Valdes-Prieto, fees in Chile as a fraction of assets under management are about sixty-five one-hundredths of 1 percent — lower than the average mutual fund fee in the United States.

Third, it’s laughable for a professional economist like Krugman to suggest that fees charged by the tiny, over-regulated Chilean financial services industry would in any way represent the best we can do in the United States. Here, large, highly developed, competitive, and relatively unregulated markets create enormous economies of scale.

Most Social Security reform proposals advocate the use of ultra-low-cost index funds, of the type employed by the Thrift Savings Plan — the 401(k) plan for federal employees. Krugman, however, has a lie all ready to counter that reality. He says,

It’s true that costs will be low if investments are restricted to low-overhead index funds — that is, if government officials, not individuals, make the investment decisions … And if there are rules restricting workers to low-expense investments, investment industry lobbyists will try to get those rules overturned.

I know from personal experience that every word of this is a lie. I used to be an executive of Barclays Global Investors, the firm that has run all the index funds for the Thrift Savings Plan since the program was first started in the 1980s. First, I can tell you that no government officials made any investment decisions whatsoever. My company ran the funds — and every individual federal employee decided for himself or herself which of the funds to invest in.

I can also assure you there was no lobbying to raise fees — we didn’t have time to lobby. Our contract came up for re-bid every 2 years, so we were kept plenty busy competing with other index-fund managers to offer the Thrift Savings Plan suicidally low management fees. In the last bidding cycle while I was still at Barclays, we beat our major competitor — State Street Global Advisors — by committing to manage an S&P 500 index fund for a fee of 4.5 one-thousandths of 1 percent per year. To put that in perspective, the Vanguard Index 500 fund, renowned for its low fees, charges 18 one-hundredths of 1 percent — which is 40 times more than we charged the federal government.

Here’s another Krugman lie about the record of reform in Chile. He says,

as a Federal Reserve study puts it, the Chilean government must ‘provide subsidies for workers failing to accumulate enough capital to provide a minimum pension.’ In other words, privatization would have condemned many retirees to dire poverty, and the government stepped back in to save them.

Krugman makes it sound as though the Chilean system has failed, and the government had to bail it out. In fact, a safety net for the neediest workers was an intentional feature of Chile’s reform from day one. So nobody “stepped back in” — they were always “in.” And the use of the safety net is actually minimal. According to Senate testimony by Jacobo Rodríguez of the International Center for Pension Reform,

As of March 2002, the government had supplemented 33,029 pensions, including 11,759 old-age pensions, out of over 400,000 pensions. ... the cost to the government of supplementing these pensions has been about $33 million.

In fact, the Chilean safety net only applies to workers with 20 or more years of participation in the system. Considering that the system is only 23 years old this year, there just aren’t that many workers who are even eligible. And considering that the reformed system provides adequate benefits to retired workers based on only a 4 percent real return from invested assets — and that the real return since inception has been about 10 percent — we’re not going to find a lot of “dire poverty.”

So what about that “Federal Reserve study”? Turns out there’s no such thing. There’s only a 2003 symposium paper by Stephen Kay, a researcher at the Atlanta Fed, whom a source close to the situation described to me as “a young leftie economist who is an ideologue against private systems.” Kay’s paper states right on the cover that “The ideas expressed in this paper are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta or the Federal Reserve System.” It’s deceptive of Krugman to suggest that the paper has the imprimatur of the Federal Reserve System.

And Krugman elided the first half of the sentence he quoted from the paper, which makes it clear that Kay is asserting only that government supplements have “elevated in part” Chile’s long-term fiscal costs of reform.

Turning to the other half of the globe, Krugman tries the same trick with the British equivalent of Social Security. He writes that Britain’s

Pensions Commission warns that those who think Mrs. Thatcher’s privatization solved the pension problem are living in a ‘fool’s paradise.’ A lot of additional government spending will be required to avoid the return of widespread poverty among the elderly — a problem that Britain, like the U.S., thought it had solved.

This is a flat-out lie. The report of Britain’s Pension Commission “warns” of nothing of the sort. The expression “fool’s paradise” is in reference to “irrational equity markets and delayed appreciation of life expectancy increases” that allowed many British corporate pension plans to “avoid necessary adjustments until the late 1990s.” It has nothing to do with “Mrs. Thatcher’s privatization” — and it’s hardly a “warning,” considering that it describes “necessary adjustments” as having been made during the previous decade.

So what is Krugman’s solution to rescuing Social Security — to keep government from having to “step back in” like Chile’s supposedly did to cure “dire poverty” — and to truly solve a problem that Britain supposedly only “thought it had solved”? Raise taxes, of course. In a Times column two weeks ago Krugman recommended raising taxes by half a percent of GDP, in order to shore up Social Security “into the 22nd century, with no change in benefits.”

Krugman makes the tax increase sound small by expressing it as a percentage of GDP. But in language that working people can understand, his recommendation is the same thing as raising the Social Security taxes that workers pay by about 25 percent, according to a June 2004 Congressional Budget Office report.

And he never mentions that raising taxes is a fix that we’ve tried before, right here in the U. S. of A. That fix failed. Because the Social Security system is fundamentally insolvent over the long term, and gets worse every year, raising taxes only helps for a short time. Remember, the system was on the brink in the early 1980s, and we shored it up by raising taxes. Now it’s on the brink again — and if we shore it up by raising taxes, we’ll just be back on the brink again in another 20 years. Unless we raise taxes again, and again, and again.

And that’s no “fool’s paradise.” That’s hell on earth.

— Donald Luskin is chief investment officer of Trend Macrolytics LLC, an independent economics and investment-research firm. He welcomes your comments at don@trendmacro.com.>>>>









http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_luskin/kts200412210858.asp
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sbenois
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Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 9:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But I thought that if something is in the Times it must be true!

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J. Crohn
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Posted on Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 9:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You know, I quit reading Paul Krugman when he started writing for the NYT and became a political activist first and an economist fifth.

Brad DeLong is still pretty straightforward and non-partisan, although also a political liberal, of course.

His take on SS reform:

January 05, 2005
The Social Security Party Line: Talking Points

I figure I might as well lay down what the party line is on Social Security:

Social Security Talking Points

Social Security's Troubles Are Smaller than Our Other Fiscal Problems

* The projected long-run Social Security Trust Fund deficit ranks no higher than fourth in urgency and in size on our list of fiscal problems.

* Bigger fiscal problems include:
o The current $600 billion a year General Fund deficit.
o The long-run problems of finding financing for and controlling the growth of rapidly-rising Medicare and Medicaid spending.
o The need to make sure that the General Fund has the resources to meet its commitments without undue strain after 2020--when it will no longer be able to borrow from the Social Security Trust Fund.


* If our current General Fund deficit is like having an impaired driver who has just crashed us into a tree, and if the Medicare-Medicaid problems are like a melted transmission, and if the post-2020 General Fund is like having no brake pads left, then our long-run Social Security deficit is like a slow tire leak.

* If our Social Security problems are neither extraordinarily urgent nor extraordinarily large, why is the Bush administration so focused on them?
o Possibly because of incompetence: George W. Bush and his inner circle simply do not understand the magnitude and importance of the federal government's other fiscal problem.
o Possibly because of ideology: it is for some reason important to undermine the successes of FDR's New Deal.
o Possibly because of capture: just as the principal aim of the 2003 Medicare Drug Benefit bill as it was written was to boost pharmaceutical company profits, so when the Bush Social Security proposal emerges we will see that its principal aim is to boost Wall Street profits.
o Which of these is really the most important reason? I don't know. Your guess is as good as mine. Certainly the public rationales the Bush administration has offered for the "reform" program it has not announced are extremely thin.


What Should Be Done to Fix the Social Security System?

* Minor adjustments--the kinds of things that you do to fix a slow leak in a tire:
o Pump in more air--raise Social Security taxes a bit (perhaps by applying the FICA tax to all earned income, rather than exempting income over $90,000 a year from the tax).
o Patch the leak--raise the retirement age as life expectancy increases.


* Make these minor adjustments automatic and ongoing:
o We will have good and bad news in the future, and will be making further adjustments--both up and down.
o This Congress and George W. Bush have demonstrated an inability to make economic policy in the national interest--whether it's the train wreck of their budget deficits, the sinkhole of their corporate tax bill, the car crash of their steel tariff, or the current vastly exaggerated cries of "crisis, crisis."
o It's time [to] do with Social Security policy what Congress long ago did with monetary policy: adopt the Federal Reserve model.
o Seven Governors of the Social Security Trust Board appointed for fourteen-year terms with the advice and consent of the Senate.
o They then elect a Chair.
o Their responsibility is to adjust the retirement age (and, within narrow limits, the payroll tax rate) in order to keep the Social Security System solvent in expectation.


What About Private Accounts?

* Private accounts are a good idea--most Americans save too little, and, remember, Social Security is supposed to be a solid, secure base of retirement income which people can rely on no matter what.

* Social Security was never intended to be all of anyone's retirement income: everyone was supposed to have private pensions and personal savings as well.

* But private accounts funded by cutting Social Security contributions are a bad idea:
o Robbing Peter to pay Paul is in general not a good idea.
o Reducing the guaranteed Social Security income floor will turn out to be extremely painful for those who are on the downside of the risks inevitably borne by private accounts.
o The government-funded part of the retirement-income system as a whole needs more resources, not a shell game.


* A good system of private accounts would be very different than the game of three-card-monte the Bush administration wants us to play.

* Here is a good system of private accounts:
o Automatically--without your having to opt in--half of your tax refund up to $2,000 a year is invested in your private account in the federal government's low-overhead Thrift Savings Plan.
o If half your refund is less than $2,000, you can top off your investment in the TSP.
o If you wish, you can file a form and withdraw your this-year's contribution from the TSP and get it in cash now.
o Investments in the TSP accumulate tax-free.
o You can't get your TSP investments out until retirement--but your creditors can't get at it either.
o For low-income and medium-income taxpayers, your contributions to the TSP are supplemented by the federal government, which levies a surtax on incomes above $200,000 a year to finance the supplements.


* A good system of private Social Security accounts is automatic; administratively simple; administratively low-cost; well-diversified; and substantial.

"What party?" you ask. Ah, that *is* an interesting question...
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Southerner
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Username: Southerner

Post Number: 80
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 12:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one tired of all the NY Times links, as if because it's in the Times it must be correct. I was begining to think that a bunch of you must work there.
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wharfrat
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Username: Wharfrat

Post Number: 1552
Registered: 6-2001
Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 5:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gambling With Your Retirement
By PAUL KRUGMAN

A few weeks ago I tried to explain the logic of Bush-style Social Security privatization: it is, in effect, as if your financial adviser told you that you wouldn't have enough money when you retire - but you shouldn't save more. Instead, you should borrow a lot of money, buy stocks and hope for capital gains.

Before President Bush's big speech, a background briefing by a "senior administration official" made it clear that the plan calls for exactly the "borrow, speculate and hope" strategy I described - not just for the system as a whole, but for each individual.

Here's the money quote: "In return for the opportunity to get the benefits from the personal account, the person forgoes a certain amount of benefits from the traditional system. Now, the way that election is structured, the person comes out ahead if their personal account exceeds a 3 percent rate of return" - after inflation - "which is the rate of return that the trust fund bonds receive. So, basically, the net effect on an individual's benefits would be zero if his personal account earned a 3 percent rate of return."

Translation: If you put part of your payroll taxes into a personal account, your future benefits will be reduced by an amount equivalent to the amount you would have had to repay if you had borrowed the money at a real interest rate of 3 percent.

Peter Orszag of the Brookings Institution got it exactly right: "It's not a nest egg. It's a loan."

For years, privatizers - including Mr. Bush - have claimed that people would do better with private accounts than with traditional Social Security even if they played it safe and invested in U.S. government bonds (which yield 3 percent after inflation).

But the official at the briefing made it clear that his boss was fibbing: if you invested your private account in government bonds, you would face benefit cuts equal in value to your investment, so you would be no better off than under the current system.

The only way to get ahead would be to invest in risky assets like stocks, and hope for higher yields. But if the investment went wrong and you earned less than 3 percent after inflation, your benefit cuts would leave you poorer than if you had never opened that private account.

So people are expected to take a loan from the government and use it to buy stocks, and if that turns out to have been a mistake - well, too bad.

Experts usually tell people to plan for their retirement by investing in a mix of stocks and bonds. They disapprove strongly of speculation on margin: borrowing to buy stocks. Yet Mr. Bush wants tens of millions of Americans to do exactly that.

Meanwhile, what does any of this have to do with the ostensible purpose of the whole thing: saving Social Security?

Here's the senior official again: "In a long-term sense, the personal accounts would have a net neutral effect on the fiscal situation of Social Security." The government would have to borrow huge sums up front to create the personal accounts - $4.5 trillion in the first two decades - but it would supposedly make up for all that borrowing with offsetting cuts in account holders' benefits many decades later.

Color me skeptical: will retirees with private accounts that performed badly really be forced to repay their loans in full? Even if they are, private accounts will at best have a "net neutral effect" - that is, they will do nothing to improve Social Security's finances. Mr. Bush says the system faces a crisis; what does he propose to do about it?

The answer, presumably, is that his plan will also involve major benefit cuts over and above those associated with private accounts. And it's true that you can improve Social Security's finances with privatization, as long as you also slash benefits - just as you can kill a flock of sheep with witchcraft, provided you also feed them arsenic. (Thanks, M. Voltaire.)

Do you believe that we should replace America's most successful government program with a system in which workers engage in speculation that no financial adviser would recommend? Do you believe that we should do this even though it will do nothing to improve the program's finances? If so, George Bush has a deal for you.

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company
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Paul Surovell
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Post Number: 228
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Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 5:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Moodwalk:

I've only got time now to look at the first "Truth Squad" article you posted. There is no allegation of lying by Krugman here. You still haven't provided any evidence of your allegation that Krugman is a "liar."

But it's instructive to note that your "Truth Squad" author evades Krugman's main point.

The proposal to privatize Social Security is based on the SS Administration's forecast that in 2042 the Trust Fund's Treasury bonds will be gone and that Social Security payroll taxes will cover only 70% of benefits.

But this forecast, as the article points out, is based on the assumption that the economy will grow only 1.9% annually (a conservative assumption since historically we've grown 3.4%).

Krugman points out that privatization proponents assume an overall annual rate of return on stocks of 6.5%. But in order to achieve this, the economy will have to grow faster than 1.9%.

But if the SS Administration forecast model uses an economic growth factor of more than 1.9% the model would forecast increased payroll tax revenues sufficient to pay 100% Social Security benefits far beyond 2042.

This would eliminate the entire pretext for the privatization proposal.

Krugman has challenged privatization proponents to state the economic growth rate they are factoring into their forecasts and none have responded, including the author of your "Truth Squad" article.

They are caught in the dishonesty of their position. If they use a rate 1.9% or lower they cannot justify their predicted 6.5% rate of return on stocks. If they concede a rate higher than 1.9% there will be no Social Security shortfall and the basis for the privatization proposal dissolves altogether.
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Paul Surovell
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Post Number: 229
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Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 6:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sbenois,

I'm not aware of the AMT controversy. Are you saying that the Bush is lying about his tax cut?

Yes, I realize the suggestion to rescind 1/4 of the tax cut for the wealthy to create a SS fund involves thinking "outside the box." Are we allowed to do that?

Regarding benefits, if the cap is lifted, I would assume there would be additional benefits.

I take exception to your use of the term "insidious" to describe my suggestions that would have the "rich" bear the financial burden of balancing Social Security.

I think my suggestions are quite explicit and straightforward.
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Bobkat
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Username: Bobk

Post Number: 7488
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Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 6:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A couple of points

1. Whether it be called a management fee or a disability and life insurance charge the fee is going to cut down on how much goes into investments for retirement. Without including life and disability insurance in the plan, the proposed system will not work.

2. Given that Bush was not willing to negotiate with the drug industry with Medicare, it is doubtful that he will negotiate hard with the financial services industry to keep management and insurance fees low. The cynical among us can view the whole privatization plan as a bone thrown to major GOP contributors.

3. The Administration admits the cost of Bush's plan at $1.2trillion in the first ten years. Given the Bush adminstration's penchant for fuzzy math the actual cost may be much higher and will probably go on the national credit card.

4. Management fees for the Federal employees savings plans are low. However, they are determined by bid, something that Bush probably will not allow. Also the level of service may be different. Quite possibly the Federal government is footing the cost of providing statements, etc.

For the record I support the concept of private accounts. In an ideal world the increased returns on such should allow a reduction in the SS benefits to atleast an index based on the CPI. However, as announced the current plan does little other than win political capital for Bush among younger workers, Wall Street and the insurance industry by transfering costs to the deficiet.

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Dave
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Username: Dave

Post Number: 5159
Registered: 4-1998


Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 8:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Bill Gross, manager of the world's largest bond fund, is criticizing President Bush's plan to privatize part of Social Security.

Gross, managing director at Pimco, called the argument about the solvency of Social Security "silly" and said it was an example of the president not focusing on more important issues, such as the budget deficit.

The president's argument for individual Social Security accounts is meant "to promote an agenda that has little to do with seniors and more to do with Bush, his ownership society, and ultimately his domestic legacy alongside the likes of Ronald Reagan and FDR," Gross wrote in comments posted on Pimco's Web site.

"Without a blockbuster of a program in his second term it is unlikely that Bush can go very far in the history books on the back of a paltry 3 or 4 percentage point tax cut for the rich," Gross wrote.

"Presto!" he continued. "We now have partial privatization of Social Security heading the agenda upon which the president intends to spend his well-advertised political capital."

But while the president says that will help fix Social Security, "the problem has more to do with demographics than the lack of ownership," Gross wrote.

Gross argued that it will take more than individual Social Security accounts to correct a projected shortfall and suggested the government should focus on cutting the budget deficit instead.

"Production can only come from employed workers and so the basic solution is to produce more workers, either through immigration or postponed retirement for the existing work force," he wrote.

"By reducing budget deficits now, and especially that portion of the deficit owed to foreign governments, we would be able to keep more of our domestic production within our borders and therefore available to senior citizens."


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mwoodwalk
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Username: Mwoodwalk

Post Number: 308
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 10:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well Dave, if Gross says Bush's plan is silly, then it must be so. After all, there aren't any people on Wall Street with political axes to grind, right? Soros and Rubin are partisan neutrals, correct?

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Nohero
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Username: Nohero

Post Number: 4311
Registered: 10-1999


Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 10:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Republican Mayor Bloomberg (who has a little financial know-how) also isn't keen on the President's plan.
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Dr. Winston O'Boogie
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Username: Casey

Post Number: 1031
Registered: 8-2003


Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 10:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bush and his supporters have brilliantly insulated themselves from all criticism. Any and all criticism of W is to be dismissed because of "bias." And how do you know someone is biased? Because they criticized, of course. And the only unbiased observers are the ones who never criticize Bush. It's wonderful circular logic that would have made Joseph Heller proud.

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mwoodwalk
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Username: Mwoodwalk

Post Number: 309
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 10:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Surovell, your right, the first Truth Squad article is calling out Krugman on his tendency to make misleading and logically inconsistent arguments. Try the other two for more express examples of lying.

As for your supposed counterargument, reread that first Truth Squad article. It notes, in pertinent part that:

<<<<Today, once again, Krugman wants it both ways. He’s sure that stocks will perform poorly in the future, but he says, “if the economy grows fast enough to generate a rate of return that makes privatization work, it will also yield a bonanza of payroll tax revenue that will keep the current system sound for generations to come.” But that’s simply not true.

Kent Smetters, the Wharton professor who has pioneered the analysis of Social Security’s solvency beyond the deceptively arbitrary 75-year timeframe most often cited, told me that faster economic growth amounts to “very little over the long term.” Krugman’s analysis — which focuses on the higher taxes collected in the near term — ignores the reality that correspondingly “higher benefits come outside the 75-year window.” So you collect more now, but you just pay it out later. That’s largely because a 1977 law, passed by a Democratic Congress and signed by Democratic President Jimmy Carter, indexed Social Security benefits to economy-wide wage growth.>>>>


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Robert Livingston
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Username: Rob_livingston

Post Number: 823
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 10:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doc: If you haven't already, check out The Propaganda President on Slate.
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Paul Surovell
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Username: Paulsurovell

Post Number: 230
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 12:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Moodwalk,

Your "Truth Squad" article doesn't address Krugman's argument, which is that the privatization proponents are unwilling to reveal what rate of economic growth they have assumed in their forecast that the rate of return on stocks will be 6.5% over the long term.

Because, as Krugman suggests, no self-respecting economist would forecast a long-term 6.5% real rate of return on stocks if they believed the economy would grow an average of 1.9% annually.

And if the assumed rate of economic growth is higher than 1.9% then the SS Administration model needs to be adjusted accordingly, and the result will be no shortfall for the rest of the century.

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sbenois
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Username: Sbenois

Post Number: 13108
Registered: 10-2001


Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 7:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not aware of the AMT controversy. Are you saying that the Bush is lying about his tax cut?

I think the word "lying" is used far too easily by you. If you don't know about the AMT, then I'd suggest that you ought to look into it very deeply before you make it sound like "the rich" got huge breaks in the tax cut. In some states with low property taxes, yes, in others, a clear no.

Yes, I realize the suggestion to rescind 1/4 of the tax cut for the wealthy to create a SS fund involves thinking "outside the box." Are we allowed to do that?

Yes, you're allowed to do that. But what you've done here is clearly try to reallocate wealth through SS. That is a big no-no. It is not what SS was intended to do, nor is it in keeping with the ideals of FDR ("self-funding").


Regarding benefits, if the cap is lifted, I would assume there would be additional benefits.

This is a positive sign on your part - as long as the benefits are doled out in the same proportion (extrapolatng of the forumla) as today.

I take exception to your use of the term "insidious" to describe my suggestions that would have the "rich" bear the financial burden of balancing Social Security.

I think my suggestions are quite explicit and straightforward.


I think you could have been far more explicit in describing that a byproduct of your ideas is a reallocation of the burden in the form of a progressive tax.


P.S. Although we hardly agree on much politically, let me take this opportnity to congratulate you for Tuesday night's award. I never doubt your passion, intelligence, or inherent goodness.
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Mustt_mustt
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Username: Mustt_mustt

Post Number: 257
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 9:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's very gracious of you, Sbenois. And congrats to Paul for the award. More power to people like him!
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mwoodwalk
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Username: Mwoodwalk

Post Number: 310
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 9:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What award?
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cjc
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Username: Cjc

Post Number: 3091
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Friday, February 4, 2005 - 10:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you allow the FICA taxes to be applied to a larger ceiling of income (as Reagan agreed to in that punt they did in 1983), you are putting Social Security even more into the column of welfare. You go from a pay-as-you-go system into a wealth transfer, especially if you tack on means testing to it. Same for allowing general revenues to go into the Social Security non-lock box.

I'd get really mad about paying for the well-being and lack of responsibility of others if I wasn't already used to it.
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Paul Surovell
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Post Number: 231
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Saturday, February 5, 2005 - 3:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sbenois,

Thank you for the kind words. The feeling is mutual.

When I accepted the Township Proclamation (which expresses thanks for my efforts in the community for seeking peaceful solutions to international conflicts), I stated the following, which applies to this board as well as to the community at large:

"But -- and perhaps most important -- I also want to recognize those members of our community who share our commitment to peace, but who disagree with South Mountain Peace Action and our positions. Because what makes Maplewood truly wonderful and truly remarkable, is the absolute respect we show each other even when we disagree. A respect which is founded on our mutual reverence for democracy.

"And so I want to stress that the honor I'm receiving tonight is about democracy as much as it is about peace."

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Paul Surovell
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Post Number: 232
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Posted on Saturday, February 5, 2005 - 4:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Art:

At least one advocate of Personal Savings Accounts -- The Institute for SocioEconomic Studies (www.socioeconomic.org) -- is calling for Social Security reform that would "do away with the Social Security payroll deduction and, instead, fund Social Security from general revenues raised by the Smart Tax"

Sbenois and Art:

In fact, Social Security has always been an income redistribution system.

Although the payroll tax structure is regressive in the sense that income above $88,000 is exempted from the 6.2% payroll tax, this is offset by the fact that the employers' matching tax of 6.2% is a cost borne by capital, when paid by corporations, and by higher-income Americans, when paid by small businesses.

Additionally, the benefit formula itself is weighted to provide lower-income earners with a benefit that is a higher percentage of their income than higher-income earners.

The formula in 2003 was as follows:

(from the AARP website)

The Benefit Calculation

A worker's Social Security benefits—either retirement or disability—are based upon his/her time and earnings in Social Security-covered employment and the age at which s/he leaves the labor force.

The number on which most initial Social Security disability, survivors, and retirement benefits are based is called the Primary Insurance Amount (PIA). It is reached through a two-step calculation: 1) the Average Indexed Monthly Earnings calculation, and 2) application of the PIA formula rates.

Average Indexed Monthly Earnings

First, a worker's 35 highest-earning years are indexed to wage growth, up to the year the worker turns age 60. These wage-indexed annual earnings are then averaged (divided by 35 years), and divided by 12 months, to get a monthly amount.

The result is called the Average Indexed Monthly Earnings (AIME). The AIME expresses a worker's lifetime earnings in terms of today's wage levels.

Primary Insurance Amount

Second, the worker's Primary Insurance Amount (PIA) is calculated by applying three separate rates to portions of the AIME.

For those who became eligible in 2003, benefits were based on the following formula:

90 percent of the first $606 of AIME, plus
32 percent of AIME over $606 through $3,653, plus
15 percent of AIME above $3,653.

Thus, if a worker had an AIME of $3,750, the PIA in 2003 would be:

90% of first $606 $545
32% of next $607 through $3,653 975
15% over $3,653 15

The PIA for this worker is: $1,535

The Weighted Formula

By applying the 90 percent, 32 percent, and 15 percent rates or "weights" to the AIME, the benefit formula ensures that low-wage workers will receive proportionately more from their Social Security contributions than average- or high-wage earners.

The weighting reflects the assumption that workers with higher earnings have a greater ability to protect themselves from financial risk—there is a higher probability they have private pension income and accumulated savings—than do low- and moderate-income workers who have less opportunity to save and invest.

http://research.aarp.org/econ/fs59r_ssbenefit.html#THIRD

Finally, I would argue that Social Security provides an income-redistribution effect through its provision of Disability and Survivors' Insurance, because (my assumptions) lower-income workers are more likely to become disabled and die before retirement.



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ajc
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Username: Ajc

Post Number: 3461
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Saturday, February 5, 2005 - 8:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Paul,

Thank you for including me in your comments, but in case you haven’t noticed, I’ve pretty much stayed out of this conversation about social security. Although I clearly recognize there’s a problem looming in the future, I personally don’t have a solution to resolve it. Listen, I suspect your suggestions are as good as any to put on the table.

IMHO, if and when our representatives in congress, on both sides of the isle, decide to stop playing politics and give up their childlike rhetoric, then maybe they’ll be able to find a solution to the problem everyone can live with.
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tjohn
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Username: Tjohn

Post Number: 2906
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Saturday, February 5, 2005 - 9:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cjc,

Even if Social Security has elements of wealth transfer built into it, it is not the same as welfare. There are a lot of people who work hard all of their lives but cannot save enough to retire on - the men who pick up our garbage, for example. It seems not only just, but wise to have a system where the deal is that if you work hard all of your life, you can count on a decent retirement. As a general principle, a just society should say that if you work hard, we'll take care of you.
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Strawberry
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Username: Strawberry

Post Number: 4462
Registered: 10-2001


Posted on Saturday, February 5, 2005 - 10:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It seems not only just, but wise to have a system where the deal is that if you work hard all of your life, you can count on a decent retirement

No duh...

The problem of course is that you can't count on it anymore. In other words, it's broken.
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Paul Surovell
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Post Number: 233
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Posted on Saturday, February 5, 2005 - 10:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Art,

My deepest apologies.

My reply should have been directed to "cjc" who I momentarily confused with "ajc."

Paul



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tjohn
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Username: Tjohn

Post Number: 2907
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Saturday, February 5, 2005 - 10:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The problem with Social Security and the cause of many other problems is that politicians find it easier to run the government like a giant Ponzi scheme rather than pay as you go. The assumption is that we will always have enough economic growth so that the various unfunded government obligations can be paid in tomorrows dollars without breaking our children's financial backs. Sooner or later, all Ponzi schemes come crashing down.
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ajc
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Username: Ajc

Post Number: 3462
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Saturday, February 5, 2005 - 11:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

... no problem Paul, it's nice to know that you were thinking about me...

"And so I want to stress that the honor I'm receiving tonight is about democracy as much as it is about peace."

I'll also congratulate you for anything to do with peace, but what did I miss? Sorry, I just got back last night from the Bahamas and I'm not aware of what you were honored for last Tuesday night...
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Paul Surovell
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Post Number: 234
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 9:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Art,

On Tuesday February 1st the Maplewood Township Committee issued a Proclamation which cited my efforts in the community on behalf of peaceful solutions to international conflicts and concluded with the following language:


quote:

I Fred R. Profeta Jr., Mayor of the Township of Maplewood, on behalf of the Township Committee, do hereby recognize

PAUL SUROVELL

with thanks for his efforts in effectuating peaceful solutions, in bringing positive community change, and in anticipation of his future efforts and dedication to the Township of Maplewood.




I then delivered the following statement:


quote:

I cannot tell you how much it means to me, and to our organization, to be recognized in this great hall by this body, which is the primary link, the fundamental connection between the citizenry and our democracy.

I proudly accept this award on behalf of the hundreds of members of our community who have dedicated their time and energy to humankind's most cherished goal -- the goal of peace.

I want to mention several of the many supporters of South Mountain Peace Action who have made my efforts possible. This list is too long, so I can only mention a few -- Betty Duffey, Mary Gallagher, Dan O'Flaherty, Theo Buklad, Nathalie Bailey, Cathy Casriel, Andrew Gyory and my wife, Judi Kramer. And I want to mention Bill Hildebrand who will be 90 in a week, and the late beloved Durward Branigan who gave so much for so many years. And most of all, I want to mention 12-year-old Jackson Roberts, whose elegant sign and message -- Be About Peace -- graces the lawns of so many homes in our community.

But -- and perhaps most important -- I also want to recognize those members of our community who share our commitment to peace, but who disagree with South Mountain Peace Action and our positions. Because what makes Maplewood truly wonderful and truly remarkable, is the absolute respect we show each other even when we disagree. A respect which is founded on our mutual reverence for democracy.

And so I want to stress that the honor I'm receiving tonight is about democracy as much as it is about peace.

Thank you very much for this award.








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ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc

Post Number: 3470
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 2:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"...what makes Maplewood truly wonderful and truly remarkable, is the absolute respect we show each other even when we disagree. A respect which is founded on our mutual reverence for democracy."

Thank you Paul. It was certainly an honor well deserved. Understanding that we all have different opinions, and to be willing to accept people for who they are is what makes us so great. Best wishes for continued success.

Your a great American Paul... even though you're not a Republican.

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