| Author |
Message |
    
nan
Citizen
Username: Nan
Post Number: 1839
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 12:52 pm: | 
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Fringe=Tucker
The factually challenged website we have been discussing is on AOL Hometown:
http://hometown.aol.com/njfabian/
Don't believe everything you read, kids.
Especially when it's inspired by the tactics of a certian Roman General that beleived in using small attacks over time. |
sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 13226
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 2:27 pm: |
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Nan,
I think your characterization of his website is completely unfair. Mr. Fringe deserves enormous credit for putting forth facts and data that tell a story of how our district acts in terms of population, programs and results. You might not like some of his built-in commentary, but he has more raw facts there - valuable facts - than the BOE website has or, for that matter, any other source I can think of. Nothing is even close.
If you object to the way he personally interprets the facts, that is your right.
But test score results, comparisons to other districts in terms of spending, etc., are all data points that cannot be dismissed.
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Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7674
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 3:05 pm: |
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Nan, are all the articles you publish from Professors of Education at third and fourth tier universities facts just because you share their views?
Are you suggesting that all the statistical information Fringe publishes isn't correct? Or is your issue that the articles, studies, etc. that he posts or links to are incorrect simply because you don't agree with them.
Do you post articles you don't agree with here on MOL? |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 2036
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 3:05 pm: |
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Excuse me. I have no business butting in here, but there is no info. on that website about out of district placements. There were many over the past years, as I witnessed, and even placed some of them, myself, for SOMSD.
In my current system, I know of a placement costing $70,000 for tuition and $26,000 for transportation. A district can get emergency relief from other sources, but it is still a stress on the system.
If you figure around eight out of district placements, or a bit more, per school, you have a big out-of-district placement bill.
The transportation costs section makes no mention of out of district tuition placement costs. How can you discuss costs without that figure?
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nan
Citizen
Username: Nan
Post Number: 1844
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 5:38 pm: |
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Sbenois,
Fringe's website is not even close to objective or factual. I don't know why you shill for him but considering what a hissy fit you threw about NJ Monthly a few years ago I find it difficult to see how you can endorse a person that has declared war on the MW/SO school system.
Does not compute. |
nan
Citizen
Username: Nan
Post Number: 1845
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 5:53 pm: |
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Bobk,
You are missing the point. My beef with Fringe's website is that he claims it is entirely objective and factual. As I pointed out there are lots of factual errors and a desire to publicize a purely negative picture of our school district.
It is not just what he puts on there. It is also, as Tulip points out, what he leaves out. His selection says a great deal about his viewpoint.
So, his objectivity is a fraud. That's what annoys me. I have never claimed to be neutral, and I don't believe anyone is, including you. |
sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 13227
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 6:10 pm: |
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The "hissy fit" I "threw" was an objection to the too easy dismissal of the NJ Monthly scores because some here objected to their methodology. I suggested that if the scores were good, people here would be climbing all over themselves with congratulations for a job well done while overlooking their "objections" to the methdology.
The point -then, and now today in this back and forth with you- is that it's far too easy to paint Mr. Fringe's numbers as being false because you don't like his beliefs or you think he has an agenda or because, in your opinion, he's "declared war".
From my perspective key facts and data do mean something regardless of whether they're posted on his website or on the BOE website or wherever they may be seen by interested parties. And it cannot be denied that he's got far more data -factual data - on his website than the BOE does.
Does Fringe have editorial comment built into his website? Of course he does. Presumably this is his right since it's his website. But I look past those comments when I'm trying to understand statistics on our reading scores. It's the numbers that matter, not the messenger.
It does compute. It totally computes. |
nan
Citizen
Username: Nan
Post Number: 1846
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 6:43 pm: |
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Didn't you ever read the book, "How to Lie With Statistics?"
Fringe claims that all the information on his website is correct, not just the numbers. He denies having "editorial comment" as you delicately put it. That's the whole point.
Who cares who has the most numbers. Do you think this is a competition over size? Maybe that's really what it is all about for him, but whatever it is about it is not about objectivity or a neutral presentation of facts.
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sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 13228
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 6:49 pm: |
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(whatever) |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7676
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 7:59 am: |
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An interesting read. However, I think the whole presentation is flawed because it doesn't relate administrative expense percentages to classroom instruction expense percentages. While I think that over the last couple of years the BOE has made some progress in limiting administrative costs, there is still probably a way to go on this.
Here is a link to Fringe's often maligned website page on this subject, showing the historical breakdown of costs between the ying and the yang so to speak. Unfortunately, Fringe has been so busy sparing with Nan he hasn't updated his graphs. 
http://hometown.aol.com/njfabian/perpupil9603.htm |
wharfrat
Citizen
Username: Wharfrat
Post Number: 1598
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 11:58 am: |
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At 11% of "classroom instruction expense percentages", SOMA is below the 12% cap that 1701 requires.
At $1181 per student for administrative expenses we are $7 over the average for districts with enrollment above 3500 students.
http://www.state.nj.us/cgi-bin/education/csg/04/csg.pl |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7684
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 12:11 pm: |
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Wharf, how much under the averages are the classroom costs? |
wharfrat
Citizen
Username: Wharfrat
Post Number: 1600
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 2:16 pm: |
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I'm not sure what you mean by "classroom costs". As you know (since you do look at the report card) the report card doesn't have this single category.
But if you mean how much do we spend on teacher salay and benefits, then projected staffing costs for the '05-'06 school year will be 75% of the proposed budget(the largest component of classroom expenses)according to the introductory presentation (1/24/05) of the preliminary budget '05-'06.
As an aside, did you attend any of these?
According to Budget 101, and the report card, our classroom percentage are slightly lower than comparable districts, because we have a relatively inexperienced staff.
As another aside, did you attend any Budget 101, watch it on TV, or access Budget 101 on the district website?
And as the newer teachers gain experience within the district the average number of years is increasing (it was 7 years of experience last year) as the statewide average decreases (it was 12 years, similarly).
In short, SOMA lower percentage doesn’t mean that we have less staff in the classroom. It just means we pay them less, in total, than the statewide average.
http://education.state.nj.us/rc/rc04/dataselect.php?datasection%5B4%5D=financial &c=13&d=4900&s=030<=CD&st=CD, |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 4652
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 2:25 pm: |
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Wharf,
Do we have any district comparisons for:
Admin positions
Admin salaries
Thanks.
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Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7685
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 2:49 pm: |
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Wharf, nice try.
Our ratio of teachers to pupils is also fairly high. Classroom expenses are a lower percentage of total expenses in the SOMSD than the state average by about 10% ($5,649 for SOMSD vs. $6,313 for the state). On the other hand our administrative costs are 2% above the state average ($1,181 for SOMSD vs. $1,160 for the state) As I have said before we are a large district and there should be some economy of scale on the admin expenses.
While I commend the BOE for slowing down the growth in admin expenses over the last few years, we still have higher than average admin expenses and way below average expenses for classroom instruction. BTW the average administrator's experience is also lower than the state average.
BTW, great summary you pulled off the state website.
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wharfrat
Citizen
Username: Wharfrat
Post Number: 1601
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 3:50 pm: |
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Mem-
According to NJEA database, SOMA administrators have on average greater longevity within the district and career than like administrators within NJ.
I suppose it stands to reason that they would be paid more, based on the salary guide within ASCA contracts.
Is that your point? |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7687
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 3:55 pm: |
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Wharf, according to the data at the site you linked to above the average experience of an Administrator in the SOMSD schools is 21 years vs. a state average of 25 years. |
wharfrat
Citizen
Username: Wharfrat
Post Number: 1602
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 3:57 pm: |
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Again, Bobk, our teacher expenses are lower than the state avg. because we have more "newer" teachers within the district.
273 of our teachers have less than 7 years experience in the classroom. 132 have 7 to 12 years experience in the classroom. 145 of our teachers have more than 13 years experience.
This means almost 2/3 of the teachers in our district have been teaching less than 13 years. this is why our aggregate amount is less.
As to administrative salaries, see the above post. |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7688
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 4:04 pm: |
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Wharf, again according to the state site our average teacher salary is around $57,500 vs. a state average of $50,500 projected for the 2003/4 year. Average experience, which I admit can be misleading, is eight years vs. 10 years for the state. |
wharfrat
Citizen
Username: Wharfrat
Post Number: 1603
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 4:05 pm: |
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And administrators are paid more in this part of NJ, than elsewhere in the state, based on salary guides within ASCA contracts. |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7689
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 6:01 pm: |
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Me thinks we are comparing apples and oranges. The thrust of my posts here is that the average cost per pupil for administration is higher than average, while the average cost per pupil is below average.
Since Brian has been President of the BOE there has been improvement in our administrative costs. However, they still are high on a per pupil basis when compared to classroom instruction costs. |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 4657
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 7:30 pm: |
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Wharf,
I am trying to find out how this district could save money - that is my point.
Why should our admins make so much money and have these nice raises when they have a 25% failure rate, the schools are falling apart and they have dropped invaluable courses?
And I have every right to question - I pay these people their salary, almost $7k per year. |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 4658
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 7:31 pm: |
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And if they were worthy of these salaries and these raises then we wouldn't have teacher problems. |
wharfrat
Citizen
Username: Wharfrat
Post Number: 1604
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 8:52 pm: |
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Bobk-
You have stated "your thrust", and I have provided detailed information regarding "your thrust".
I can't control what you do with this info.
Once again-
Median teacher salary in 04/05 is somewhere around $58,000. This is reflective of the prevailing rate in this part of NJ.
74% of teachers in the district have less than 12 years or less experience. This is why the aggregate is lower.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Steve Latz and David Frazer have served on the board finance committee. Give them credit for tirelessly working on budget issues.
Administration costs per pupil put us in the middle of the pack for districts in Essex, Bergen, Hudson, Union and Passaic County, with enrollments of more than $6,000. All of these counties have highest education costs in the state because of population density.
Data from comparative spending guide
Admin costs per pupil
Source-Comparative spending guide, 3/04
$923 Clifton
955 Plainfield
975 Bloomfield
1063 Wayne
1057 Montclair
1135 North Bergen Township
1157 Elizabeth
1160 Linden
1181 SOMA
1268 Irvington
1304 Union Twp
1322 West Orange
1339 Paterson
1345 East Orange
1388 West NY
1490 Jersey City
1827 Passaic
1945 Newark |
wharfrat
Citizen
Username: Wharfrat
Post Number: 1605
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 8:55 pm: |
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Mem-
Want to save money? Have teachers pay into their benefits package.
Then watch the exodus.
9 out of 10 New Jersey school districts pay 100% of employee health insurance costs.
What 25% failure rate are you referring to?
As regards to teacher problems, it is a two way street, right?
The ASCA contract called for 5.5% increase, in line with raises the teachers received in their last contract. |
Reflective
Citizen
Username: Reflective
Post Number: 742
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 9:02 pm: |
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Nan and wharfrat are the tagteam champs of MOL -when one tires, the other jumps in and starts hammering on this fact or that.
Fringe's website consists of Demographics, Standardized Test Results, Language Arts Curriculum, Education Spending,Columbia High School, District Philosophy, and Misc. which is opinion.
Each one of the above headings contains numerous facts and data about our School District.
More than most residents could imagine.
And another fact, prior to OPRA,Fringe had to fight the Administration year after year to obtain alot of the data. It didn't come easy. The greatest stonewalling from the noncommunicating BOE/Admin came on budget info and test scores.
So Maplewoodians, make up your own mind. At least two posters vehemently attack this site.
It may be they disagree with some of the opinion or research as it applies to our school district.
Or it may be that theirs is a knee-jerk reaction from the so-called academy.
But the site overwhelmingly contains data of interest to all taxpaying residents.
Had they produced studies which are relevant to our district, their arguments might be stronger, and Fringe has offered to post their arguments, if relevant to our district.
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Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7690
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 4:51 am: |
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Wharf, you are trying to separate administrative costs from direct classroom costs and overall costs.
We are midpack for admin costs per pupil, but towards the low end for direct classroom costs per pupil. Classroom costs are made up by class size as well as salary. Heck, the table you linked to earlier shows this.
Where do you want to put your tax dollars, Academy Street or in the classroom? Actually, forget the question, I think you have answered it. |
fringe
Citizen
Username: Fringe
Post Number: 791
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 7:40 am: |
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The administrative and classroom teacher cost data at the site was taken from last year's Budget 101 series. It's the district's view. As stated elsewhere, the cost per student perspective is greatly effected by the denominator - the number of students. Hence a district such as ours with 9 schools and 6,400 students may appear to have a lower administrative cost per student than a district with the same number of schools (and administrators) but fewer students - say 5,800. |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7694
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 8:46 am: |
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Wharf here is a table outlining the points I have been making. If I was an outsider looking in I would interpret the numbers, not necessarily 100% correctly as indicative of a district interested in process over instruction and one that spends a lot of money on building maintenance.
| 2001 2002 | | 2002-2003 | | 2003-2004 est | | 2003-2004 | | SOMSD | State | SOMSD | State | SOMSD | State | Percentage | | Total Classroom Instruction | $5,179 | $5,756 | $5,450 | $6,063 | $5,649 | $6,313 | 89% | | Total Administration Costs | $1,176 | $1,108 | $1,131 | $1,104 | $1,181 | $1,160 | 102% | | Total Support Services | $1,455 | $1,453 | $1,506 | $1,588 | $1,588 | $1,623 | 98% | | Total Operations and Maintenance of Plant | $1,289 | $1,102 | $1,413 | $1,182 | $1,583 | $1,243 | 127% | | Total Food Services Costs | $0 | $26 | $0 | $27 | $0 | $24 | 0% | | Total Extracurricular Costs | $108 | $175 | $110 | $180 | $118 | $195 | 61% | | TOTAL COMPARATIVE COST PER PUPIL | $9,219 | $9,482 | $9,626 | $9,942 | $10,141 | $10,621 | 95% | | | | Total Support Services is made up primarily of benefit costs | | | | | | | | | |
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Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7698
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 9:57 am: |
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I should have made it clear that the costs shown in the above table are per pupil. |
xavier67
Citizen
Username: Xavier67
Post Number: 459
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 11:31 am: |
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"the schools are falling apart"?
wow. |
wharfrat
Citizen
Username: Wharfrat
Post Number: 1606
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 12:23 pm: |
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An outsider looking exclusively at your charts, Bob, would not know the following-
1. That our buildings are older than even you, and the infrastructure of districts outside NE NJ is in general newer, and not in need of the type of day to day maintenance common to SOMA.
2. The state average includes districts in western and southern NJ that do not have higher costs associated with living in NE NJ.
3. Our administrative costs per pupil put us smack in the middle of district averages within Essex Cty., and the most expensive counties in NE NJ.
4. Our administrative costs are just above average, and are consistent with districts within our DFG.
5. Administrative costs are more than central office administrator salaries.
6. As teachers and support staff work longer in the district, aggregate salaries and benefits will increase faster than the state average because we live in a more expensive part of the state.
7. An outsider would also not know the reasons we spend less on total costs per student, on average, than the rest of the state. |
lumpyhead
Citizen
Username: Lumpyhead
Post Number: 1137
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 12:40 pm: |
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An outsider can easily see that you and your wife support the current administration no matter what.
7 years down the drain with this guy but I know, the real solution is to spend more money. |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7700
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 12:45 pm: |
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Wharf, then why are our administrative expenses per pupil over the state average and our class room instruction costs per pupil at 89% of the state average? The regional differences you talk about should effect both admin and classroom costs. Our average teacher salary is above state averages by the way.
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Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7703
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 1:17 pm: |
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As respects maintenance costs, which includes the rising energy costs Sbenois mentions elsewhere, is an interesting one. Our infrastructure is fairly old and possibly energy upgrades, including new boilers and storm windows, might make sense. Since this is a capital improvement, it can be bonded. Just getting our infrastructure costs to the state average would save us around $2,000,000 per year. |
wharfrat
Citizen
Username: Wharfrat
Post Number: 1607
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 4:03 pm: |
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Actually Bob, the BoSE just approved 12.6 million in bonds. When added to 8.2 million from the state, this will pay for the districts next phase of capital improvements. Among the items scheduled for replacement-windows in almost every school and new boilers at Tuscan. |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7704
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 5:59 pm: |
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Good!! |
mjc
Citizen
Username: Mjc
Post Number: 275
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 6:17 pm: |
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That's good news about the windows.
Pending possible replacement of other old boilers, does anyone know if there has been an "energy use audit" or review of the existing systems within recent memory?
It's been my observation (at Marshall, Jefferson, and SOMS; no experience at CHS) that some areas of the schools, if not most, seem overly warm, possibly in the 75-80 degree range. (Both of my kids went to Marshall in T-shirts year-round and still complained of the heat.)
It seems as though a qualified heating company or energy use consultant could tweak these systems and save some fuel.
Overall, though, I believe we have to expect the buildings to be more expensive to maintain than near-new facilities in the west and south of the state. Most of us need look no farther than our own houses to see why. |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 4661
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 8:56 pm: |
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Wharf,
I wasn't referring to the teachers, I was referring to the administration.
That's good news about the school repairs. |
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