| Author | Message | ||
     D. Moderator Username: Dave Post Number: 5516 Registered: 4-1998  |
Won't "better informed people" still require roads and bridges? | ||
| Cathy Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 759 Registered: 6-2002 |
"again the only conclusion to be reached from your point is that the populace is an uneducated mass unable to make intelligent and informed decisions and therefore must be saved from itself by government. " Do you really think everybody (or even anybody) would do a Google search and consciously weigh environmental damage, worker rights, etc. every time they wanted to buy a t-shirt at Target? I'm not saying people are an uneducated mass unable to make intelligent decisions. I do believe that few have the time to do the research required to make truly informed choices for every purchase they make. (or even most purchases.) I know that I don't, and I am a hyper-educated information junkie. You can have voluntary labeling deals, e.g. the "fair trade" logo on coffee, and that would help. But still - for most people the bottom line is the bottom line. They don't necessarily like that people suffer so that they can get cheap stuff, but it is all too easy to quieten down that part of your conscience in order to get a really great bargain. Am I saying this is ethically correct? No. Of course it isn't. But it is how people act. Therefore, if I want society to be just (and I do) the inevitable conclusion is that regulation is necessary. | ||
| Mark Fuhrman Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 1382 Registered: 9-2001  |
Man, we are back to Hobbes's Leviathan now. All humans are inherently greedy and self-interested, and we live in a state of perpetual war. But since this is impossible to sustain above a minimal existence, we have laws, social contracts, and government to impose the peace. | ||
| ashear Supporter Username: Ashear Post Number: 1707 Registered: 5-2001 |
I find it interesting that none of the liberterians have seen fit to address the points I made above. So I'll ask directly: How would you prevent abuse of workers, environmental degredation, horifying poverty (or even more of it), etc. These are all the conditions that existed before the market was regulated which led to the regulations. | ||
| Carrie Avery Citizen Username: Carrie33 Post Number: 178 Registered: 1-2005  |
This post makes the human race sound like a bunch of hypercritical, self absorbed, consumer junkies who care nothing for humanity as a whole. In fact, in some cases we are. In other words, if we didn't express ourselves like this we would travel through life feeling immense guilt and shame, and therefore do nothing to help ourselves survive. Hey, thankgod for MOL. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 467 Registered: 3-2004 |
Do you really think everybody (or even anybody) would do a Google search and consciously weigh environmental damage, worker rights, etc. every time they wanted to buy a t-shirt at Target? then who is to blame? the company for producing it, or the consumer for being too lazy and ignorant to learn? I find it interesting that none of the liberterians have seen fit to address the points I made above. So I'll ask directly: How would you prevent abuse of workers, environmental degredation, horifying poverty (or even more of it), etc. These are all the conditions that existed before the market was regulated which led to the regulations. these issues have all been addressed in this thread. if the consumer stops purchasing the products produced by these offensive companies then they will change their ways. if people continue to purchasse these products then obviously the consumer doesnt care about those issues and will reap the effect of their lack of concern. its called voting with your dollar. a much more powerful vote then anything you do in a voting booth.} | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 468 Registered: 3-2004 |
Won't "better informed people" still require roads and bridges? of course, and no one is arguing that government serves no purpose at all. there are some things for which a government is necessary. i just dont think forced charity is one of them. | ||
| Cathy Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 760 Registered: 6-2002 |
Mark & Carrie, basically that's right. But I don't even think that this is necessarily evil. And Libertarian, I don't think they're lazy or ignorant either. They just instinctively search for solutions that further their own interests, and don't consider the cost to others. That's Darwinian evolution for you. But because we are human we are able to rise above our basic animal selves and recognize that a greater good is possible and wish to strive for it. We are however sadly prone to backsliding. I honestly don't think we can help it, I think it's hard-wired into human nature. I also think that our greed is essentially an insidious force, as we are usually almost entirely unaware of it. Think fast - where were your clothes made? Under what conditions were they made? What about your kids' toys? Your cup of coffee? Do you know off the top of your head? In most cases, probably no. Nor did you think as you were buying these things "I think I'll selfishily look for the best price possible while not caring about the interests of the workers who made this or the environmental damage that is a consequence of its production." What you thought was, "this is exactly what I was looking for", or "this is a reasonable price" or "I really need a cup of coffee now" or something like that. And I really can't say that people are evil (or lazy or stupid or ignorant) for thinking like that. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 472 Registered: 3-2004 |
so instead of trying to become better people through knowledge and self awareness, we should just make some laws, force people to fund these laws and go back to being petty ignorant people? good idea. you ask for these laws in order to make the world a better place when you are actually just helping to maintain the status quo. it gives you a false sense that you are doing good when all you have done is passed the buck onto other people and then congratulated yourself for being so caring. | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 609 Registered: 3-2004 |
As I read all the postings above I felt strongly that I was looking at a still picture in a thick frame, with no point of reference outside of itself, and no awareness of the world outside of itself. Little sense of historical framework, lots of ideological viewpoints and preconceived notions, and no world view. Pax americana--- how seductive. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 474 Registered: 3-2004 |
every time you post in regards to my libertarian philosophy your answer always seems to be in the vein, " the world isnt like that and it never will be so lets just live with it". it is a very defeatist and apathetic way to see the world. i feel bad for you. | ||
| Cathy Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 761 Registered: 6-2002 |
"so instead of trying to become better people through knowledge and self awareness, we should just make some laws, force people to fund these laws and go back to being petty ignorant people? good idea." On a purely personal level, I do try to raise awareness in others. I teach a class where such issues are discussed (a college freshman level class on global issues). I think it makes a very small dent in the way people behave though. One way I do this is through an ice-breaker activity on the first day of class. The students examine the labels on each others clothing (while maintaining proper classroom decorum of course, just in case Cato or somebody is reading this and wants to register for my class :-). We list the countries where the clothes were made. The students are very surprised by how many really poor countries are represented. We also discuss the production of a plate of peas, and what it takes to bring peas from the field to the freezer to your plate, how many people are involved, what jobs they do, etc. We relate the two together - how many people were involved in the manufacture of the clothes in our classroom, what were their lives like, working conditions, etc. The students have almost never given the slightest thought to this before the class begins. We also discuss tradeoffs. We get some benefit from having cheap stuff to buy, but also costs (loss of American jobs). The workers who make our clothes overseas may also be living in dire poverty, but without the factory work they'd possibly starve to death. This is just a class opener - we discuss a lot of things in much more depth than this in class. (ethics, science, environment, economics, global conflict & health.) I don't try to change anybody's minds, after all we're there to learn about global issues. But it gets the students thinking about how their purchases affect others. Having done it, and using a method that I find is reasonably effective, I can still say that it is nearly impossible to change behavior. I am reasonably sure that most of these students' purchasing decisions do not take environmental or working conditions into account. | ||
| Maple Man Citizen Username: Mapleman Post Number: 526 Registered: 6-2004  |
mj, interesting that you use the elephant example as the "free market" at work. Sounds pretty regulated to me if they're selling licenses, though. and maybe you think the FDA should be abolished, but if we did, I'll bet the pharamceutical companies would be begging for its return in no time. The FDA approval process bolsters consumer confidence in new products. How would drug companies launch new products if there was no impartial authority to endorse them? Who would want to be the first patients to try a new medicine? Only those desperate enough not to care what the side effects would be. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 475 Registered: 3-2004 |
then the companies that they are buying from are performing to their specifications. your students are either not concerned that the clothes they wear are made with slave labor or they are willfully ignorant. so we should force people to pay for laws so that they can remain willfully ignorant? that will certainly make this a better world. why make our populace more knowledgable when we can spend other peoples money and allow people to remain ignorant. hip hip hooray for the good ol' U.S.A.!! | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 476 Registered: 3-2004 |
Who would want to be the first patients to try a new medicine? Only those desperate enough not to care what the side effects would be. the people would either: 1. do some research on the medecine in question 2. find a good doctor who does this research. bad doctors will be ignored because people will only pay doctors who do this research, something a good doctor should be doing anyway. even medicine can benefit from a free market system! | ||
| Cathy Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 762 Registered: 6-2002 |
"every time you post in regards to my libertarian philosophy your answer always seems to be in the vein, " the world isnt like that and it never will be so lets just live with it". it is a very defeatist and apathetic way to see the world. i feel bad for you." I don't think it's defeatist at all. I just think that the world is more complicated than you describe and I don't hold (what I see as) a naive belief that the free market will solve all ills. Innisowen, rather than describing the posts here as very American and having no reference points, why don't you provide some. I think the conversation is abstract because it started that way and we're taking it on its own terms. I live with an Irishman myself and am frequently in Ireland, and also lived outside the US for several years. I find that such conversation occurs everywhere (at least the English-speaking places with which I am most familiar). I don't thik it is uniquely American. The principles being argued may be different, but they are often argued on a similarly abstract level. Please feel free to disagree. :-) | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 477 Registered: 3-2004 |
i was talking to innisowen, not you cathy. sorry for the confusion. | ||
| Cathy Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 763 Registered: 6-2002 |
OK Libertarian, where were your clothes made? Just out of curiosity. Are you willfully ignorant, or do you not care? Or do you consciously, carefully make choices so as to protect people overseas or here in the US. If those are the only possibilities, you must fall into one of them. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 478 Registered: 3-2004 |
I don't hold (what I see as) a naive belief that the free market will solve all ills. i agree, it wont solve all ills. but enough things can be solved by applying free market principles that our behemoth of a gov't can be pared down and our tax burden decreased significantly. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 479 Registered: 3-2004 |
OK Libertarian, where were your clothes made? Just out of curiosity. Are you willfully ignorant, or do you not care? Or do you consciously, carefully make choices so as to protect people overseas or here in the US. If those are the only possibilities, you must fall into one of them. i fall in the middle of the willfully ignorant/dont care area. i feel shame at that knowledge but even more shame that i know i probably wont do anything about it. i do however make all of my food choices based upon treatment of the animals involved, labor practices of the company, and whether its a gov't subsidized industry. thats the piece of the world i am trying to change by voting with my dollar. |
