| Author |
Message |
    
AlleyGater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 99
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 10:41 am: | 
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I thought this website was great for helping people see the problems with IE, and to choose a better browser option.
http://browsehappy.com/
I personally choose Mozilla (I LOVE THE Plugin for it called Adblock that let's me block ANY ad from any server -- making my surfing SUPER FAST), but that is because I like the extra features that Firefox doesn't have. Almost everyone else I know uses the pared down Firefox or Safari. |
Marvin Gardens
Citizen
Username: Marvin_gardens
Post Number: 164
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 11:25 am: |
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Explorer lets hackers (read: identity thieves) exploit ASP hooks into the Windows operating system
That's what people get for using an inferior operating system. MAC rules. If all the cheapskates in the world wouldn't have purchased PC's thus making Bill Gates the richest man in the universe, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The funny thing is that every version of Windows tries more and more to look and act like the MAC OS. They've been trying for decades and Windows still sucks.
Once you go MAC, you never go back |
suzanneng
Citizen
Username: Suzanneng
Post Number: 282
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 5:32 pm: |
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I love Safari at home, but I also have IE available for sites that don't work with Safari (like the district's mealpay.com site).
We are only allowed IE at school, which still drives me nuts, since I tend to get all these popups, viruses, etc, without knowing how I got them. (and I can never find the menu option to disable popups -- which is so easy to do with Safari!) |
Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 4995
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 7:04 pm: |
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Dave:
If I sign on to my ISP using IE and then minimize IE, is my computer still vulnerable to attack while IE is running in background? If yes, will my internet security program remain active while IE is in background? |
romatc
Citizen
Username: Romatc
Post Number: 19
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 8:27 pm: |
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Microsoft will release IE 7 this summer with FREE anti virus built in. |
Albatross
Citizen
Username: Albatross
Post Number: 521
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 8:38 pm: |
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Joan: Yes. And it's not just IE; you'd be surprised how many programs running in the background talk to the Internet. They chatter back and forth all the time.
If it's turned on, your security program should be active regardless of IE's status. |
Dave
Moderator
Username: Dave
Post Number: 5341
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 8:46 pm: |
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Joan, the best thing to do is call your ISP's tech support and ask if they have a tutorial online to use a different browser. It must be a common phone call and request by now. |
Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 4996
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 9:10 pm: |
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Albatross:
My point exactly. If IE users do as Dave suggests and leave IE running in background, they gaining nothing in the way of on-line security by switching to another browser for active surfing. |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2090
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 9:22 pm: |
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Thanks much for the link, Mwoodwalk. I downloaded and installed Firefox and am now looking at a PDF of the SO 2005 capital budget. Plus, I can post to discussions for the first time in...more than a year.
As all of you who recommended Firefox have suggested, it's very fast and elegant. Quicker than Netscape.
Thanks again!
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 5601
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 10:20 pm: |
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I think it speaks well of MOLers that only 85% of us use IE. I believe that's a lot lower than the general population of the internet. |
ril
Citizen
Username: Ril
Post Number: 294
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 9:43 am: |
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I bet a lot of people (like me) check MOL from work, and our company (a large multinational) uses IE exclusively. We're not allowed to download and use anything else. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 5608
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 11:43 am: |
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Dave answered for Mac OS. I will answer for Windows.
Joan wrote:
1. Can I have two browsers on my PC at the same time? If so, how do I tell my computer which browser to use?
You can have as many as you like. A browser is a software package, like Quicken. IE won't get insulted when you install Firefox any more than it does when you install Quicken or Photoshop.
2. My ISP presently loads in IE. Will it continue to load if I delete IE from my computer? If not, will using IE just to log on to the internet create the same degree of exposure to identity thefts that using it after sign-on would?
IE is unlike other browsers in that it is more integrated with the OS. It is impracticable and unnecessary to delete IE from Windows. Don't bother trying. Just use Opera or Firefox instead and pretend IE doesn't exist.
What do you mean log onto the internet? If you are talking about comcast, that is an illusion. Your comcast installer set your computer up to give you a login screen, but you don't need it at all. You are always connected to the internet.
3. My computer came with IE. Will I still be able to run the other programs that came with it (especially Microsoft products) that have some on-line functions (such as downloading graphics files for powerpoint, sending e-mails through outlook, or running error reports)? If not (how) can I get around this problem without chucking my Office too?
The other Microsoft products rarely care which browser you use. The only tricky thing is to set the "default browser". This notion is important because you often click on web links that you read in email or Word or other programs. Clicking on those links will invoke your default browser. The goal is for the result to invoke your favorite browser, not Microsoft's favorite. If you poke around the options, you will find a way to set your favorite as the default. If you need help with doing that with a specific browser, I can help. Right now, I'm using an old version of Mozilla.
At other times, rather than starting up IE by clicking on its icon, start up your favorite browser by clicking on its icon. It's that easy.
4. How do I know that the same dangers don't exist with other programs? Could it bee that the IE dangers are just better known and therefore more publicized?
That's tough to answer. In this case, you either have to do a lot of reading, or you have to decide whom to trust for the answers.
IE is better known, which makes it more of a target, even if, all other things being equal, it is just as hard to break into as other browsers. But the Firefox and Opera authors claim that their design is intrinsically more secure.
The inability to visit some websites if you aren't running IE is also a problem which may need to be addressed before more of us are willing to go completely IE-free.
That's true. The good news is that Firefox is starting to enjoy a significant amount of use. It may turn things around enough to make it necessary for web designers to make sure that their sites work with browsers other than IE. The trouble is that Microsoft is very clever. They have a practice of "embrace and extend" which is really nasty. They embrace industry standards, which makes them look like good players. Then they add functionality which you can't live without. This is a way of breaking the standards, but it's too late to object. I remember a few years ago, there were web site building tools that rendered pages that looked just fine with IE but the fonts ended up being eye-strainingly small on other browsers. Nasty! |
Rick B
Citizen
Username: Ruck1977
Post Number: 477
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 1:12 pm: |
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luckily web apps use HTML and other languages that are built around standards. Like Tom said so elegantly, MS might extend a standard and allow IE to render that extended piece of software in its own way. MS also has web development tools that incorporate these little hooks. Bam, your in Bill Gates' world!
As a person who has done a fair amount of web development, the differences in how browsers render the HTML behind what you are seeing can be huge and present numerous challenges. Its easy to code for IE, because thats what IE wants! But check out your site in some other browsers, see what they missed. (please don't look at my site and tell me what I have missed!)
IMHO, sites that only work in IE are taking the easy way out. they are using some functionality inherent to MS products. FrontPage used to throw in so much additional markup (and crap) that a simple web page became very complex behind the scenes. IE lets you get away with poorly constructed code as well. Many elements do not require end tags and can be poorly formed.
As for getting rid of IE, don't get rid of it, if you do, your a fool. Its not your fault that your favorite website has employed techniques that won't work in your favorite browser. My suggestion is, if you have the space, install them all. Otherwise, how will you ever know which works best for you, and the sites you visit regularly? Then, if it doesn't work in your favorite browser, contact their webmaster. No webmaster wants to hear that his code is broken and out there for everyone to see!  |
Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 5000
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 1:48 pm: |
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Tom:
Thanks for answering my questions with such clarity.
Re: Point #2. I use a dial-up connection. The ISP wants to know who I am (ID and password) before it will connect to the internet and once connected, the ISP's home page loads in IE brought to me by the ISP which is brought to me by the computer manufacturer. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 5612
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 1:52 pm: |
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Most likely, your ISP invokes their home page with whatever browser you set to be the default browser. You can probably get it to stop doing this entirely, too and set your home page to whatever you like, even a blank page.
I'm glad I helped. I was wondering if my responses were comprehensible. 
I'm trying out Firefox as my default browser. I've been using Opera as my default for a few years. While I agree that Firefox is worlds better than IE, I still think Opera is even better than Firefox. I'm trying to figure out if it's because I'm just accustomed to Opera. Currently, I can see that Firefox lacks a lot of Opera's features, but I won't list them until I'm fairly sure I'm not prejudiced. |
Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 1474
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 2:15 pm: |
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You can test almost every browser here and check the vulnerability.
http://bcheck.scanit.be/bcheck/index.php
and a spoofing test here:
http://secunia.com/multiple_browsers_idn_spoofing_test/
This site runs tests also, it’s a little slower but it will explain all of the tests and how to fix your settings.
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/BrowserSecurity/
I use IE exclusively, and haven’t had a problem, so the world isn’t actually going to end if you don’t switch. But you should make sure that you keep it updated and have the security settings set correctly.
I like Mac’s but unfortunately they’re not a reasonable solution for what I do at work. So they really aren’t an option. It wouldn’t be feasible to Develop and Test a full system on a Mac and then deploy it on windows (That’s what our clients use). Also the training curve would be to expensive, do I really want people who have worked on windows to switch?
We rarely have clients that want a system to run in FireFox or Modzilla, there just isn’t enough people using it. Why should we spend the money on it?
Hey can those other browsers see my site? www.coreebusiness.com
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Pizzaz
Citizen
Username: Pizzaz
Post Number: 1527
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 5:38 pm: |
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I'd say IE is pretty business standard with large corps. It only becomes more hazardous by the light of a full moon.  |
AlleyGater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 103
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 9:00 pm: |
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Ick!!! Dave is making a big deal about IE's security flaws, but I say fooey! IE is just a bad browser. The worst?
It doesn't have tabbed browsing, it doesn't block pop-up ads, it doesn't allow you to block inline (embedded in the page) ads. It's slow to render pages. Do I need to continue?
People who are using still using IE either, don't know that their are options or how to get them. Or are too lazy to switch.
Firefox and/or Mozilla are a million times better than IE, and that's WITHOUT talking about their security flaws. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2926
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 9:42 pm: |
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Interesting. Microsoft is everywhere and Bill Gates is rich beyond comprehension yet his product is by all accounts above, crap.
This elitist ranting has helped ensure that Bill Gates and not Steve Jobs is the richest man in the world. It is quite a classic business school case study in opportunity lost.
This reminds me a bit of the competitive stereo system era when I was in college where you had some presumably rational people worrying about stereo performance outside the range of the human ear. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 5629
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 12:07 am: |
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tjohn, the world won't come to an end if people don't switch their browsers, but we do notice the difference between browsers, unlike the alloy of the audio cables you use. |
Dave
Moderator
Username: Dave
Post Number: 5354
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 12:24 am: |
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I sounded a lot like tjohn regarding computers in '95, the year before I got a Mac. |
AlleyGater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 106
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 3:05 pm: |
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Who has pity for Steve Jobs? The man is UNBELIEVABLY wealthy (Apple AND Pixar). Once you're that kind of rich, I don't think it really matters who is richer. Yes, I hate MS (cause they make mediocre products and then ram them down our throats), but that has nothing to do with the fact that IE has languished due to lack of support. The application doesn't do any of the things that other more modern browsers do. Just because you want or expect nothing of your web browser doesn't mean that the rest of us should. |
Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 1603
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 3:14 pm: |
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I challenged our head IT guru/hacker to compromise my system... he kept telling me how IE is riddled with security holes and yada yada yada.
I have Macafee firewall and virus.
He couldn't do a thing. Tried for weeks, and that was on our internal network.
Using IE is safer than using a cordless phone.
That being said, I use Firefox... its a better browser. But security has nothing to do with it. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 742
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 3:37 pm: |
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results of test from Brett's post above
scanit.be
Browser Security Test Results
Dear Customer,
The Browser Security Test is finished. Please find the results below:
High Risk Vulnerabilities 0
Medium Risk Vulnerabilities 0
Low Risk Vulnerabilities 0
Using IE 6, WinXP SP1 (not 2) Ran the full gamut of tests (not just the browser specific ones). Do I feel safe? No. But I actualy thought I'd be less safe than this indicates. |
Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 1484
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 3:52 pm: |
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Rastro: I've had a few machines get 2 or 3 Vulnerabilities, so I think the tests are accurate |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 745
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 3:56 pm: |
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Brett, I don't doubt it. I'm actually pleasantly surprised that my system seems to be so secure. My point was that it's still possible to be reasonably secure even using IE. It's not my favorite browser (I use Firefox at home), but it's not the devil's spawn it's often made out to be. |
D.
Moderator
Username: Dave
Post Number: 5504
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Sunday, March 6, 2005 - 7:35 pm: |
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Down to 80% using IE now |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 5721
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 6, 2005 - 7:44 pm: |
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I'd guess that this thread had a lot to do with the reduction.
An MOLer just hired me to do some wireless networking, and I mentioned substituting Firefox and Opera for IE. She was very interested and had read this thread. |
Joe
Citizen
Username: Gonets
Post Number: 721
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 6, 2005 - 9:02 pm: |
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Count me as a poster who switched because of this thread. I actually moved to NS about a month or 2 ago, but then after reading this thread I downloaded Firefox and Opera. I like both of those over IE. The lack of tabbed browsing is what kills IE for me.
NS is a pain in the neck when it comes to using this site. I always get some paranoid pop-up inquiry with each thread I view. Thanks for starting this D. |
Kalani Thielen
Citizen
Username: Kalani
Post Number: 24
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 12:48 pm: |
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I've written my own web browser program, but I've got it reporting its "user-agent" header as IE to prevent websites from locking me out. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 3142
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 7:28 pm: |
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MOLers are way smarter than the average joe. I read a survey today that showed IE with an 89% market share overall. Firefox is growing rapidly, around 1% a month.
IE is vulnerable because it offers so many hooks into the operating system, and the Windows OS is inherently vulnerable to attack. It's also the biggest target around; who's going to bother writing a virus for Sun? It's the easiest thing in the world to let a piece of spyware in using IE, even when you think you're being really safe. A lot of people have ended up throwing away their computer and starting over.
Here's what I do: on my WIndows machines (home and work) I use Firefox. If I get a message that what I want to do requires IE, if I really want/need to do that thing I fire up IE. I do it, then I close out. There are only a couple of places -- and all of them are specialized web-geek applications -- where I can't use Firefox. |
davel
Citizen
Username: Davel
Post Number: 115
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 3:03 pm: |
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I am no fan of IE but Firefox has its problems too. See this excerpt from the free Windows Secrets Newsletter, Issue 49 — 2005.03.10 for instance:
"Upgrading to Firefox 1.0.1
By Brian Livingston
The Mozilla Foundation, the group responsible for developing the Firefox browser and many other applications, released Firefox 1.0.1, a security upgrade for Firefox 1.0, on Feb. 24. Firefox's "check for updates" feature was then enabled by the foundation several days later on Mar. 1.
Since the 1.0.1 upgrade eliminates 17 bugs, some of which are potential security holes, I issued a short, plain-text newsletter update on Mar. 3 recommending that all Windows users install it.
At that time, one known issue with the upgrade affected people who'd obtained Firefox 1.0 via a special .zip file instead of an auto-installing .exe file. Running the .exe version over the .zip version makes Firefox prone to crashing when pressing Enter in the address bar. So I urged people in this situation to uninstall Firefox before running the 1.0.1 setup file. Other people had reported good results running the 1.0.1 upgrade without uninstalling 1.0 first.
Since that time, several readers have reported to me some incompatibilities when 1.0.1 is installed over 1.0. For this reason, I now feel that uninstalling 1.0 first is the safest choice." And on it goes. |
AlleyGater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 170
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 7:19 pm: |
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What are these problems davel?
Your message just goes to show how responsible the Firefox team is at responding to security issues. If IE was that responsive people wouldn't be complaining about how insecure and crappy it is. |
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