| Author | Message | ||
     Reflective Citizen Username: Reflective Post Number: 794 Registered: 3-2003 |
bobk the criminal use of guns in Britain is increasing greatly. Big concern to our cousins. Add to that the terrorist threat. They are concerned. | ||
| Local_1_crew Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 444 Registered: 3-2004 |
Do you miss the point as often in target practice? Yes, there is responsibility; however, there has to be a way to hold people accountable. Do you have a problem with that? Or is libertarian synonomous with anarchist? how does restricting people from buying guns hold people accountable. it does quite the opposite. on another matter, why is it that you cant have a debate with someone of a differing opinion without becoming irate and insulting? Are you so sure that your opinion is the only right one and therefore anyone who disagrees deserves insulting replies. Or is it that you lack the information and conviction of your opinion so anger and dergatory comments are your only defense? | ||
| LilLB Citizen Username: Lillb Post Number: 440 Registered: 10-2002  |
Carl - I understand what the result of robbing a liquor store is, but most people won't actually commit a crime like that just to pay the rent - they do it to buy drugs or the like. Like I said, just a loose theory, but poor people might go on public assistance or do things to beat the system to get by, but I don't think most of them go through with gun-related crimes unless there are drugs involved | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 588 Registered: 3-2004 |
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." So says the second amendment to the Bill of Rights. So who's in the Militia, among gun-toters? And will the gun-toters not in the Militia please enlist, so we know whom to call on, when the need arises? And will you tell me how your single-action Colt .45 or your 14 shot Beretta semi-auto is going to protect us from terrorist hordes that may infiltrate New Jersey? Alternatively, will you tell me how your fully-automatic assault weapon with 20-shot magazine is necessary to bring down a White-tail deer in western New Jersey or Pennsylvania? Or why you think a "street sweeper" is the must-have weapon for duck or goose hunting on the Chesapeake? Like others on this board, I have a record of honorable military service behind me (in a mean little war in Southeast Asia) but God help me, I don't get your fascination with the need to keep guns. | ||
| SO Refugee Citizen Username: So_refugee Post Number: 36 Registered: 2-2005  |
L1C - "so why bother charging people with murder? we should arrest the gun." This is the part where we differ on holding people accountable; you seem to think this is a joke. Really, is this your idea of a serious debate? | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 600 Registered: 3-2004 |
It's just his rhetorical use of reductio ad absurdum or per impossibile. Nothing more. And deflates his arguments. | ||
| Local_1_crew Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 453 Registered: 3-2004 |
you are both so locked into your opinions that you are unable to contemplate a differing concept. why bother reading and posting on this board? is it strictly to recieve validation for your views? it surely isnt to expand the small world that you live in. | ||
| Carrie Avery Citizen Username: Carrie33 Post Number: 173 Registered: 1-2005  |
This argument is a fine example of the vast differances of opinions and how people will express themselves to the point of being arrogant. I bet if you met in person and discussed this you would hear, between the two of you, how alike you really are., in that you have strong convictions and can still respect each other. Writing can be misinterpreted, as the sound of a persons voice can make a world of differance. On the other hand, you might "take it outside" and beat the crap out of each other because of your differances in opinions and actually prove the point that violence can be deadly. As for guns , I know each state has differant laws for holding, and not unlike anything else,responsibility is in the hands of the beholder. There is no excuse for killing, but I do have to accept it in the sense of: "defending your life, family, and possessions" | ||
| SO Refugee Citizen Username: So_refugee Post Number: 39 Registered: 2-2005 |
Carrie - well stated. L1C - the proverbial pot calling the kettle black. | ||
| common sense Citizen Username: Common_sense Post Number: 41 Registered: 12-2004 |
I see that Local 1 wants diverse views, I gave him one - John Lott thinks more guns = less crime - Ok how many guns until no crime ? It can't be answered becuase there is no rational - or empirical - justification for the incredible anmount of gun killing that goes on the US daily. Just read the local pages in the Star Ledger - just last week a grandmother and local fixture was killed in her home by a "stray bullet". But like i said, what society do you want - there is evidence of soicety without guns (UK) - very little killing, or the US - lots of guns, lots of killing. It is not - as the NRA would like you to focus on - a crime issue. It is a dead people issue. Or Local 1 are you pretending this is not so ? | ||
| Local_1_crew Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 455 Registered: 3-2004 |
i just think the that blaming the guns is our society's way of continuing the cycle of lack of personal responsibility. we are too afraid to stare into what we have become that creates so many people willing to shoot one another. it is easier to just blame guns themselves and be done with it. more people die in car accidents each year than by shooting but we dont try to out law cars. alcohol related deaths are on the rise but we dont outlaw booze. drinking, smoking, and shooting a gun are all personal choices that someone makes. the person is to blame, not the means by which he commits the act. but we have become a blameless group. no one wants to accept responsibility for their actions so it is easier to blame something else. | ||
| newone Citizen Username: Newone Post Number: 227 Registered: 8-2001 |
Here's a test to try... Load a round in your gun and leave it untouched on a table. Let's see how long it takes the gun to kill someone. Go on, try it. Common - have you actually read the book or are you just commenting on the title? This isn't a post and run but I'm in job training (in gun friendly Pennsylvania ;) )for the rest of the week with limited access so I won't be able to comment. Till then.... | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2935 Registered: 12-2001  |
V. good. If we continue with the line of reasoning that guns don't kill people, people kill people, then I don't understand why we don't want N. Korea and Iran to have nuclear weapons. Given that people do kill people and given that guns greatly simplify the task of killing somebody, a reasonable person would seek to limit gun ownership. Let's drop this line that private gun ownership protects us from our own government. Look to Iraq to see how effective a modern army is against marginally organized lightly-armed rebels. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 7822 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tjohn, the last line is irony, right? | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2936 Registered: 12-2001 |
Not really Bob. The rebels in Iraq have certainly exacted a cost. OTOH, they have not prevented us from moving forward with the construction of a new Iraqi government. The success of the Iraqi government very much depends on the ability of the Kurds, Sunnis and Shi'a to work out their differences. If they can do this, they can overcome the rebels. | ||
| common sense Citizen Username: Common_sense Post Number: 42 Registered: 12-2004 |
local - we ain't talking about cars newone - in houses that don't have guns, no-one picks them up in a drunken rage and shoots anyone this has happened in houses with loaded guns left lying on tables. and your point is ? I don't need to read the Lott book because I am not buying into his viewpoint to start with because it is wrong. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 7826 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tjohn, I see your point,although I think the verdict is still out on what is going to happen in Iraq over the next five years.. However, look at Vietnam (where elections were also held) or even our own revolution for a different point of view. Not that I am in anyway in favor of the "militias" we have in this country. | ||
| newone Citizen Username: Newone Post Number: 228 Registered: 8-2001 |
common my point exactly - it's the person using the instrument, not the instrument itself. i can leave my pistol loaded and on the table forever (i don't) and it won't shoot by itself. so you won't be objective and read a book because you already know you are prejudiced against it? how do you know what his viewpoint is? you are just basing an outcome on a title....whatever.... speaking of cars - do you remeber hearing about the man some years ago who drove his car into a school yard in california and killed a few students? he said they deserved to die. did the car drive itself or was it just an instrument? talk about assault weapons! back to studying and training.... | ||
| common sense Citizen Username: Common_sense Post Number: 44 Registered: 12-2004 |
We are not speaking of cars. Well, I read Lott's article which gave me insight. I know my view - he doesn't support it, reading his book would waste my time. Your point about the inanimate object is juvenile by the way - what is your point? Guns are machines for killing and they are very efficient at it. Empirically the US has and disproportionately high gun killing rate vs the rest of the civilized world - because of the plethora of guns. No guns, no gun killing. Pretty simple. I am reminded of apartheidt (sp) in South Africa. My view (shared by Nelson Mandela among others) is that it was wrong. But many people when asked whether they thought it was wrong would answer that it is complicated. No, is it wrong? If you can't identify that it is wrong, you will never fix it. So Newone, do you think that the gun killing situation in the US is wrong ? No shadings, just is it right or is it wrong? Only then can you begin to fix it. Where do you stand ? | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 484 Registered: 3-2004 |
I know my view - he doesn't support it, reading his book would waste my time. yes, one should stick to reading only books and articles that agree with ones opinion. keep the mind nice and narrow. But many people when asked whether they thought it was wrong would answer that it is complicated. i would really like to see proof of this.} |
