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Local_1_crew
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 438
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 4, 2005 - 9:31 pm: | 
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again, a specious argument. you are just being silly and its beneath you. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 581
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 4, 2005 - 9:33 pm: |
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I think it's quite to the point... if you're taking responsibility for yourself and preparing for the future, why not do it out of whole cloth? |
Local_1_crew
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 439
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 4, 2005 - 9:37 pm: |
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Sure pal. If you pay up, you'll be comfortable.
Now that the AARP's become a gay marriage outfit, we have to start getting creative about our pension plans. Hey, we might even trash your house just for fun.
i dont get this at all. sorry.
i have noticed a sorry trend on this board that when anybody disagrees, even in a non-combative and cognizant manner, with the prevailing liberal bent that alot of you become defensive and personal rather than engage in adult debate.
i am not a republican nor a democrat and my views tend toward the original purpose and meaning of the constitution. i am against the entitlement society that we have become. i am willing to argue this with anybody but i am sorry if my opinion is one that makes some of you decide to take personal shots and specious statements. |
Local_1_crew
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 440
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 4, 2005 - 9:41 pm: |
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I think it's quite to the point... if you're taking responsibility for yourself and preparing for the future, why not do it out of whole cloth?
i think that government should not subsidize buses , trains, farmers, etc. the free market system will deal with that if its allowed to. i use the train because it is there. it is the prevailing system, i help pay for it, so i am going to use it. i would love for the gov't to stop subsidizing it. a private company will make transportation available, with better service, and with profitability. |
SO Refugee
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 27
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 4, 2005 - 9:48 pm: |
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L1C -
I'm going with Chris on this one. If you're gonna make cuts, you have to start with the rich who can afford to invest in their retirement. Most poor and lower middle class are living paycheck to paycheck not because of their choice, but because they have not way out of the cycle. I don't know your background, but getting out of poverty ain't no easy thing. If someone has to decide whether putting 5% of their paycheck (albeit of close to minimum wage) into a 401(k) or feeding their kids...they're gonna choose the kids every time. |
Chris Prenovost
Citizen
Username: Chris_prenovost
Post Number: 374
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 4, 2005 - 10:04 pm: |
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Innisowen, So Refugee:
Nice to know there is still some common sense in this neck of the woods. |
Local_1_crew
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 443
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 4, 2005 - 10:08 pm: |
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so people who have managed to work hard and move up in the world should have to pay a penalty for their efforts? why are wealthy people more responsible for others? according to you guys the next logical step would be the redistribution of wealth so that every one is on equal footing. hmmmm, i think there is a name for that but it escapes me at the moment. |
SO Refugee
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 31
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 4, 2005 - 10:16 pm: |
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L1C -
You are obviously stingy with your capital since you never use CAPITALS.
I'm sorry that I think everyone should have a fair chance, but I guess my mama raised me that way. I don't think you should be penalized; however, in your caste system, who bails you out if your finances go awry? Would you file for unemployment if you lost your job? How many jobs would you work so that you could scratch out a retirement? There are crooks on both ends of the economic scale (doesn't that include Lyndon LaRoche?), but lots of good people in between. That's who we need to focus on. If you don't need help ever in life, well congratulations. |
Local_1_crew
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 445
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 4, 2005 - 11:48 pm: |
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who is john galt? |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 3135
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 4, 2005 - 11:50 pm: |
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Private companies have run the commuter rail systems in the past, and they couldn't make it work. They were going bankrupt, so the government needed to step in to make the service happen. To paraphrase Lincoln, government provides for the public what they can't provide themselves. Anyway, why should more profitability be desirable for a transit system? You WANT to pay more in fares?
NJ Transit provides about 1,000,000 rides per business day, which translates into roughly 500,000 more cars in Manhattan clogging the tunnel approaches were they to go away. I don't care how big your stretch limo is, or whether you even ride one, but you benefit hugely from not having to wait behind an extra half-million cars on your way to work in the morning. Therefore, you get to help subsidize it.
It's romantic, I know, to fancy that you're an independent entity making your own decisions and taking your own consequences; but it really doesn't work that way in tightly interlocked society like ours.
[People who move up don't pay a penalty, as far as the social security system goes; after the first $90,000 you're exempt.] |
Local_1_crew
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 446
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 4, 2005 - 11:57 pm: |
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Anyway, why should more profitability be desirable for a transit system? You WANT to pay more in fares?
i am sure by slimming the transit authority bloat and breaking up the lines into smaller sections independently run, costs could go down quite alot and fares would not need to be raised. if they became privately run the market would create a profitable way to operate them. where there is demand there will be supply.
People who move up don't pay a penalty, as far as the social security system goes; after the first $90,000 you're exempt.]
i know this. i was referencing someones reply on the matter. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 584
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 9:07 am: |
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Local 1 Crew--
"i think that government should not subsidize buses , trains, farmers, etc. the free market system will deal with that if its allowed to..." etc.
It sure would be nice to live in the world you fantasize about. But I just can't get myself to drink that Kool-Aid.
What we see in operation in this country during the past few years is "free market" gone amok. Take the example of U.S. airlines; they have been de-regulated for years: what's been the result?
Most of the current majors are in, have been in, or are close to being in, Chapter 11. That, despite the fact that we have record numbers of people flying for business or for pleasure. Those airlines have been receiving giant government subsidies to pull them through re-org, while their senior executives have been stockpiling bonuses, options, sweet private deals, as add-ons to their compensation, while cutting back the pay of the people who make the airlines operate day-to-day.
At the same time, anyone who flies regularly, (And I have racked up about 3 and a half Million miles of air travel in the past 15 years, so I know whereof I speak) will tell you that service, quality, dependability, ease of travel all have deteriorated significantly during the past 10 years.
So much for the free market in transportation as it applies to the US airline industry. |
Meandtheboys
Citizen
Username: Meandtheboys
Post Number: 267
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 9:15 am: |
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Here's hoping L1C never becomes catastrophically ill, thus losing his/her job because he/she is no longer able to work, thus losing his/her home because he/she can't pay off the second mortage he/she was forced to take, after using up all his/her retirement savings, to pay the hospital bills insurance stopped paying when the policy was maxed out.
It'll be very hard to get by without taking help from anyone then!
Just an observation. |
Local_1_crew
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 447
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 12:01 pm: |
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What we see in operation in this country during the past few years is "free market" gone amok. Take the example of U.S. airlines; they have been de-regulated for years: what's been the result?
Most of the current majors are in, have been in, or are close to being in, Chapter 11. That, despite the fact that we have record numbers of people flying for business or for pleasure. Those airlines have been receiving giant government subsidies to pull them through re-org, while their senior executives have been stockpiling bonuses, options, sweet private deals, as add-ons to their compensation, while cutting back the pay of the people who make the airlines operate day-to-day.
how is this an example of the free market system when they receive gov't subsidies? without the subsidies there would be a time of turmoil and then a new airline industry would emerge, self sufficient, and profitable. how do i know this? the simple law of supply and demand. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 591
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 12:26 pm: |
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It's your free market government that has given subsidies to the airlines willingly, at their request. It's a free market system, if you have the leverage and the connections.
I am tempted to say, but I won't, something about the word "simple" in your last sentence above.
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Local_1_crew
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 448
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 1:30 pm: |
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first of all its not "my" free market gov't. i didnt vote for the boob. also, you misunderstand what a free market gov't is if you think giving subsidies is part of free market thinking. subsidies are in direct opposition to a free market policy.
your inability to debate this with any applicable facts is demonstrated by your need to use the above implied insult.
personal attacks are the crutch of the ill informed. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 593
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 2:23 pm: |
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Hmmm, and constant whining that posters don't always make arguments on YOUR terms are the sign of ....? I wonder what...
Well, enough of that. I understand the free market that you envision, and it is a good one, but it is just that, a vision. It doesn't exist, has not existed, and probably won't exist, and all the propagandizing and musing out loud about it, won't make it happen. It's an ideal state, and we, believe me, are far from an ideal state.
I prefer to deal with reality, evaluate it objectively, and make my own decisions. |
Local_1_crew
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 450
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 2:30 pm: |
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the argument of the apathetic and defeatist.
and no whining, just the truth about your "debate" technique. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 595
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 2:37 pm: |
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You don't get it, do you?
This isn't a debate forum. This entire website is a bunch of postings, with some logic and some randomness. Like a conversation, it evolves, changes, moves.
Do you think for one moment this is all real debate?
Get back on the planet, man. |
Local_1_crew
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 451
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 3:13 pm: |
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you try to debate on the subject, end up having to resort to personal attacks due to a lack of a coherent grasp of the situation, and now try to backpedal with a comment on the posting style of the board. sad.
you may continue without me while i wait for someone of substance to discuss this with
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SO Refugee
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 37
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 8:59 pm: |
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L1C -
How is it that when someone disagrees with you it's a personal attack, but you don't apply the same rule to yourself when you lash out at others. Just like your theory of economics...you always have to point the finger at someone else. |
Local_1_crew
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 452
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 9:10 pm: |
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i make no personal comments until they are used on me. i respond in kind because it seems this is the way the person communicates. my economic theories are the opposite of finger pointing. my beliefs are not "hey! its your fault", they are ," hey! its up to me to do it or its my fault and no one elses.". my politics are the politics of personal responsibility and the antithesis of the entitlement society.
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Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 1457
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 10:07 pm: |
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On the contrary, you are a free rider on the efforts of others, and too dishonest to admit it.
Your "property rights" only have meaning because we have collectively supported institutions like the Land Registry, the banking system (heavily regulated and insured by the Federal government since the widespread collapses of the Thirties), the Stock Exchange (regulated by the SEC and now subject to Sarbanes-Oxley).
You are protected by police that are paid for through taxes, and by a court system that allows you (in essence) to enlist the help of others in getting back property that has been taken from you.
Stop the hypocritical whining and put up your fair share of what it costs to run our society. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 3136
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 5, 2005 - 11:01 pm: |
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continuing to beat the transit drum...
The business of this region is adding value and knowledge. The financial system moves cash to the areas where it will be most useful. The publishing system spreads information widely. Manufacturing takes raw materials and adds value at every step along the way. And all along the way people are making a huge amount of money.
What's necessary for all of this to work is for people to be able to get to work. It's no more necessary or useful for someone to make a profit on mass transit than it is for someone to make a profit on stoplights. It's part of the infrastructure that lets the population do real work. It has nothing to do with entitlement or personal responsibility, and it benefits more than just the people who ride it. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 596
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 6, 2005 - 12:36 am: |
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Folks, I think it's very hard, if not impossible, to penetrate layers of indoctrination. And may be a little bit like shoveling the snow we've had this winter: when July comes, what have you got to show for it? |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 1768
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 6, 2005 - 10:44 am: |
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Tom: Very well put. It seems like some people just don't get it. Every method of transportation is subsidized including those who use automobiles. Maintaining highways and local streets, policing those roads, improving the roads, etc are all paid for with tax dollars. If each motorist had to pay their fair share each motorist would have to double their registration fees and pay another 10 cents/gallon in gasoline taxes (the numbers come from a study done in Trenton). That would just cover the highways without tolls. Trains are the most efficient method of mass transit and we should encourage more spending on the rail lines, not less. |
Local_1_crew
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 454
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 6, 2005 - 11:11 am: |
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i am not asking for the abolishment of trains. just for the privatization of the system. |
Carrie Avery
Citizen
Username: Carrie33
Post Number: 172
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 6, 2005 - 11:16 am: |
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MROSNER SAID:
"....Trains are the most efficient method of mass transit and we should encourage more spending on the rail lines, not less"
I think someday trains will be the only way to go for many reasons. If 'mono-rails' become part of our future we could benefit in all areas., economics and history dictates the wave of the future. If you remember that we had trains before other modes of transportation, it looks like it can make our lives much more efficient. I am sure there are arguments to the contrary, this is only my opinion, and something to think about. |
ML
Supporter
Username: Ml1
Post Number: 2320
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 6, 2005 - 11:44 am: |
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I'm a proponent of rail travel, but before we have heavy reliance on it for commuting one thing needs to change first. The sprawl of businesses along suburban corridors like Rts 78 and 287 makes rail travel impractical. Trains are good at getting people in and out of large hubs like NY, Newark, Hoboken, etc.
Unless we can empty all those suburban office parks around the country, and move those businesses into center cities, mass transit won't be practical for 90% of commuters in this country. |
Carrie Avery
Citizen
Username: Carrie33
Post Number: 174
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 6, 2005 - 11:49 am: |
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ML: Someday, far into the future, my guess would be just that: Center cities would be the only hub for business. The suburban parks will gone.
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Local_1_crew
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 456
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 6, 2005 - 2:55 pm: |
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You are protected by police that are paid for through taxes, and by a court system that allows you (in essence) to enlist the help of others in getting back property that has been taken from you.
i have commented on this point more than once. please read back in the thread for my response.
Stop the hypocritical whining and put up your fair share of what it costs to run our society.
i have never said that i didnt think i should pay for the upkeep of our society. i just dont think i should pay to support those who havent taken responsibility for their own lives.
if i want to donate to a charity, i will. i shouldnt be forced to do it at gunpoint, and to a charity not of my choosing.} |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 2121
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 7, 2005 - 2:47 pm: |
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Local, how do you differentiate between those who have taken responsibility for their lives from those who haven't? |
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