| Author |
Message |
    
Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 1591
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 4:59 pm: | 
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Thank you for that.
I needed a good hearty laugh after this week. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 5577
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 5:19 pm: |
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OK, you're not advocating gun ownership. But you're advocating fighting, right? I'm not saying fighting back is bad. But in some cases, not fighting back is OK, too. Can you respect that? |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7654
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 6:01 pm: |
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I would hate to be the attorney who had to defend either the woman or the older guy if they had been armed and blown away the unarmed perps. I guess it is "better to be tried by twelve than carried by six", but still who knows the result? |
Reflective
Citizen
Username: Reflective
Post Number: 740
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 9:41 pm: |
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newone:
in addition to your stories above - what is even more true is that armed citizens just displaying their weapons stop criminal acts without even firing their weapon.
This is because almost all of the legally armed citizens are trained in their use, confident in their own ability and do not want to use their weapon unless absolutely necessary.
This is a very hard concept for most blues to understand. It's called individual responsibility, and the willingness to stand up to the bad guys. |
anon
Citizen
Username: Anon
Post Number: 1663
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 10:28 pm: |
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"How about if someone is in the express line with more than 10 items - am I justified in whipping out my weapon and threatening them? Can I open fire if they refuse to move to the slower line?"
FINALLY! A really good reason to carry a gun!
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Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 1427
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 11:06 pm: |
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The gun advocates display a naive idealism about human behavior that goes against all experience. Moreover, like all idealists, they cling to their beliefs even when the weight of evidence is against them. It's tragic in a uniquely ironic way. |
Mustt_mustt
Citizen
Username: Mustt_mustt
Post Number: 286
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 12:30 am: |
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Nicely put, Montagnard.
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pcg
Citizen
Username: Pcg
Post Number: 117
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 9:57 pm: |
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In the safe on the second floor in the bedroom. Next to the L. C. Smith Vintage 1919 20 Gauge Specialty Grade and the Parker PHE 12 Gauge and the 98 Mauser .358 Winchester and the Marlin Model 1891 .22RF and the 9mm Hi-Power Sultan of Muscat and Oman Contract Second Model and the J.P. Sauer Box Lock Drilling 12x12x.30-30.
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Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7663
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 6:37 am: |
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I think the idea that just flashing a pistol stops crime comes from a professor named Klinger (or something similar). He did a study that claims that millions of crimes are aborted because of armed civilians. There was a really long thread on this here a couple of years ago.
The danger with this idea is that people may get the impression that just having a gun is protection. This isn't always the case. If you have a personal defense firearm you damn well better be willing to use it.
The number of handguns floating around the US is mind boggling. I have heard numbers between 50 and 100 million. |
Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 1592
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 1:10 pm: |
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Tom,
No true warrior wants to fight.
I'm advocating self defense. Thats it.
Any idiot who thinks brandishing a weapon is enough to stop an attack is an incomprehensible fool.
I'm all for choosing when to fight and when not to. I'd definetly give my wallet to a guy with a gun, but what if he says "thats all you got? Turn around and bend over!" (OK, I'm assuming I'm a lot more desirable than I am, but you get the point).
By the time he's telling you to turn around, its too late. You can try to fight then, but you'll be dead.
Do you know when an attacker should find out you have pepper spray? When he's lying on the ground in pain. Do you know when he should find out you carry a baton or kubotan (and I've seen many of these on the keychains in maplewood)? When he's feeling sharp pain and wondering where it came from. Do you know when an attacker should find out you have a gun? When he's coming out of surgery.
In the self defense classes that I've taken and the ones I've taught, you see the biggest error people make is brandishing a weapon and not using it. "Get back I have pepper spray" NEVER WORKS!
Everyone has to decide when the line is crossed for them to use force defending themselves. Whats yours? Seriously.
Is it OK for someone to seal your wallet, but not your coat and shoes? Is it OK for someone to steal your car? What about your dog? I'm not being facetious there either, dog fighters love to steal greyhounds so their pitbulls can get roadwork before they kill. Can they have her? What if they don't want money? If you are a woman, when is it time to defend yourself? Do you just trust the mugger that takes you in to a alley or doorway because he says all he wants is your money? Or do you blow him away? What would you want your wife to do?
And Bobkat,
You are 100% right. Defending yourself is a judgement call, hopefully you make the right one. That certainly is not always the case. With the old guy in HD, I would have been the top witness for the defense. I really thought the nut was going to beat the crap out of this frail old man. The old guy was walking with a cane and just pushing him over could have ended up killing him. It was unbelievable.
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 5610
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 1:15 pm: |
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To quote Steven Wright (I think), I'm planning to live forever. So far, so good. |
Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 1594
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 1:22 pm: |
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Well, I guess if you fail to plan, you can plan to fail. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 5611
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 1:28 pm: |
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Sure, but it depends on how you want to interpret the costs and benefits. The vast majority of people don't plan for such attacks, and most of those people end up not being attacked. There is a cost of preparation, one of them being worry. I know you will say that preparedness can allay the worry, and that's true, too. There is also a cost of not being prepared. But I'm content to play the odds this way. I was mugged a few times in NYC growing up. I know how unpleasant it is. I know the dangers are real. Yet so is the possibility of going unscathed.
If you ask me why I'm so sure I won't be attacked, I'll say I'm not, and I'll ask you why you're sure you will be. To me, life is more pleasant betting that I won't be than betting that I will be. |
Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 1596
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 1:52 pm: |
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I'm sure I was, several times, like I said before.
Hey, good for you. Be content to play the odds your way, and I'll play them my way.
To me its like insurance, I hope to never use it, but I'll sure be glad I have it if I ever need to. I sure don't worry more about catastrophic events because I have home/auto/health/life insurance. In fact, I probably worry less because I have the insurance.
I also look at it like playing Blackjack... there is a basic strategy that if you use consistently, you tilt the odds slightly (very very slightly) in your favor. Now sure you can just go to AC and play with your gut, and maybe you'll win, maybe you'll win big, maybe you'll do it a few times. But the odds are that you are far far safer by playing the basic strategy over and over. It takes a lot of the worry out of it because ou know what to do when you get a king-6 facing a dealers 7. I like that. Does it always work, certainly not, but on the whole the odds are in my favor.
Oh and by the way, I don't mean to mix metaphors, insurance in BJ is a suckers bet unless you have blackjack  |
Joe
Citizen
Username: Gonets
Post Number: 712
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 2:07 pm: |
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Michael,
Thread drift a little. I'd be interested in your recommendation for a good martial arts school for my nephew over the summer. He's 12. I posted this on "please help". Blue Life was suggested and that certainly would be convenient. Since he'll only be in the area for about a month or so, we'll need a place that's ok with him dropping in and then dropping out.
If Blue Life's good I might just take a class there. It would be more interesting than lifting weights, and I don't see the harm in me being better able to defend myself. I may run into Michael in a bar one day, and there's a good chance we'll come to blows.  |
Valentine Michael Smith
Citizen
Username: Umbert
Post Number: 78
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 2:38 pm: |
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Joe - I know you are asking Janay and not me, but of all the martial arts out there to study (in my opinion) I would have to say Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the most effective thing out there. I took Taekwondo for 3 years and probably learned nothing I would ever actually use in a fight. The one month of Jiu Jitsu lessons I took before I moved up north completely and totally changed the way I would run away from a fight, I mean fight. It changed the way I would fight. As soon as my daughter is old enough to learn it, she will (hopefully).
This doesn't really help you figure out where to go, but...
I am curious what form of martial arts Janay finds most effective though...
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Valentine Michael Smith
Citizen
Username: Umbert
Post Number: 79
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 2:44 pm: |
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I would check these guys out...
NEW JERSEY
Guerrero Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
200 Pleasant Valley Way
West Orange, NJ 07052
CONTACT: Johnny Guerrero
PHONE: 201.563.3690
e-mail: Jguerrero@Kneeonbelly.com
www.Kneeonbelly.com |
Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 1598
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 3:03 pm: |
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Joe and VMS,
I've studied Wu Mei Kung Fu, Pakua Chang, Shuai Chiao (kind of Chinese Ju Jutsu), Tai Chi, Judo, Ju Jutsu, and a little Aikido.
I am definetly partial to Judo as the gold standard martial art. There is a dojo in South Orange run by Mamoru Shimamoto who is one of the oldest highest ranked and best judokas still alive... but his school is really old school (including getting hit with a rattan sword if you mess up) and not my style. Still he is a judo treasure.
My favorite Judo dojo around here is South Mountain Martial Arts in Madison, www.smma.net Dayne and Daryn are awesome guys, incredible instructors, and truly phenominal fighters. I trained there for about a year, and then messed up my knee (not there), and got a real job and had to stop. I miss the guys.
Brazilian Ju Jitsu (however you spell it) tends to put ground grappling and fighting at the forefront... meaning they just assume the fight will go to the ground so they concentrate on that aspect and have taken a lot of the more complex techniques out of the art for simplicity's sake. This is good for street fighting, but not so good for Martial art. Good old school judo encompasses not just ground fighting but serious throws and upright holds. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your POV) sport judo has removed much of the actual fighting aspect from this great martial art. Finding real old school judokas (like Shimamoto or the DeRoses') is really something.
For kids, I really have no input. I don't think SMMA has kids classes, and I'm pretty sure not for as young as 12. Shimamoto might have kids classes, and I believe there is a school in Westfield that does. I'd really recommend Judo, the skills he'll learn are not just good for fighting, but the tumbling and breakfalls and rolls are usefull everyday. I've saved myself from breaking bones a few times using judo technique when I fall on rollerblades.
But hey, thats just my opinion. Hope it helps.
Oh, and remember, I'm a lover not a fighter. |
Ily
Citizen
Username: Ily
Post Number: 156
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 5:21 pm: |
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Anybody have an opinion on Krav Maga - Israeli Contact Combat? |
Reflective
Citizen
Username: Reflective
Post Number: 744
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 9:13 pm: |
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I hear it helps on dates |
Joe
Citizen
Username: Gonets
Post Number: 713
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:44 am: |
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Michael and VMS,
Thanks. Now back to more pleasant subjects, guns...
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Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 1601
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 12:53 pm: |
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I've taken some Krav Maga seminars...
Its fine self defense. Every now and then there are places that advertise "military combat techniques" Some teach US miliary techniques some Israeli, some others. Krav is IDF fighting skills. My cousin was a Krav instructor in the IDF, and she was really good, I wouldn't want to mess with her.
The only issue I have with Krav is that it bills itself too much as a martial art when it really is strictly self defense... sure, now we could get into the argeument of what makes a martial art, but my opinion is that MA teaches far more of the complexities of fighting, strength building, balance, psychological aspects of fights, as well as more superflous techniques. The thing is that the "superflous" techniques are usually designed to build different skills to make ou a well rounded fighter. SD teaches you what to do if you are attacked. Far too many martial artists are unskilled in SD, and vice versa. They really are different things.
But once again, thats just my opinion. |
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