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Dave
Moderator Username: Dave
Post Number: 5234 Registered: 4-1998

| Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 8:29 pm: |
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Interesting interview with Neal Stephenson in Reason. This excerpt regarding the place of science in our culture especially:
quote:Reason: The Baroque Cycle suggests that there are sometimes great explosions of creativity, followed by that creative energy’s recombining and eventual crystallization into new forms—social, technological, political. Are we seeing a similar degree of explosive progress in the modern U.S.? Stephenson: The success of the U.S. has not come from one consistent cause, as far as I can make out. Instead the U.S. will find a way to succeed for a few decades based on one thing, then, when that peters out, move on to another. Sometimes there is trouble during the transitions. So, in the early-to-mid-19th century, it was all about expansion westward and a colossal growth in population. After the Civil War, it was about exploitation of the world’s richest resource base: iron, steel, coal, the railways, and later oil. For much of the 20th century it was about science and technology. The heyday was the Second World War, when we had not just the Manhattan Project but also the Radiation Lab at MIT and a large cryptology industry all cooking along at the same time. The war led into the nuclear arms race and the space race, which led in turn to the revolution in electronics, computers, the Internet, etc. If the emblematic figures of earlier eras were the pioneer with his Kentucky rifle, or the Gilded Age plutocrat, then for the era from, say, 1940 to 2000 it was the engineer, the geek, the scientist. It’s no coincidence that this era is also when science fiction has flourished, and in which the whole idea of the Future became current. After all, if you’re living in a technocratic society, it seems perfectly reasonable to try to predict the future by extrapolating trends in science and engineering. It is quite obvious to me that the U.S. is turning away from all of this. It has been the case for quite a while that the cultural left distrusted geeks and their works; the depiction of technical sorts in popular culture has been overwhelmingly negative for at least a generation now. More recently, the cultural right has apparently decided that it doesn’t care for some of what scientists have to say. So the technical class is caught in a pincer between these two wings of the so-called culture war. Of course the broad mass of people don’t belong to one wing or the other. But science is all about diligence, hard sustained work over long stretches of time, sweating the details, and abstract thinking, none of which is really being fostered by mainstream culture. Since our prosperity and our military security for the last three or four generations have been rooted in science and technology, it would therefore seem that we’re coming to the end of one era and about to move into another. Whether it’s going to be better or worse is difficult for me to say. The obvious guess would be “worse.” If I really wanted to turn this into a jeremiad, I could hold forth on that for a while. But as mentioned before, this country has always found a new way to move forward and be prosperous. So maybe we’ll get lucky again. In the meantime, efforts to predict the future by extrapolating trends in the world of science and technology are apt to feel a lot less compelling than they might have in 1955.
http://www.reason.com/0502/fe.mg.neal.shtml |
   
birdbrain
Citizen Username: Birdbrain
Post Number: 70 Registered: 2-2003

| Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 11:47 am: |
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Neal Stephenson is one of my favorite authors. If you haven't read Cryptonomicon then run, don't walk to your nearest bookstore and buy it. Read it. Read it now. I think he has a good point about science. The religious-right is trying to hijack science and evolution under the guise of "intelligent design", while the left kind of shrugs; the left has never been known for attracting the hard-core engineer or science geek. -David "Not a geek, I've never bitten the head off a chicken" Wren-Hardin -Show Them the Door. |
   
themp
Supporter Username: Themp
Post Number: 1475 Registered: 12-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 2:03 pm: |
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"It is quite obvious to me that the U.S. is turning away from all of this. It has been the case for quite a while that the cultural left distrusted geeks and their works; the depiction of technical sorts in popular culture has been overwhelmingly negative for at least a generation now." How does the cultural left distrust "geeks" and their work? Sounds like bull to me. Very broad brush, and the term "geek" is left vague so he can say whatever he wants. Same with "technical sorts" being depicted negatively. Batman is a scientist. So is Spiderman. Maybe the military industrial types get depicted negatively in popular culture, but I'd say, given the whole internet era, Wired magazine, etc experience we all went through recently, that "technical types" are lionized in our culture. I'm surprised to see he's a humbug. I know a lot of people think he's great. |
   
themp
Supporter Username: Themp
Post Number: 1476 Registered: 12-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 2:34 pm: |
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Sorry, it got under my skin a little. I think he likes to borrow the authority of the sciences. He did have a minor in physics. "It seems quite obvious to me" (to borrow one of his phrases) that he wants to play fair between left and right, but when I see Ed Begley Jr in his solar car, I don't see animosity to science. I see a geek in love with geekiness. The tech boom came out of California, not Arkansas. |
   
Valentine Michael Smith
Citizen Username: Umbert
Post Number: 70 Registered: 3-2004

| Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 3:46 pm: |
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stephenson is a genius. he really does tend to offer an original perspective on almost everythng he tackles. either that or i'm just not reading the same stuff he is. crytonomicon was excellent, except of course for its crappy crappy ending. damn that was a disapointing ending. if only the baroque cycle was in a managable paperback.
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Bobkat
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7617 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 3:54 pm: |
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I think the literary, artistic left tends to denigrate science and scientists as nothing more than technicians. The right is attacking a lot of biological science on religious grounds. My daughter is in cell biology. Otherwise inteligent and reasonable people are surprised that she isn't a nerd, wears something other than jeans most days, watches TV, listens to popular music and in general enjoys a good time. I worked with a group of engineers for several years. While I love to tell engineer stories, most of them unflatering, if the truth be told they were a pretty interesting group with numerous outside interests and fully capable of speaking and writing coherent English. |
   
Dave
Moderator Username: Dave
Post Number: 5298 Registered: 4-1998

| Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 3:56 pm: |
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Speaking of geekery, how much would you pay for this manuscript?
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themp
Supporter Username: Themp
Post Number: 1477 Registered: 12-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 4:00 pm: |
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"crytonomicon was excellent, except of course for its crappy crappy ending. damn that was a disapointing ending. " That will cause a few people not to read it! He has a few somewhat defensive comments on his website about book length and endings, and a number of his own works that he no longer endorses, and being a recluse, and some other stuff. He seems to be a very put-upon character. |
   
amandacat
Citizen Username: Amandacat
Post Number: 796 Registered: 8-2001

| Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 5:28 pm: |
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Sorry, Themp, I don't quite get what you mean by "a very put upon character", can't tell if you're being critical of him for his website statements or not; can you clarify? FYI Valentine and anyone else who might care, Volume 1 of The Baroque Cycle (QUICKSILVER) is available in paperback now, and Volume 2 (THE CONFUSION) will be published in paperback in June. Not sure when Volume 3 (THE SYSTEM OF THE WORLD) will be released in paperback, but I'd guess it would be either fall 2005 or early winter 2006 . . . |
   
themp
Supporter Username: Themp
Post Number: 1479 Registered: 12-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 6:12 pm: |
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Here are a few quotres from his website. I am carping, I know, but they aren't all that endearing. "There is a Cult of Brevity that holds a certain amount of sway in the writing world. Some of its devotees are teachers (and students) in formal creative writing programs where the coin of the realm is short stories, or fragments thereof. Others are editors and journalists who, as a condition of their employment, must produce work of fixed length. Among people who follow the Cult of Brevity, the ability to write pieces that are not very long is thought to be the mark of the competent, well-trained, disciplined writer. So you can imagine what such people think of people who write longer pieces, such as myself! To me it seems self-evident that the Cult of Brevity is grievously mistaken, and am not inclined to dispute it here. (this is just bad writing IMHO - why "SELF-evident"? "grievously"?) Some readers, or so it would appear, have been dissatisfied with the endings of certain of my novels. These people often come to the reasonable-sounding but totally wrong hypothesis that I am trying, but failing, to write the sorts of endings that they would like to see. (says who?) This is not the case. In fact, I always write the endings that I want to, and am as satisfied with my endings as I am with any other aspect of my writing. I just have an opinion about what constitutes a good ending that is at variance with some of my readers. In this world there are certain people who have appointed themselves the Ego Police and who go around denouncing anyone they think has too big of an ego. From time to time, one of them denounces me...(small wonder) Not long after, I saw myself referred to somewhere as "reclusive." Now, since I live in a crowded neighborhood in a populous city and socialize with people every day, and frequently take part in parties, dinners, etc., I found it very strange that I should be characterized in this way...(blah blah blah) From time to time someone will publish a troll about me; for example, that I hired them to help me write one of my books, or that they used to be a friend or colleague of mine, etc., etc (you get the point) Not my kind of genius, I guess.
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Dave
Moderator Username: Dave
Post Number: 5299 Registered: 4-1998

| Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 6:18 pm: |
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You have to cut him some slack for writing his 1000 page tomes with a quill pen and ink. |
   
themp
Supporter Username: Themp
Post Number: 1480 Registered: 12-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 6:18 pm: |
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"I think the literary, artistic left tends to denigrate science and scientists as nothing more than technicians." Give me an example. Maybe I don't see it. I work with engineers every day, and I don't see liberals dumping on them, nor do I see anti-science messages in the arts. I think, in fact, that environmentalist lefties are pretty fetishistic about groovy young biologists sticking it to the business world.
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themp
Supporter Username: Themp
Post Number: 1481 Registered: 12-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 6:22 pm: |
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I am being totally unreasonable, but for some reason, I really don't like him, and I think he's a big pompous phoney. I know that he doesn't give a damn about me! Now that Zane Grey! There's your thrill writer! |
   
Dave
Moderator Username: Dave
Post Number: 5300 Registered: 4-1998

| Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 6:56 pm: |
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I often get the sense that Stephenson wants to be Pynchon, but easier to read. |
   
themp
Supporter Username: Themp
Post Number: 1485 Registered: 12-2001
| Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 10:24 am: |
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Maybe I'll actually read one of his books someday. That way I'll be entitled to a strong opinion. My operative theory is that he is to his genre what Tom Clancy is to spy books (note both are "boy" genres). He gets this authority and respect, and people start to think he really knows something more than how to put together a potboiler, so he's allowed to make speeches and broad pronouncements. |
   
Dave
Moderator Username: Dave
Post Number: 5302 Registered: 4-1998

| Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 10:47 am: |
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Cryptonomicon is a great book. |
   
birdbrain
Citizen Username: Birdbrain
Post Number: 72 Registered: 2-2003

| Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 11:18 am: |
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I think he has more claim to the hacker label than Clancy does to the spy-label. Stephenson used to be "hacker", for whatever that word meant back in the mid-eighties/early nineties. I don't think Clancy ever used to be a spy/CIA director, etc. But they both have their devoted followings. He's long been criticized for his endings, mostly because they don't seem to measure up to the grandeur of the rest of the book. I wasn't horribly disappointed with the Cryptonomicon ending. While he may not be a "recluse", on the other hand, he certainly doesn't think he needs to bend over backward to be accessible to the public either, which is his right. His comments on book-length and his statements against academic literature strike as somewhat similar to Brust and the rest of the PJF (Pre-Joycian Fellowship) back in the mid-late '80s. -David Wren-Hardin |
   
Valentine Michael Smith
Citizen Username: Umbert
Post Number: 71 Registered: 3-2004

| Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 11:29 am: |
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You should definitely read one of his books. I really doubt you would be able to compare him to Clancy after doing so. Cryptonomicon IS a great book, but I was greatly disappointed in the ending. It kind of seemed like he wrote himself into some sort of corner where there really was no way to end the book in a way that stood up to rest of the book. Don't get me wrong, reading it is worth every single page, even with the disappointing ending. I actually started Quicksilver, but between the book being too damn big to lug around on the subway and his ability to lose himself in such technical/mathematical descriptions, I kind of lost interest. I'll try again with the paperback. I also made a push to my wife to name of first son Enoch. She was having none of that. Ever read the Diamond Age or Snowcrash?
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amandacat
Citizen Username: Amandacat
Post Number: 797 Registered: 8-2001

| Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 11:50 am: |
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First of all, before you start comparing Stephenson to Clancy, you might actually want to pick up one of his books; Stephenson is no hack genre writer. He's also not anywhere near as successful, commercially, as Clancy is, probably due in large part to the fact that he writes not for the market but for himself; he has stories he wants to tell and ideas he wants to get across, and enough readers who want to hear those stories and ideas to keep him in business -- and good for him for that! As for his boad pronouncements, the man has a huge, hardcore, and very communicative fan base who wants to know what he thinks about, well, just about everything, plus plenty of critics with strong opinions about everything from the content of his ideas, the length of his books, how he should be using his spare time, whether he's a hermit or a recluse or a pompous phoney. Cut the man some slack! His website is his way of giving the people what they want, without having to explain himself over and over again to people individually; if you're not interested in what he has to say, that's cool, just don't read it. All that said, which Stephenson book should Themp read first, folks? SNOW CRASH or CRYPTONOMICON perhaps? I'll gladly give him a copy of either one, I'm just not sure which would be better to start with. |
   
Dave
Moderator Username: Dave
Post Number: 5304 Registered: 4-1998

| Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 12:54 pm: |
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Snow Crash is a blast, but very different from Crypto. |
   
themp
Supporter Username: Themp
Post Number: 1490 Registered: 12-2001
| Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 3:05 pm: |
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"Cut the man some slack!" Does that mean I have to like him? I don't think I'm doing him any harm. A book about a guy names Hiro Protagonist who is the "greatest swordfighter" in the world and a master hacker? It sounds so childish. I can just see the Japanimation version, with his locks falling over his eyes. And he goes flying through the air, but it's just the same frame with a moving background. And there's a 15 year old girl with a high tech skateboard? And it's like 1000 pages, with a lame ending? I hear there's a long set piece where he has to dress up as a robot and pass the "orgazmitron" around at a party. And then he and "Fielding" orders potato salad and cole slaw for the rebels and makes Vargas pay. When I was a night watchman at the mill, I used to bring three things - a vacuum flask of coffee, the latest Mickey Spillane book, and a big flashlight. I used to savor those books when there wasn't a ballgame on the radio set for me to listen too. Maybe I'm just too old for this Siberia-punk stuff. |
   
Dave
Moderator Username: Dave
Post Number: 5307 Registered: 4-1998

| Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 3:22 pm: |
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You're confusing 2 books. Snow Crash is about 400 pages and has a good ending. It also features Uncle Enzo's Pizza delivery service (a mob-run monopoly for getting your pie to you in less than 30 minutes or.. or else). If you can watch and enjoy Blade Runner and Brazil, you'll like the book. Does it sound silly? Yes. Is it childish? No. There are interesting themes and ideas even while there are samurai computer guys shooting around on hovercrafts. |
   
themp
Supporter Username: Themp
Post Number: 1491 Registered: 12-2001
| Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 3:32 pm: |
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"After the Civil War, it was about exploitation of the world’s richest resource base: iron, steel, coal, the railways, and later oil. " I didn't know railways were a natural phenomenon. "If the emblematic figures of earlier eras were the pioneer with his Kentucky rifle, or the Gilded Age plutocrat, then for the era from, say, 1940 to 2000 it was the engineer, the geek, the scientist." What about the capitalist? Man in the Gray Flannel Suit? Business? TV? The Hula hoop? The Cadillac? Did he grow up in the USSR? Aren't inventions commercially exploited by business? Wasn't the Manhattan project secret during the 40's, anyway? "But science is all about diligence, hard sustained work over long stretches of time, sweating the details, and abstract thinking, none of which is really being fostered by mainstream culture." What does that even mean? Is Britney supposed to have a lab on stage with her so someone can get some research done?
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themp
Supporter Username: Themp
Post Number: 1492 Registered: 12-2001
| Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 3:38 pm: |
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Like I say, maybe I'll look into it. |
   
themp
Supporter Username: Themp
Post Number: 1493 Registered: 12-2001
| Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 3:45 pm: |
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http://www.funlol.com/funpages/worst-weatherman-ever.html |
   
themp
Supporter Username: Themp
Post Number: 1494 Registered: 12-2001
| Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 3:56 pm: |
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Amandacat has finished how many of his books, by the way? Just curious. |
   
Valentine Michael Smith
Citizen Username: Umbert
Post Number: 73 Registered: 3-2004

| Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 4:23 pm: |
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for someone who hasn't read any of his books, or even tried, it is kind of weird how much you hate the guy. |
   
themp
Supporter Username: Themp
Post Number: 1497 Registered: 12-2001
| Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 4:35 pm: |
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Aint it? I cannot figure it out. Frankly, I am kind of bored today. I'd go off on anything else (besides politics) just as easily. Maybe he has a lot of interesting ideas. |
   
themp
Supporter Username: Themp
Post Number: 1501 Registered: 12-2001
| Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 5:01 pm: |
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Oh, gosh, those poor "geeks" aren't being fostered enough.
"Majors in computer engineering and chemical engineering top the list of most lucrative college degrees. Average starting salaries for computer engineers reached $53,117, up very slightly from their levels at this time last year. Starting salaries for chemical engineers, meanwhile, rose 2.5 percent to $52,563. " CNN Ok, I'm done now.
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Dave
Moderator Username: Dave
Post Number: 5310 Registered: 4-1998

| Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 9:46 am: |
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This service seems to have been inspired by Snow Crash http://everquest2.station.sony.com/pizza/
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themp
Supporter Username: Themp
Post Number: 1505 Registered: 12-2001
| Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 10:38 am: |
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Will you lend me a copy? |
   
Chris Prenovost
Citizen Username: Chris_prenovost
Post Number: 342 Registered: 7-2003
| Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 7:02 pm: |
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You know, this guy does have an interesting point. There has always been a streak of anti-intellectualism in America. But recently, it seems to be getting stronger. Not just that scientists are being demoted in the popular pantheon, but that our popular culture seems to be celebrating stupidity, boorishness and offensiveness. We take airhead heiress morons who make porno videos and splash them all over the front page for months on end. It seems to me that in years past, anyone caught on tape like that would have hung their head in shame and crawled away to hide in a cave. Now, they hold their heads high and revel in the celebrity that comes with outrageous behavior. While those who do great things get a brief mention before the media go on to the next salacious sex scandal. . . . sorry it was time for my weekly rant. |
   
Montagnard
Citizen Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 1426 Registered: 6-2003

| Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 10:55 pm: |
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One might argue that technique has always been the handmaiden of power, and that in an era of relative abundance brought about by scientific technique, there is a greater need for psychological technique to maintain the status quo. Science without instrumental value sinks to the level of ballet as a cultural force. |
   
Dave
Moderator Username: Dave
Post Number: 5321 Registered: 4-1998

| Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 11:03 pm: |
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I can't locate my copy of Snow Crash. Must have loaned it to someone. |
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