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Mike Gallagher
Citizen
Username: Mikegagagaga
Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 12:08 pm: | 
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This essay should be a must read for everyone who believes in separation of church and state. The author is Robert Paul Reyes (rreyes4966@aol.com). This article was published by menwnewsdaily.com
AMERICA IS NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION
America is a Christian nation and it was founded on Christian principles. This is the Big Lie that is constantly being uttered from fundamentalist pulpits. This untruth has been repeated so often, that most Christians believe that Jesus Christ was one of the Founding Fathers of our great nation.
This was not true when America was founded more than two centuries ago, and it's certainly not true today ;America is one of the most religiously diverse nations on the planet. It's this ethnic, religious and political diversity that's our greatest strength; religious polarization can only weaken our union.
If fundamentalists lie about this important matter -- they shouldn't be believed when they wax indignant on moral and spiritual matters. America is not a Christian nation; abortion is not murder; feminists are not witches; abstinence-only sex education does not work; SpongeBob and Tinky Winky are not gay (not that there is anything wrong with being homosexual); and George W. Bush does not have a direct line to the Almighty.
Our nation was founded not on Christian principles but on Enlightenment ideals.The intellectual leaders who created America believed that human reason could be used to combat ignorance, superstition and tyranny ; they had a natural animosity toward organized religion. It's not surprising that God is only a footnote in the grand documents that are the bedrock of our democracy.
The Constitution makes no mention whatever of any deity. In the eighty-five essays that make up The Federalist Papers, the Supreme Being is mentioned only twice. In the Declaration of Independence, the Big Guy gets two brief nods: A reference to "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God," and the often quoted line about men being "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights."
If the Founding Fathers were Christians and they wanted to establish a Christian nation, then why didn't they mention Jesus Christ even once in a document that they knew would be the cornerstone and foundation of the emerging democracy? That's like Marx writing the "Communist Manifesto" without mentioning "socialism".
The distinguished leaders of the American revolution were not devout individuals, and they fought energetically to erect, in Thomas Jefferson's immortal words, "a wall of separation between church and state."
If we define a Christian as a believer in the divinity of Jesus Christ, then most of the leading lights of the American Revolution were not Christians at all. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and Tom Paine were deists -- they believed in one Supreme Being but rejected revelation and all the supernatural elements of evangelical Christianity. John Adams was a professed liberal Unitarian; in his published writings he seemed more deist than Christian. In other words if these gentlemen were alive today, they would be more at home in a liberal Presbyterian congregation than at Jerry Falwell's Thomas Road Baptist Church.
It's latter-day interlopers who have breached the wall of separation between church and state. In God We Trust" did not appear on our coinage until the Civil War, and "under God" was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance during the McCarthy hysteria in 1954.
If we really want to abide by the spirit of the Constitution and The Declaration of Independence -- we will put an end to all this foolishness about bringing back God into our public schools. Those who imagine a Christian America would be paradise, would be well advised to consider the theocracies of Iran, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan under the Taliban.
Ironically, as our nation becomes less Christian and more religiously diverse, evangelicals redouble their efforts to make America more Christian.
Everyone who loves democracy and freedom must fight the efforts of fundamentalists to tear down the wall of separation between church and state. Jesus Christ may reign supreme in evangelical churches, but He should be kicked to the curb if He tries to scale the wall of separation and enter the political arena.
America is not a Christian nation. America is not a Christian nation. America is not a Christian nation. God, it feels good telling the truth. I may be a "little voice crying in the wilderness", but with the truth on my side, I will defeat a lie -- no matter how big.
Robert Paul Reyes
rreyes4966@aol.com
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Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 529
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 3:19 pm: |
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I don't mean to be ironic, but I say "amen" to the article. Our republic has a fundamental set of ideas, one of them being separation of church and state.
Speaking as an independent-minded Catholic, I am distressed at the way the boundaries between church and state have been eroded during the past 15 years, and the erosion, like beach erosion during a hurricane, is aggressive and vicious.
I have lived for a long time (15 years) in countries which have state churches, and I never felt the encroachment of religious self-righteousness and "faith-based influence" that I have been increasingly feeling in the US.
What I object to, in addition to that encroachment, is the lack of intellectual rigour and critical thinking in many of the purveyors of this religious self-righteousness whose comments I hear and whose articles, editorials, and other writings I have had the chance to read.
Scary it is, unsettling, and taking us in a wrong direction. IMHO. |
overtaxdalready
Citizen
Username: Overtaxdalready
Post Number: 352
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 3:26 pm: |
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Please list a few concrete examples of how the boundries between church and state "have been eroded during the past 15 years".
Thanks. |
LibraryLady(ncjanow)
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 2246
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 3:46 pm: |
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Allowing public monies to fund "faith based" inititives", for one off the top of my head. |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 4683
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 4:51 pm: |
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Does anyone have any data on how many christian fundamentalists are here in the US?
I have never seen a CF, except for the idiots on TV.
LL,
What faith based initiatives receive public money? |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 4687
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 5:07 pm: |
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"Conservatively estimated, there are at least 30 million Christian fundamentalists in the U.S. alone. Fundamentalism stands with Pentecostalism as the most successful religious movements of the 20th century."
http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:n4jfVySKnqYJ:religiousmovements.lib.virgini a.edu/nrms/fund.html+how+many+christian+fundamentalists+are+in+the+US&hl=en
YUCK! I had no idea there were so many! Yikes. |
sac
Supporter
Username: Sac
Post Number: 1852
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 6:42 pm: |
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Re "In other words if these gentlemen were alive today, they would be more at home in a liberal Presbyterian congregation than at Jerry Falwell's Thomas Road Baptist Church. "
I strongly agree with the basic tenet of the entire article, including the statement above as written. However, I would point out that even "liberal" Presbyterian churches ARE Christian and I'm pretty sure that the (Presbyterian) Book of Order requires profession of belief in Jesus Christ as a condition of membership, so they might not be COMPLETELY comfortable with that (albeit MORE comfortable with it than with Jerry Falwell's church.) |
Case
Citizen
Username: Case
Post Number: 5
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 7:17 pm: |
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Of course, having a president that apparently wants to keep his 'relationship with God' on an even keel is kind of interesting, too. I wonder if W would be against abortion of one of his party-girl daughters got knocked up? |
Strawman
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 4599
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 7:23 pm: |
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boring.. |
Reflective
Citizen
Username: Reflective
Post Number: 773
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 9:53 pm: |
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innisowen
I am not sure what an "independent-minded Catholic" is.
However, as a christian protestant and american, I deeply respect your religious views.
My reading of the Constitution is that the founders wanted religion freely practiced. They did not want a state religion, such as the Church of England. It was a major problem then and people were severely punished for not belonging.
Your worldly experience with state religions sounds grand. But why is it that in numerous mideastern and african countries, catholics and christians are not welcome participants by the islamic clerics and their thugs who rape, kill and enslave non-believers.
Lastly, Supreme Court Judge Hugo Black, a Ku Klux Klansman, and deeply suspicious of the catholic church in america started this foolishness about separation of church and state. It's foolish because there is no intent to establish a state religion.
Speaking of the Constitution, it is also not unconstitutional to make someone feel uncomfortable, such as by the playing of religious music.
Ironically, our Constitution with our freedom of speech almost deliberatively insures that almost all of us will feel uncomfortable from time to time.
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SO Refugee
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 10
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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The irony is that CFs (I am a reformed CF myself) are generally guided to support Supreme Court judges who are, supposedly, strict in their interpretations of the Constitution and, therefore, are led to believe that the Constitution might as well be slipped in right between Revelations and the concordance. |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 4372
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 11:03 pm: |
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Reflective: While you may not be "sure what an 'independent-minded Catholic' is", I often find myself in that category. A fact that I always find interesting is that the Catholic school system (of which I am a graduate) was started because at one time there was not enough "separation of church and state".
So, no matter what Justice Black's religious views may have been, there is a very healthy religious point of view that "separation of church and state" is beneficial for religion, for all religions, and is not "anti-religion" at all. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 538
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 11:54 pm: |
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Reflective:
What I mean by saying that I am an independent-minded Catholic is that I received a Catholic education, including several years in a Jesuit seminary, and was given enough discipline in critical thinking to refuse to let a priest with a white skullcap, palace in Rome and bulletproof limo do my thinking for me. Is that plain enough?
Besides, I think that you and I might agree on things. I mentioned my experience living in European countries that have state churches (Denmark, Sweden) because it shocks me that our current administration seems to be creating the kind of uncomfortable and doctrinaire linkages between state and church that I expected to experience in Denmark and Sweden but never did, in my 15 years in that part of the world. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7750
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 4:52 am: |
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I think Mr. Reyes misses a few points in his little diatribe.
A great many of the people who came to our shores in colonial times were religious refugees. Puritans in New England, Quakers and Mennonites in Pennsiylvania, Catholics in Maryland,Jews, Bapitsts, Anabaptists, etc. Jefferson and some of the other founding fathers were more Deists than anything else, others were more classically religious. I believe the head of the New Jersey delegation to the meeting that resulted in the Declaration of Independence was a clergyman.
The intention of the the framers of the Constitution was to recognize these differences and not allow the formation of a state religion. I don't think they intended to eliminate religion from our government. Unfortunately at this time a minority of fundementalist Christians believe that it is there duty to impose their believes on the rest of us and for purely political reasons (votes) the current administration is encouraging them.
My wife and most of her family instead of calling themselves independent minded Catholics, just where the term "Cafeteria Catholic" proundly. 
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knak
Citizen
Username: Knak
Post Number: 105
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 7:51 am: |
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Re "In other words if these gentlemen were alive today, they would be more at home in a liberal Presbyterian congregation than at Jerry Falwell's Thomas Road Baptist Church. "
They could still be Unitarians... |
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