| Author | Message | ||
     Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 455 Registered: 9-2004 |
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| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 256 Registered: 2-2003 |
Michael, I guarantee you Oliver North doesn't have the guts to face Scott Ritter in public. Just like Scott's detractors on this message board. I challenge you to organize a debate between Oliver North and Scott Ritter. You line up North, I'll get Ritter. But North will never do it. Even for the money he wouldn't do it. Prove me wrong. | ||
| Michael Janay Citizen Username: Childprotect Post Number: 1646 Registered: 1-2003  |
I'll debate Ritter. I'll seriously try to get North. But Ask your boy if he'll do it before you talk. There is no way Ritter has the guts to debate North (I doubt he has the guts to debate me in a face to face real debate) The clock cleaning Ollie would give him would diminish Ritters value as a speaker for the rest of his life. Me, I'm a nobody He shouldn't be threatened by me. Seriously, I'm not kidding. I will debate Ritter. It'll be a good show. I can get others, I have a contact to Steve Malzberg, and Sean Hannity (though I don't think either of those two are good debaters). Hannity Vs. Ritter would be a steel cage match. We could charge major admission. What a show it would be. But I seriously doubt that Scotty boy would come near either of them. | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 257 Registered: 2-2003 |
Michael, Ritter was there on Tuesday prepared to face you or anyone else who wanted to challenge him. You knew it and you didn't show up. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 13302 Registered: 10-2001  |
You needed a bigger place. | ||
| LibraryLady(ncjanow) Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 2266 Registered: 5-2001  |
And that was only with opponents of the Administration. Still there was plenty of room if Michael wanted to come. I would of even given him my seat  | ||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 1853 Registered: 6-2003 |
Looks like the armchair warriors not only prefer fighting wars from the comfort of their couches but prefer a debate at the end of a mouse and keyboard. Cmon fellas, you really expect us to believe that all you Neo-Cons ready to do battle with Ritter, "forgot"?. I expect this from MSO's own Rupert Pupkin but the others surprised me. | ||
| Parkbench87 Citizen Username: Parkbench87 Post Number: 1792 Registered: 7-2001  |
Ollie North give a clock cleaning? Wasn't he the guy who lost in his run for a Virgina Senate seat? I guess he was low on clock cleaning ability back then. Sean Hannity, Steve Malzberg? C'mon. These guys represent the WWF wing of the conservative movement. Ollie is a assclown. Read what a bonafide military person has to say about Ollie. http://www.airborne-ranger.com/ranger/wannabees/OllieNorth.html ___________________________________________________________ David Hackworth on Oliver North Source: Playboy, June 1994 v41 n6 p90(5). Title: Drugstore marine. (Oliver North) Author: David Hackworth Abstract: North's career shows an undeniable streak of deceit and misuse of the trust of colleagues and the American public. His most significant betrayal was engineering the trade of arms to Iran for US hostages. North would become a threat if he were to succeed in a bid for the Senate. Subjects: Political corruption - Cases People: North, Oliver L. - Moral and ethical aspects Gov Agncy: United States. Marine Corps - Officials and employees Electronic Collection: A15456160 RN: A15456160 Full Text COPYRIGHT Playboy 1994 LET ME TRY to describe Oliver North in a few fast bursts. He's a jackass. He is so preposterous that there is a temptation to laugh at him. He's smarmy, a flatter, a brownnoser. He's also a twisted impostor, a drugstore Marine with an apparent compulsion to •••••••• just about all the time. But while he tries to fool people with his fantasies, he is also very easy to fool. He boasts that he was an can-do guy when he was in the White House, but the record spells no-can-do. North did terible damage to the U.S. until he was caught. One thread runs through his performance--getting conned. The Iranians conned him, the contras conned him, the crooked arms dealers conned him and even Manuel Antonio Noriega conned him. North is also one of the most dangerous men in America today. I've talked with him only once, by telephone on Michael Jackson's radio talk show on KABC in Los Angeles. I had done my homework and wasn't surprised when North put on his usual act. By the time I debated him I had talked with dozens of Marines and soldiers who knew him, as well as with former National security Coucil staff colleagues. I had seen him on countless TV shows, had read about him in several books and hundreds of newspaper and magazine articles. "Does Oliver North Tell the Truth?" was the title of a June 1993 investigation in Reader's Digest. The writer, Rachel Wildavsky, presents a watertight case, providing names and dates and plenty of reasons why the answer to the headline is no. My own sources confirmed or amplified what Wildavsky reports: North "could not be believed--even under oath." One of his former colleagues is quoted as saying North "had trouble distinguishing between what was true and what he wished to be true." In almost 50 years of being around soldiers, I have bumped into my fair share of bullshitters, but Ollie would have to take the first-place ribbon. His record shows that he is totally untrustworthy. During the radio show I asked him to clarify a few of the contradictory stories he was told about himself. North bobbed and weaved and said that if we could get together he would explain everything. I don't want to go near the guy, and he can't make facts disappear by trying to flatter me. At the end of the show he said, "I'm under posttraumatic stress disorder from this interview." The fact is that North is the sort of guy who cringes at the truth. His relationship with Ronald Reagan, for example, was close, according to Ollie. Part of his line is that he persuaded Reagan to invade Grenada in 1983 and that he and Reagan watched the live broadcast of American students returning from Grenada and kissing the tarmac. According to Ollie, Reagan emotionally embraced him. Evidence says that North was never alone with Reagan and that he did not even see the president on the day the students came home. Reagan himself has accused North of making various "false statements." North was convicted on three different counts: for helping decieve Congress about the Reagan administration's trading arms to Iran for release of hostages, for destroying documents and for illegally accepting a home security system that was paid for by a government contractor (Richard Secord), whom North had brought into his operations. Now he claims he was "exonerated," which is another lie. An appeals court threw out the convictions on a legal technicality. During the radio show he called his house in Virginia a "plan old farm." Some plain old farm. It cost more than $1 million and comprises nearly 200 acres and a large stone house in one of the plushest areas of Virginia. He ignored my mention of its worth and said, "We have succeeded with a business that I started." True, he did start a business, Guardian Technologies, which manufactures bulletproof vests, but the major sources of his wealth are well known. Within a year of his appearance before Congress, North started what has become a successful fundraising effort (more than $23 million so far) of which he has been the chief beneficiary. The money he received has also funded his campaign to be the Republican candidate in Virginia's Senate race this year. If you think he did a lot of damage as a light colonel with a record on contempt for the law, imagine the trouble he could get us into as a senator and later as President North. Then he wouldn't merely disregard our Constitution--he could burn it. He probably would not be our first psychopathic president, but he would be the most dangerous. North has a magic mouth. He's part natural politician and part huckster. He could sell camel •••• back to the camels. He has the aura of a savior and he instinctively plays to his audiences. He wants to be looked upon as a military hero, the hairy-chested underdog who can save our country, a kind of leader stud who will follow the example of other warriors who continued to serve and defend our country after they took off their uniforms. North is a perversion of that great tradition. He was not faithful to the Marine Corps, nor to his country, nor to his God. When he became a Marine he took an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic" and to "bear true faith ad allegiance" to the Constitution "so help me God." He then proceeded to lie under oath to the Congress and generally treated the Constitution and other laws as obstacles. What is scary is that North's propaganda has worked on a whole bunch of people whom he was successfully exploited. The perception of many of his devoted flock is that only a strong leader can stop America from being flushed down the toilet. Like Ross Perot, North is a lightning rod for many people who are dissatisfied with America. But North is a lightning rod that is not grounded, and that kind can start fires. He calls himslef a conservative and talks about traditional values, but in fact he was flouted most of them. He should instead call himself a chameleon. The fact that North invokes a war-hero image offends me and disgraces all the brave warriors who serve our country with honor, not deception. North is the sort of guy who could give war stories a bad name. I've spent a lot of my life defending America with either rifle or pen, and I view Ollie as I would a defective weapon system that will blow up when things get hot. Besides shredding evidence, North shredded the trust that soldiers hold close to God, country and their fellow men. Trust is the glue that causes units to be cohesive and to accomplish the impossible. Part of North's spiel is that he was a warrior who followed the orders of his masters--the lowly, good Marine who was the fall guy for the White House ratbags. Nazi generals used the just-following-orders plea when they explained their mass murders. The Uniform Code of Military Justice protects American soldiers from obeying unlawful orders. There is no sign that Oliver North has changed his mind about our Constitution. If he were elected I have no doubt he would do a constitutional bypass, in the interest of efficiency, on the document that efficiently guarantees our freedom. North exaggerate his experiences in a way that makes real warriors gag. Lines in his standard speech include references to Marines who "died facedown in the mud" and remarks such as "this old Marine is prepared for the mission ahead." Sanctimonious ••••. North offended many Marines when he showed up for the congressional hearings with his uniform and medals. It was as if he had donned a costume designed to prove he was a hero, and to win sympathy. To the civilian eye, that splattering of fruit salad seemed to confirm the myth he had already spun about himself with the Washington press corps: that he was a leatherneck who had plenty of experience leading men in combat where people get the medals that count. His Silver Star is no big deal by the standards of the Vietnam war. In Vietnam a total of 21,630 Silver Stars were awarded to Army personnel. Marines received more than 2500. I have nine altogether (five from Korea and four from Vietnam) and gave back a tenth because the action that I was cited for never happened. All too often in Vietnam, officers got medals just for showing up. North also won the Bronze Star. There were 720,000 awarded by the Army during the Vietnam war. No one can count the stunning acts of heroism that was obscured by the excesses of the medal count. Many Vietnam veterans got medals, but most don't try to exploit them or make more of them than they are worth. Retired Major General John Singlaub, a man well-known for his physical and moral courage, said, "To people all over the world Ollie North was a hero. But I knew better. There was a wide gap between the media image of Ollie North--the honest, loyal Marine--and the sordid reality of his true character and performance." Let's keep things in perspective. In 1968 and 1969 North spent 12 months in Vietnam. During the first nine months he skippered a rifle platoon on a though I Corps battlefield and was wounded twice. He was not short on guts or leadership ability and his men rated him as a gung ho and caring leader. For his last three months in Vietnam North was a staff officer, away from combat, with mostly administrative duties. Between 1969 and 1974 he spent most of his time in offices and classrooms and on training assignments. In late 1974 he again took charge of troops when he became a company commander, as a captain, on Okinawa. Just 29 days into the assignment, North--described to me by a follow officer who saw him at the time as an "emotional wreck"--surrendered his command. He returned to the U.S., where he spent as much as three weeks at Bethesda Naval Hospital for some deep-shrinking by psychiatrists. The episode is shrouded in mystery. North himself is vague about it in Under Fire, his autobiography published reports that parts of his medical record were expunged. Meanwhile, there have been published reports (which North never legally challenged) that provide details about the apparent nervous breakdown. In one account he ran around naked, babbling incoherently and waving a .45 pistol. I asked him about his emotional problems on the radio and he did not want to talk about them. Voters in Virginia should ask him about this and demand to see his Marine medical record. Watch him say it's secret because of national security. Hell, he may believe it himself. North never afterward commanded troops. For the rest of his career he was a staff wienie--and by all accounts a good one, if sometimes voerzealous. "You had to keep an eye on him or he would get everyone in trouble," an officer who worked with him told me. He tirelessly shuffled papers, taught classes and for the last five years before Iran-contra exploded, worked as a presidential advisor on national security matters. In the White House his dangerous and destructive fantasies took on the hallmarks of megalomania, perjury, double-dealing and gullibility. He was still a serving Marine, but he wore civilian gear and his weapons during those five years were a word processor, a file cabinet and one mean shredder. And now he is on a roll as the comeback colonel. We are lucky to have survived his first effort at shaping policy. He was incompetent. Now matter how slapstick some of his antics were--like taking the keysshaped cake and the pistols to Tehram--his incompetence caused grave harm to American national interests. The record shows him to be an extraordinary sucker. He wants to please everyone and has this thing about being the ultimate insider. Real insiders can smell pretenders like Ollie. They let them inside only when they can use them. And, boy, was Ollie used. According to one of his colleagues, North boasted that Ronald Reagan "loves my •••." North certainly brough the power of the White House to his projects. And for some of the worst people in the world it was a lucky day when Ollie walked in. He was an answer to the prayers of sleazebags from Panama City to Bierut. It was as if they had one of their own in the White House. The Iranians Ollie dealt with were basically the same people who has seized the U.S. embassy and taken hostages in 1979. Most of the world regarded them as criminals. During the war with Iraq the Iranians were having trouble getting arms. But, with Ollie's help, they managed to get tons of weaponry during 1985 and 1986. In return they prevailed upon their allies in Lebanon to turn loose some kidnapped U.S. civilians. North himself, in a message sent to John Poindexter (a message that he attempted but failed to destroy), lays out the chain of organizarions from Tehran right down to the hostage holders--a well-known Middle Eastern terrorist group called the Hezbollah. It was the Hezbollah who carried out the bombing of the Beirut barracks in October 1983, in wich 241 Marines and servicemen were killed. Two years later, despite the rhetorical denunciations of all terrorists by the Reagan White House, Ollie did business with them. So Ollie did succeed in getting people out, right? Yes, except that when three hostages were released, the terrorists simply snatched three others to get ready to bargin for more arms. "The net accomplishement of North's arms deals with the Iranians was to create a market for hostages," said Tom Blanton, executive director of the National Security Archive in Washington, D.C. The NSA, a nongovernmental library of declassified documents, is the greatest single public repository of hard facts about North and the whole Iran-contra scam. "The market featured prices--a.k.a. ransoms--running from $1 million in cash to as high as $8 million in missiles. That's an incentive for a revolving door." Remember: the official line was that North and his colleagues worked only with moderates in Iran. The joke back in 1987 was that a moderate in Iran was anybody who was low on ammo. Voters in Virginia should ask him if the people who killed the Marines and sailors in Beirut were moderates. North also dealt with other people who dwelt in the terrorist sewer. Back in 1987 he testified that terrorist Abu Nidal wanted him dead. I was, North said, Nidal's threats that made him install the security system. Nidal and his associates must have had a good laugh when they saw how North had fooled the American public. They knew about Ollie. abu Nidal and Ollie bought weapons from the same Syrian arms dealer. Monzer al-Kassar. So did Abul Abbas, the man who carried out the seizure of the Achille Lauro and the murder of Leon Klinghoffer. The terrorist underworld wanted a patsy like Ollie alive and doing business. It's a good bet that the contras did not get their money's worth out of the weapons Ollie got for them from Monzer al-Kassar. For all the money he raised for the fontras, little of it did the grunts in the field any good. They were eating monkeys and suffering supply problems while the Miami leadership team with whom North worked brought expensive suits and lived comfortably. North's involvement with manuel Noriega would be funny of it had not damaged the U.S. so much. Ollie regularly kissed the Panamanians's ••• in exchange for promises of help with the contras. An American who knew them both said, "To North, Noriega was like Brando up the river in Apocalypse Now. No rules." Noriega's reputation--as a narcotrafficker, election fixer, double or triple intellignce agent and accomplice to murder--did not deter Ollie. When Noriega got some bad press in the summer of 1986 he went to Ollie and told him he wanted his image buffed up in Washington. In return, Noriega offered to blow up some Sandinista targets inside Nicaragua. North enthusiastically reported all this to Poindexter and, ever gullible, judged Noriega's offer "sincere." Thank God, North got caught just two months later. Voters in Virginia should ask North why he wanted to improve the image of someone like Noriega, who played such a crucial role in shipping cocaine to Americans. North should not call himself a conservative, at least not in the way my family and friends in Virginia define the word. If the qualifies as the leader of any cause it is the neo-fruitcake movement. I hope the good people of Virginia realize he is the opposite of a patriot and make that clear with their ballots. My family first settled in Virginia in 1622 and my ancestors would spin in their graves if he were to represent the state. I hereby volunteer for his enemies list. | ||
| Mustt_mustt Citizen Username: Mustt_mustt Post Number: 294 Registered: 8-2003 |
Thank you, Parkbench. | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 2115 Registered: 5-2001  |
So does Hackworth like him, or not? I can't really tell.  I like the idea of a North/Ritter debate, but I wouldn't want to be the guy who has to clean North up after Ritter wipes the floor with him. | ||
| Michael Janay Citizen Username: Childprotect Post Number: 1647 Registered: 1-2003 |
Yeah, I missed it. I screwed up. I'm pissed about it. I made the mistake, and I'm upset about it. I marked it in my calendar as Wednesday. Ooops. I had a list of questions, I could post them here, and maybe you could get Ritter to respond to them? I'd really appreciate it if you could. You Paul are the one who said and I quote YOU: "If any administration supporters want to co-sponsor the meeting in a debate format, I'd be interested in discussing that. " I'm interested. A real forensic debate. Heck Paul, how about You and I have a real debate. I'll bet many on MOL would love to come to that. Or are you chicken? What do you say? how about it, Mano a Mano, South Mountain Peace Action vs. Maplewood/South Orange Coalition for Freedom and Liberty. Lincoln-Douglas Style Debate, Though we could talk about other forms like NDT, CEDA, or Parliamentary Debate (though I'd prefer L-D because it more suits our issues and requires evidence be presented (so I could see why you might want to stay away from that)) I'm working on getting North, and/or a few others, as I've said in my PL to you. I've been in contact with North (by e-mail) his agent, and his speakers bureau. For an event like this he will drastically cut his fee (low enough so that if I needed to I could write a check for it myself) is Ritter doing it for free, or do you pay him a fee?. As I also said, we need to supply info about venue, audience, format, and possible dates. So this could possibly happen, but you invited any administration supporters that want to co-sponsor the meeting in a debate format, Like I said, I'm interested, North or not. Or are you and Ritter afraid of having real debate where you don't get to control the Q&A?  | ||
| Parkbench87 Citizen Username: Parkbench87 Post Number: 1793 Registered: 7-2001 |
I think this Ollie has more credibility than Ollie North.  | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 563 Registered: 3-2004 |
The best thing about Ollie North (handsomely paid, propagandizing ex-Marine) was Fawn Hall. And she is no longer working with him. But he does deserve credit for making himself into a pundit on all things U.S., avidly listened to by people who would rather obtain their opinions already packaged and conveniently formulated, than have to read and think independently and develop their own points of view. | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 258 Registered: 2-2003 |
Michael, My offer on a North-Ritter debate stands. The ball is in your court. I'm waiting. Regarding a debate with you -- I'd be happy to debate your allegiance to the proposition that it would be worth the deaths of 1 million American servicemen and women to achieve "democracy" in Iraq. It would have been interesting to see you debate that point with Scott Ritter on Tuesday, but you didn't show up. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 460 Registered: 9-2004 |
"it would be worth the deaths of 1 million American servicemen and women to achieve "democracy" in Iraq". Paul, Do you want to start a riot? That comment would anger so many citizens in this great town, especially after what happen on 9/11. Anyways…Ritter would tear him to shreds (in words of response to that comment).  | ||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 1856 Registered: 6-2003 |
Right after the Iran-Contra scandal was publicized, Fawn Hall tried to get backstage at a Springsteen concert. Now to most rockers a good looking girl is a good looking girl, not the boss. He sent a message to security to tell Ms. Hall that, he was not a Republican, abhorred the actions of her boss and simply had nothing to say to her. What a guy. | ||
| Michael Janay Citizen Username: Childprotect Post Number: 1650 Registered: 1-2003 |
Regarding a debate with you -- I'd be happy to debate your allegiance to the proposition that it would be worth the deaths of 1 million American servicemen and women to achieve "democracy" in Iraq. OK Paul, Set it up. I'll be the affirmative. What dates are you free? and where? I assume Lincoln-Douglas debate rules are OK with you? As for North, as I said in my PL to you, I need you to supply info on venue, audience, format, and possible dates. When is Ritter available and would he agree to a L/D format with the subject being "The spread of Democracy in the middle east is it in Americas best interests?" What would his fee be? How many people do you think will attend? Where could we do it? Will it be taped professionally? As for Our debate, Since you did such a great job with the Ritter speech, will you take the lead in setting it up? We'll need a judge that it impartial, I'm sure LibraryLady could get us the SO library, but it is kind of small. I'm free pretty much anytime after March 25th, but not during Passover, when I'll be in Buffalo. | ||
| Michael Janay Citizen Username: Childprotect Post Number: 1651 Registered: 1-2003 |
Oh, and Paul, Just so I understand what you're saying. Is your offer North/Ritter or nothing, or will another adminstration supporter do? I assume once you pay Ritters fee, he should be able to debate anyone. I mean, Why not a Hannity/Ritter debate instead? I also got some positive feedback from Ann Coulters people, but she is exoensive and wants a bigger venue than I think we could get (but the HS aud might do) Or like I said, how about a Janay/Ritter debate. Or are you just trying to save face for the fact that Ritter won't actually debate anyone (not answer questions at the end of a talk, thats not a debate). So you are making an all or nothing gambit on whether I can get North or not. If Ritter is so smart and so right, why won't he take on any comers once his fee is paid? I was serious, I'll chip in some of his fee if I can debate him in a real debate. And my schedule is WIDE open. This was YOUR idea Paul. | ||
| Maple Man Citizen Username: Mapleman Post Number: 513 Registered: 6-2004  |
Not for nothing, but doesn't it occur to you to invite a historian or scholar to debate with Ritter, instead of a TV barking head? These characters don't debate, they shout down their opponents. Coulter and Hannity? Lincoln-Douglas rules? You've got to be joking! | ||
| Michael Janay Citizen Username: Childprotect Post Number: 1654 Registered: 1-2003 |
Good Idea, any suggestions? |
