| Author | Message | ||
     themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 1446 Registered: 12-2001 |
"Torture also opens us up to the legitmate criticism that we are acting out the very barbarism that we want to fight. I think as Republicans we have heard that charge so many times employed against practices where the analogy was completely inappropriate, that we have become inured to the charge when properly employed. This is a case where the charge has force. Go watch the Nick Berg Beheading Video and then imagine the blood pouring from his neck being just like the blood oozing from the fingers of an innocent torture victim sent to his fate by the CIA. That is the barbarism we are fighting, and that is the barbarism we must not become a part of. I know we have heard the charge that we are acting "just like them" thrown at us over trivial concerns like suggesting that we pay a bit more attention to visa-holders from other countries. This is NOT THAT CASE. This is the case of saying we are acting just like them because we are torturing people--acting just like them." http://www.sebastianholsclaw.com/archives/2005_02.html#000410 | ||
| Michael Janay Citizen Username: Childprotect Post Number: 1552 Registered: 1-2003  |
Once we start cutting off peoples heads on TV, I'll agree we're acting like them. | ||
| ina Citizen Username: Ina Post Number: 168 Registered: 6-2001 |
So, Michael, where do you, personally, draw the line? Forcible sodomy? Rape of a minor? Stripping clothes off a woman who has never appeared in public unless covered head-to-toe? That's all ok by you because it's not chopping off someone's head? | ||
| Earlster Supporter Username: Earlster Post Number: 966 Registered: 8-2003  |
I'm against doing this to people that are guilty, but what if we do any of these things to people who are innocent? Since in a lot of places like Guantanamo they don't even have legal representation I'm convinced this has happened, and it sickens me. Did you read the article Michael? | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 2032 Registered: 5-2001  |
The information coming out of Gitmo is horrifying. Prisoners have been held for years who have never been formally charged and/or have had no access to any sort of representation. Prisoners are literally going insane due to the conditions they are subject to. This is part of what Bush calls "spreading freedom." How can anyone not recognize that this is utterly antithetical to what America is all about?! You want to see someone that hates America? Take a look at anyone who supports holding and torturing prisoners and denying them due process. Oh, and for the benefit of those who think that Democrats have no suggestions on how to better handle the situation, let me propose the following: Formally charge the prisoners against whom a valid case can be made, give them fair trials, and bring the rest of the prisoners home. | ||
| themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 1455 Registered: 12-2001 |
For political reasons, the Bush adminstration legitimized a broad sense of rage against the world. When we fought the Taliban, I shared that rage and I thought it was the right thing to do. When we started talking about freedom fries and legitimate torture, I got nervous. When we invaded Iraq, I thought we had overdone it. I think this is the great political divide in America. Rage. | ||
| Montagnard Citizen Username: Montagnard Post Number: 1403 Registered: 6-2003  |
... if you beat someone to death but don't behead them, it's okay. - Alberto "Torture Boy" Gonzales | ||
| Face Citizen Username: Face Post Number: 513 Registered: 5-2001  |
Notehead, your suggestion to "Formally charge the prisoners against whom a valid case can be made, give them fair trials, and bring the rest of the prisoners home," is tender and caring. Notehead, war is horrifying enough and this is a war. Its not a court case. It's just too damn bad if these enemies (caught on the field of battle) are now going insane. Remember, the people held at Gitmo were apprehended on the field of battle, they were not just taken from their homes in the middle of the night cause they were protesting too much. Many of them aren't even native Afghanistan or Iraqi citizens. They were there to fight a war against American soldiers. As such they have no such rights to our due process laws. The Geneva convention is perhaps out dated for this type of war. A new set of rules needs to be formulated, but further tying up the courts to decide everything in life it a bit unrealistic, especially in war. Perhaps a military tribunal may eventually address their situation, but they should not be subject to due process or considered for release until after the war is over. Some had already been released and been found responsible for new "war crimes," as you'd like to have them called. Torture can be useful in helping to prevent additional attacks. I'm in favor of sleep deprivation, playing loud music, etc... By using techniques that are reasonable and not life-threatening to make suspected terrorists uncomfortable and willing to talk for me makes sense. | ||
| Nohero Citizen Username: Nohero Post Number: 4320 Registered: 10-1999  |
But nobody knows if they're really enemies. Many have been released without charge, and there is no information about the rest of them. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 698 Registered: 5-2004  |
Face, I hadn't heard this. Can you provide a source? | ||
| Dave Moderator Username: Dave Post Number: 5242 Registered: 4-1998  |
Then http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/09/20/chaplain.arrest/ Now http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/nation/10680221.htm | ||
| Dave Moderator Username: Dave Post Number: 5243 Registered: 4-1998 |
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/10680275.htm?1c | ||
| Madden 11 Citizen Username: Madden_11 Post Number: 620 Registered: 12-2003 |
I wonder what it does to your psyche to be such a rabid partisan that you find yourself having to defend torture? | ||
| Albatross Citizen Username: Albatross Post Number: 489 Registered: 9-2004  |
I wasn't aware that the Constitution specified American citizens as the sole recipients of these rights. I was under the impression that these rights should be guaranteed to all. If not, then what was the purpose of a free Iraq? Plus, you have no idea where these people were picked up. Some of them were certainly on the field of battle, but all? You're a liar if you can tell me with certainty that all these men were picked up on the battlefield. * * * One thing that is not discussed often enough is reciprocity. By that I mean: ARE WE PREPARED TO ACCEPT THE SAME TREATMENT DIRECTED TOWARDS AMERICAN SOLDIERS? I would assume that the answer is no. This is the question: no matter who the criminal, how are we to condemn harsh treatment of American POWs when we have abused prisoners in our custody? Suppose American soldiers are captured by the Iranian military, and torture them for information about U.S. tactics and movements. Would that be acceptable? Because after all, Face:
It is hypocrisy to condone these actions and simultaneously condemn the same against our soldiers. | ||
| Bobkat Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 7567 Registered: 5-2001 |
During WWII we made it a matter of policy to follow the Geneva Conventions to the letter as far as German and Italian POWs were concerned in the hope that the Axis would respond in kind. This went so far as at one prison camp we moved the guards out of barracks and put them in tents because the prison barracks hadn't been completed. Did it work? Only partially. However, I doubt that non-state terrorist organizations are going to give enven lip service to the Accords. Still Al-Qaeda often uses the torture of Iraqi prisoners as an excuse for how they treat Coalition captives. I have no problem with the rough treatment of high level terrorists, up to an including shipping them off to Jordan or Egypt for interogation. However, all to often the people subjected to this treatment are either innocent or ordinary criminals. there was a story in the paper yesterday about a Canadian citizen who was pulled off a plane at JFK, shackled and transfered to either Jordan or Egypt, because his brother may have known an Al Qaeda member. Eventually, after "questioning" he was released when it was concluded he knew nothing. He is suing, and probably correctly. | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 2034 Registered: 5-2001 |
"Torture can be useful in helping to prevent additional attacks." HA! That's rich. We don't have any idea who most of the captives are or what they have or haven't done. But at least if we torture them a bit they might not attack us if they ever get the chance? Who's coming up with your material these days? | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 89 Registered: 2-2004 |
Notey, Your right, we don't as the general public know who these people are, but I guarantee the military does and our intelligence agencies do. I can't understand that people who live and work where you do want these people sent home. How many times do attacks have to happen in your backyard until you realize that these people are gunning for you, specifically. These guys once sent back home aren't gonna just sit around. And they aren't plotting to blow up a cotton or corn field in South Carolina or Nebraska. They are targetting New York and DC because as posters on this board often state - all the smart people and things of interest are located there. | ||
| Albatross Citizen Username: Albatross Post Number: 494 Registered: 9-2004 |
In fact, our military and intellegence agencies know so well that they took, what, 2 years now to discern the innocent from the guilty? People are discharged from Gitmo all the time - surely they wouldn't have been if they were a threat? But they were kept there for not an insubstantial period of time. Stunning efficiency, reflecting a desire for justice. Oh, and if we know for sure who they are and why they're there, why aren't they being prosecuted? Has DoD become the Department of Precrime? None of which has anything to do with mistreatment and torture of these prisoners, of course... and if people have been released because they were not threats, does that mean that innocent people have been tortured? If you wouldn't have it done to our soldiers, don't do it to our prisoners. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 5485 Registered: 1-2003  |
Michael, so as long as we stop JUST SHORT of how the Iraqis act, we don't have to live up to any standard? Southerner, yes, I want the uncharged to be sent home. Why would you have it any other way? I suppose it's hard to imagine YOU being detained or charged with no basis, but the right to be free of that is fundamental to the US. If you don't believe that, what DO you believe to be fundamental here? Why does defense of the adminsitration's actions require forgetting what the country stands for? Or did you really do that badly in school? | ||
| Kramer Citizen Username: Kramer Post Number: 91 Registered: 9-2002 |
was the list of who we should detain in the same report that detailed where the WMDs are? |
