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Maple Man
Citizen
Username: Mapleman
Post Number: 511
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 2:11 pm: | 
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quote:No, that wasn't the point I made. The point was the only way to verify Saddam's claims that there wasn't a gathering threat of WMDs was by going in.
OK, now you're just being contentious. You keep saying that's not what you said - and then proceed to say it again.
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 3222
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 2:38 pm: |
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Maple Man, your quote was:
"In other words, we needed to invade in order to gather the evidence that we didn't need to invade in order to disarm Iraq."
We needed to invade to gather evidence that he had WMD in Iraq, or not, or moved them. We still don't know what happened to them. It's the twist at the end of your statement that is where I disagree. And the reasons for war weren't confined to the question of WMD.
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ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 3395
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 2:51 pm: |
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"We still don't know what happened to them."
Hey! THere's Haley's comet! |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 4401
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 3:08 pm: |
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Maple Man: You fail to understand the Iraq invasion decision tree:
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Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7804
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 3:12 pm: |
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Cjc, I am talking about the early days of the war when the 172nd(?) Parachute Regiment moved south out of Kurdistan into Mosul. This was long before the insurgency got underway.
So far, given Iraq's history, I am not all that optomistic that they will be any more "civilized" than the folks the former Yugoslavia once the US withdraws its troops. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 550
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 4:29 pm: |
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I'm surprised that we didn't invade Russia for some of the same purported reasons we used for the invasion of Iraq.
With the fall of the Soviet Union a few years ago now, a number of WMD from there went missing god knows where, and the controls the old Soviet Union had on the WMD seem to have gone out the window.
Those WMD constitute a great, if latent, threat to us all, but we never invaded Russia to ensure that the weapons were all accounted for.
Anybody have any ideas why? Is it because a couple of years ago GWB "looked into Putin's soul"? A week or two, GWB could barely look at Putin eye to eye.
But then I am probably missing something in this picture. |
dave23
Citizen
Username: Dave23
Post Number: 188
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 5:00 pm: |
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MJ, touche. (However, P. Goss would disagree with your assessment of his work.) |
Maple Man
Citizen
Username: Mapleman
Post Number: 512
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 6:53 pm: |
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Nohero,
yup, Joseph Heller would have loved the Iraq invasion decision tree.
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Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 555
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 8:05 pm: |
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GWB had to step in today to pull Porter Goss's feet out of the cow patties, after Goss loudly complained that the job is overwhelming him, it's ambiguous, and he really isn't sure whom he's supposed to report to (since Negroponte obviously is still "ambassadoring" in Iraq until his confirmation).
Nice confident feeling I get from this administration, its appointees, its direction, and its priorities, or lack thereof. |
SO Refugee
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 26
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 4, 2005 - 9:37 pm: |
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This going back and forth over verbiage reminded me of the glory days of Clintonspeak with my favorite all-time quote:
(use your Bubba accent here)
"That depends on what the definition of the word "is" is?" |
Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 1455
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 4, 2005 - 9:54 pm: |
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The occupation force has now reached the stage where it shoots escaped hostages by accident. It's a step up from beating people to death in prison camps, but not by much.
quote:BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- U.S. soldiers attempted to warn the occupants of a car carrying a freed Italian journalist before troops opened fire, killing a bodyguard and wounding the reporter, multinational officials said Friday night.
Giuliana Sgrena, a 56-year-old reporter for the leftist Italian newspaper Il Manifesto, and three Italian security officers were in a car headed to Baghdad International Airport when they approached a checkpoint, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said. (Full story)
Nicola Calipari was shielding Sgrena when he was killed, Berlusconi said.
Berlusconi said Sgrena had shrapnel in her left shoulder, and U.S. military officials said she was taken to a military hospital.
One agent was seriously wounded, and the other was shot in the leg and refused to go to a hospital, Italian news agencies reported.
President Bush called Berlusconi on Friday night from Air Force One to express his regrets and pledge a full investigation.
According to a multinational forces statement, the car approached the checkpoint at high speed about 9 p.m. (1 p.m. ET)
U.S. troops "attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car," the statement said. "When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block, which stopped the vehicle."
Sgrena was kidnapped February 4 outside a mosque in Baghdad. Italian officials did not say how she was freed Friday.
Berlusconi said the two other people in the car contacted his office after the incident.
"They were in disbelief at the fatality at the end of a brilliantly concluded operation," he said.
Berlusconi said though that effort was "concluded positively," the death of Calipari, who was married with two children, brings grief.
"Something that was a joy for all of us ... that I believe brought us all happiness, had to be transformed to a profound sadness for the loss of a person that had behaved ... with valor," he said.
Berlusconi said he called U.S. Ambassador Mel Sembler to his office in Rome for an explanation of the shooting. He said Sembler will have to "clarify" the behavior of the troops.
"Someone will have to take responsibility," he said.
From cnn.com. |
SO Refugee
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 29
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 4, 2005 - 10:02 pm: |
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What was it that Bush said:
"Terrorists never stop searching for ways to harm America and neither do we."
I guess that goes for our standing in the world view as well. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 2102
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 5:45 pm: |
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Does anyone else feel we are on a collision course with Iran's nuclear weapons? (Bush maintains Iran is working on these weapons.) Is he trying to scare us? Why are we drawn like magnets to nuclear confrontation? Is it because Bush is something of a millenarian, and thinks the end is near and we will all go to heaven (except, of course, people who disagree with him?) Why do we demand Iran to divest itself of nuclear weapons while we bolster our arsenal? Can someone tell me? Does Bush want armegeddon before he leaves office, and why is he looking like he does? This recent appointment to the UN, Bolton, the hawk...what's the point? |
Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 1468
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 8:21 pm: |
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Many Christian fundamentalists - and Bush supporters - are in favor of nuclear war, since they believe they will be rewarded in heaven when they die.
There's an obvious risk that the Bush chickenhawks will play to this audience and take us beyond the point of no return. |
SO Refugee
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 70
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 8:31 pm: |
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So there's not much difference from the fundamental Christian viewpoint of heavenly reward and the fundamental Islamic viewpoint of paradise...a MANDATE vs. a FATWAH.
Pure insanity... |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 3256
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 11:10 am: |
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"Many Christian fundamentalists - and Bush supporters - are in favor of nuclear war, since they believe they will be rewarded in heaven when they die. "
Really Monty? Can you give me some figures and quotes backing up the assertion that "many" Christians are keen on a nuclear war? |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 2136
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 11:23 am: |
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"Fundamentalists" is, I think, the key word there. Not "Christians." |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 3257
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 12:03 pm: |
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Fine, notehead. Show me stories, quotes or evidence that 'many' Christian fundamentalists are jazzed about nuclear war then! |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 1097
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 12:06 pm: |
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It's estimated that about 15 million U.S. Christians believe the rapture is upon us - and most of them are looking forward to it because it will bring their eternal reward. This is a small % of the U.S. population overall, but because they tend to be concentrated in several states and they strongly supported Bush, they have a disproportionate influence.
that's not to say they are "jazzed" about nuclear war, but they are happy about the end of the world, however it's brought about. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 3258
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 12:15 pm: |
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Who estimated that? |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 1098
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 12:35 pm: |
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you could go to www.raptureready.com to find out more about the Rapture Index from people who believe in it, but their site seems to be down right now. |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 1099
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 12:45 pm: |
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I believe the estimates are based on such things as the number of people who buy and subscribe to "Left Behind" books and publications. The "Left Behind" series of books has sold about 65 million, so 15 million believers seems a reasonable estimate.
Also, about 50 million Americans belong to churches who teach the Book Of Revelation as literal truth, so it's not a stretch to imagine that some proportion of those church's members believe that the prophecies are at hand. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 3259
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 12:56 pm: |
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We've got "believe" and "imagine" going on here. If that's the currency, then we can safely state with certitude:
"Many Christian fundamentalists - and Bush supporters - are in favor of nuclear war..." -- Montagnard
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Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 1100
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 1:55 pm: |
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you can take out the words "believe" and "imagine" and just go with the fact that the "Left Behind" series has sold 65 million books. Somebody's buying them.
who knows, maybe they're all sold to skeptics who buy them for a laugh. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 2103
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 4:50 pm: |
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Don't Christian fundamentalists believe that, if we all die in a great apocolypse that it will be "the judgement day," and that our sins will be washed away? Haven't I heard that on "Christian" radio programs? Isn't that "the prophesy?" Do Bush and his fundamentalist supporters want to avoid apocolypse, or do they believe that there's a "land of milk and honey on the other side," so all will be well no matter what happens? I hope I sound naive, but the chilling thought occurs to me, if we're all going to be OK in heaven, why bother to keep the peace here on Earth?
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Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 640
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 4:58 pm: |
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Tulip:
What you refer to is fairly explicit in the "Left Behind" series of "novels" that have been far right Christian best sellers for years and earned their authors some $35 million in royalties from the books, to say nothing of the video/dvd and other tie-ins.
Nothing like a little fantasizing about Armageddon to get your fundamentalist blood flowing. Scares the crap out of me personally.
It's a little bit like having a far right version of Charles Manson and his loopy group but on an almost cosmic, galactic level. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 2104
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 5:02 pm: |
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Amen, Hallelujah, indeed!
Really scary.
It means passions govern, not rational thought.
After the sociopolitical and economic reasons of oil, hegemony and maintenance of supremacy, this war is about (1) fundamentalist "go for God and glory values" (2) guilt by association, as in "We went there because they were LIKE the people who attacked us" and (3) revenge, all hiding behind a dramatic act of righteous indignation over the Kurdish massacre.*
*We have already killed many more women and children as had Hussein, a fact that has often been pointed out on the Message Board.
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