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joeltfk
Citizen
Username: Joeltfk
Post Number: 131
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 11:02 pm: | 
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"Joeltflk, I would rather think that your time energy and such could be better spent doing something positive."
I could think of no better time spent than protesting the election of the most reprehensible and irresponsible Presidential administration of the modern era and the poorest justification for actions that result in the loss of human life. Like the saying goes, if you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
"Be very glad that you live in this country, where you can play this sort of game."
I definitely am. I guess when Clinton was in power, you enjoyed your little games as well. Of course, that President lied because he had the hots for a girl. This President lied to get access to oil and make the public believe he was tough on terrorism when Iraq had little to do with it by every reliable account.
"Make note of the results of the free elections in Afghanistan and Iraq."
So long as you make note of 1500 senseless American deaths and the extra Afghan-grown heroin in our streets. If you think America would have supported this war if the goal was free elections then you're really delusional. |
L'Angelo Misterioso
Citizen
Username: Misterioso
Post Number: 46
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 11:23 pm: |
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Which "free" elections were those? The one in Iraq where no one knew who the candidates were until election day, and at least 25% of the country boycotted it? Or the one in Afghanistan where more people were registered to vote than live in the country? |
L'Angelo Misterioso
Citizen
Username: Misterioso
Post Number: 47
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 11:34 pm: |
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Let's see how stringently and consistently the MOL rule against personal attacks is applied
Mustt_mustt:
...
Straw - you might want to translate the meaning of your last name before calling others "dumb."
Strawberry:
Meaning of my last name?..I'm straw and you're manure.. |
Dave
Citizen
Username: Dave
Post Number: 5605
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 11:55 pm: |
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Stringent and consistent. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 3279
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 11:45 am: |
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I think the elections must have been legit. The vaunted UN said so. The very UN that some idiots want to turn Iraq over to because they're doing such a fine job in the Congo, Haiti and The Balkans. |
Foj
Citizen
Username: Foger
Post Number: 36
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 12:34 pm: |
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Notehead--remember the Viet Nam protests?
It doesnt matter if you are old enough or you learned about them after the fact.
Someone started that movement--many people joined
the movement. The Movement became part of the solution---we won--and we got out of Viet Nam.
By our simple existance-- And our demand to tell the truth about the war in Iraq,we win.
Plus the Neo Con Corperatist death cult figureheads hate the 1960's. I'd like to dust off the winning playbook and tell them to take the 60's and fold it 5 times and put it where the moon dont shine. |
algebra2
Supporter
Username: Algebra2
Post Number: 3077
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 12:41 pm: |
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Misterioso -- are you really saying that Straw should be suspended for calling someone "manure"? You are all too much. At least with Strawberry around there is some debate.
The funny thing is looking at the posters on this thread only one other than Straw has "supporter" under his name. Only one actually thought of the idea to have a fundraiser at Bunny's to support MOL -- I wonder how many of you whiners we'll see there.
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notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 2156
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 1:40 pm: |
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Foj - I agree. I hope my previous post didn't come across as criticism of Joel's organization. I totally support what they are about, based on his description above. However, when he said, "We seek to build a broad-based movement of like-minded individuals who are willing to take bold and creative action to end the war, and to promote peace and justice." I was naturally curious about what sort of actions they are talking about. |
Face
Citizen
Username: Face
Post Number: 523
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 4:08 pm: |
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How dare you refer to our soldiers deaths while honorably performing their duties to be "senseless."
You Sir/or Madam, have no honor for your countryman, especially those who serve. You may call Bush a "liar" or whatever else you wish, because you benefit from the freedoms provided by our military. Please do not call American soldiers who perished in the line of duty "senseless". You should re-think your position, the Middle East is experiencing major change for the better? We'll see, but change is difficult and doesn't always go smoothly.
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notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 2160
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 4:46 pm: |
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Face, you're taking offense where I'm sure none is meant. Even soldiers, from grunts to the highest ranks, have expressed confusion and disagreement regarding their mission. It is not unreasonable for someone to find the deaths of so many people "senseless" when their mission is so poorly planned and executed. |
joeltfk
Citizen
Username: Joeltfk
Post Number: 133
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 4:59 pm: |
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And just to be clear, we're not saying the soldiers themselves are senseless. When otherwise honorable and brave soldiers are dying for an unjust cause, that is senseless. That 1500 U.S. soliders and thousands more Iraqi civilians are dead so that (and this is the sole remaining rationalization) Iraq can have something that resembles a free election -- that's senseless.
This gets to the heart of how so many people -- many many more than whom voted for Kerry -- can support the troops and deplore the war.
Notehead -- just to help answer your question: I think (and I'm not SOMASTOP's spokesperson, so this is my personal take) one of the main ideas is to expose the misrepresentations and manipulation of public opinion that got us to this point and continues unabated. SOMASTOP's flyers present facts to debunk myths and propoganda. We also use facts to redefine the concept of patriotism, and experts to expose what's really going on in Iraq. These are the nature of actions taken by this group. We believe if more people know the truth, they are more likely to get involved. |
sylvester the investor
Citizen
Username: Mummish
Post Number: 19
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 5:47 pm: |
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WORTHLESS.
why don't you put your efforts into backing a cause that will actually accomplish something.
Damn hippy freaks. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 2109
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 6:10 pm: |
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That deserves suspension. Practicing freedom of speech is a fundamental constitutional right. Go pollute Alaska, sylvester, et. al. Spend your time mucking up the world with oil and blood. You are greedy, self-indulgent and pathetically uneducated. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 3286
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 9:08 pm: |
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Any other wars you'll be protesting, or just those that might give you political advantage if you're successful? |
sylvester the investor
Citizen
Username: Mummish
Post Number: 20
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 9:12 pm: |
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"You are greedy, self-indulgent and pathetically uneducated."
i'll give you 1 & 2 (sarcasm), but lets get serious with #3... pathetically uneducated.... I just have to laugh at that one.
Hurray for drilling in ANWR!!!!!! Doesn't just make you ill. I hope it does. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 2110
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 9:15 pm: |
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Republicans, the party of profit through filth, slime and death. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 3287
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 9:21 pm: |
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When you have your rally or whatever, you might take a moment -- especially when the cameras are rolling -- to congratulate the Iraqis for the first meeting of an elected government in 50 years, coming on the anniversary of Saddam's gassing of the Kurds (Genocide? Let's ask the UN soon as they get off that young girl on the floor). I think it would be a nice touch. |
sylvester the investor
Citizen
Username: Mummish
Post Number: 22
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 9:26 pm: |
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Democrats, the party of profit through exploitation of minorities, the uneducated and the poor. |
Face
Citizen
Username: Face
Post Number: 524
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 9:57 pm: |
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“I could think of no better time spent than protesting the election of the most reprehensible and irresponsible Presidential administration of the modern era and the poorest justification for actions that result in the loss of human life.”
And here I thought your organization wasn’t really a front for the “I Hate Bush Club.” Silly me, I thought you were actually going to protest the war!
Is it possible to wage a good war?
And paleeeze stop with the “This President lied to get access to oil.” If it’s all about oil, where is the benefit? Lower prices? Higher prices? Please explain it to us who cannot fathom the truth as you see it.
Make no mistake about it the world economy is run on energy and most of it comes from the fossil fuels coal and oil. Natural Gas has made significant inroads, but oil and coal are still by far the most important.
Do you suggest that America build nuclear plants? If so, will you protest for them? Remember, nuclear power is clean and emission free, although there might be some problem disposing of spent fuel rods later on. See nothing is free! Even solar and wind have major draw backs.
Republicans are getting elected while defeating Democrats with increasing regularity. Wonder why? The Democratic Party is out of touch and rarely offers solutions. They criticize without ever offering viable improvements. They run away from dealing with important issues hiding behind and forcing upon others their political correctness. They waste time and money, so too do most politicians even Republicans and even Libertarians. Guess that goes with the title, politician.
And Sylvester, you forgot the elderly, the infirm and Hollywood.
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joeltfk
Citizen
Username: Joeltfk
Post Number: 136
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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"And here I thought your organization wasn’t really a front for the "I Hate Bush Club." Silly me, I thought you were actually going to protest the war!"
It's impossible to criticize the War and the misrepresentation and manipulation that led to it without referencing the person whose administration did the misrepresenting and manipulating! The next time President Bush distances himself from his Iraq decisions, I'll be more inclined to separate him from my critique.
"Is it possible to wage a good war?"
In my opinion, absolutely. I am not an all-cases pacifist. I'm not even necessarily anti-death penalty. This just happens to be an example of waging a terrible war for poor reasons with pathetic intelligence (in every sense of the word).
And if you think we're "hippies," take a good look when you come by and let us know if we look any different from you or if our collars are any less white than yours.
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L'Angelo Misterioso
Citizen
Username: Misterioso
Post Number: 48
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 11:48 pm: |
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Algebra2 - As Janeane Garofalo likes to say, nowadays every day is opposite day. And it's certainly true here, where if you refer to someone, euphemistically but quite clearly, as "••••" it's okay, all in good fun and perfectly civil, but if you address them by their real names it's a hangin' offense. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 2111
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 4:10 am: |
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Republicans are getting elected while defeating Democrats with increasing regularity
Not in Essex County, or New Jersey. Look around. We're still here. That's what's really bothering you. You want to be a unilateral power, with no resistance. You want to run everything your way, and you can't stand to be second in anything. Disgusting!! So sad. And who's exploiting the poor when your own fearless leader wants to have them send their paltry savings to his Wall Street buddies?
Nobody can differ with the lot of you, because you have some kind of paranoia driven megalomania. Enough.You do make me sick. Congratulations. |
Michael Paris
Citizen
Username: Publius
Post Number: 2
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 8:19 am: |
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This is a response to notehead's quite reasonable question about the South Orange/Maplewood Committee to Stop the War’s position on how we think the war should be stopped (March 15). The members of the SOMA Committee to Stop the War hold a range of views on how best to stop the war and bring the troops home. Some believe an immediate withdrawal would be best. Others think a staged withdrawal worked out in conjunction with a vastly increased role for the U.N. makes more sense. All would like to see deadlines and assurances that the U.S. will pull out completely (e.g., no military bases).
However, one thing on which we all agree is that this question of what we (the U.S.) should do next is in a sense exactly the wrong question. The better and prior questions to answer are these: How did a small and largely unaccountable group of officials in the executive branch of government fabricate a crisis over Iraq? How did this group manage to take this country to war under false pretenses? Why did Congress abdicate its constitutional responsibilities? Where was the Democratic Party? What can citizens do to hold the Bush Administration accountable for the unnecessary deaths of over 1,500 Americans and somewhere between 20,000 and 100,000 Iraqis? What would amount to effective political action against those responsible? These are our questions. If you want to join us, contact us as www.somastopthewar.org
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notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 2167
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 4:57 pm: |
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Thanks, MP. Your post addresses one of the most important things that libs/Dems need to do right now: find our common ground so that we can make more headway on things that really matter. We are, generally, much more tolerant of divergent opinions on matters large and small, and that seems to prevent us from getting traction when it counts.
Good luck. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 2114
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 5:56 pm: |
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It also helps us get at the real truth of how policies impact our society, and to collect new, exciting and effective ideas for dealing with social, economic and political issues. Diversity has its strengths. That's why our founding fathers alluded to the rights of individuals in the face of the faceless State. |
algebra2
Supporter
Username: Algebra2
Post Number: 3093
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 7:44 pm: |
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this thread brought to you by a bunch of fools. |
Mark Fuhrman
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 1431
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 10:46 pm: |
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Why Algebra, your voice seems to have changed. |
Michael Paris
Citizen
Username: Publius
Post Number: 3
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 5:09 pm: |
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Thanks to you also notehead for your kind words of encouragement. I'm new to Maplewood Online. Question: Why is the tone of discussion here so low and mean? (I say this knowing that the observation only invites those responsible to make the easy, snide remarks). Any thoughts?
Anyway, again, all are welcome to join us tomorrow (Saturday) in Maplewood Village, from 11 to 2, for Patriot Acts, a family-friendly, patriotic demonstration against the war in Iraq. I heard a rumor that Uncle Sam himself might make an appearance. |
Steve R Jones
Citizen
Username: Sjthinker
Post Number: 8
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 7:14 am: |
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I am holding my own rally that I need people to attend. It is called "Hemp Yes, War No". It promotes peace through the manufacturing of hemp based products (after obtaining massive amounts of hemp). After the anti-war rally, please stop on by. I know most of you at that rally already have some hemp on you... |
Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 5197
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 7:56 am: |
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Michael:
It would appear that not everyone on this thread agrees with stopping the war in Iraq in the manner you and Joel have proposed and/or with holding a public rally/demonstration to support that aim.
It does help to respond to probing questions, regardless of their tone, by having a clear (and in this case unified) idea of exactly what you are trying to accomplish by today's rally and specifically what you as an organization wish to have result from today's activity.
Welcome to MOL. I hope we will hear from you again on this and other topics which merit serious discussion and self-examination. |
L'Angelo Misterioso
Citizen
Username: Misterioso
Post Number: 50
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 8:15 am: |
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cjc, for months before the election in Iraq the UN said, over and over, that it was not possible to guarantee its legitimacy because the security situation there was so bad. Also, Iraq held elections last in 1984, not 1954. I'm happy to read facts in support of opinions in opposition to my own. They can either force me to do more research, rethink my ideas, or both! But please don't make things up to support your positions; it serves no useful purpose. Unless your purpose is to bamboozle people into believing things that aren't true. |
Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 1470
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 8:29 am: |
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Now that even Bush appointees like Porter Goss have admitted that invading Iraq made the U.S. less secure, it's hard to see how the U.S. soldiers in Iraq are "defending their country".
They're dying to save George from embarassment, which may be a meaningful death for some people. |
Lucky13
Citizen
Username: Lucky13
Post Number: 19
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 9:46 am: |
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michael-
it's because, among 26,000 people, there are a few right-wingers who can take the low road with the best of them. and, frankly, the war in iraq is very popular with ed koch-type "democrats," something maplewood has quite a few of. |
joeltfk
Citizen
Username: Joeltfk
Post Number: 138
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 9:55 am: |
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A final reminder to show up for "Patriot Days," a patriotic protest of the War in Iraq and a closer examination of how we were manipulated and misdirected into this mess.
Saturday (Today)
Maplewood Ricalton Square
11-2
"Uncle Sam" speaks at 12:30
 |
joeltfk
Citizen
Username: Joeltfk
Post Number: 139
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 9:58 am: |
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www.somastopthewar.org |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 3297
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 9:09 pm: |
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L'Mister -- I am gladly responding to your accusation of posting misinformation. I fear I've been the victim of the vast right wing conspiracy known as Associated Press that said plainly that these last elections were the first truly open and fair elections in Iraq in the last 50 years. Perhaps you can tell me -- wise one that you are -- the opposition to Saddam Hussein in 1984, the ballot of other people opposing the Baathists in lesser positions were there any, and also -- if any of them are alive today and when they ceased to be in relation to the date of the election as well.
I anxiously await your post and relish the opportunity to be as fully informed as you are. Please expound upon the totally free elections without undue influence that occured after the coup in 1968 by Baathists thusly:
July 20, 1968 - Coup by Baathist and Arab nationalist officers ousts President Abdul-Rahman Aref, who had succeeded his brother after his death in 1966. Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr becomes president. Days later he ousts non-Baathist allies.
Nov 1969 - Saddam Hussein joins RCC, becomes vice-chairman.
July 16, 1979 - Saddam becomes president after Bakr resigns.
June 20, 1980 - First parliamentary election since 1958. Baathists win 187 of 250 National Assembly seats.
Oct 1984 - Parliamentary election. Baathists win 73 percent.
July 25, 1988 - Saddam postpones parliamentary election.
March 1991 - Saddam promises multi-party system but later says Baath party will retain leading role.
Oct 15, 1995 - Saddam wins sole-candidate presidential referendum with more than 99 percent of vote.
March 24, 1996 - Baath party dominates parliamentary election. All candidates pledge support for Baathist principles.
Oct 15, 2002 - Saddam wins sole-candidate referendum which grants him another seven-year term.
Yours in freedom,
cjc
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Andrew N de la Torre
Citizen
Username: Delatorre
Post Number: 313
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 10:47 pm: |
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Thanks to the peace movement for bringing to light the inconsistancies and shear negligence of this current administration.
I would also like to see if any of those on either side of the fence are willing to put your action where your mouth is and make a change in your daily life to help lower dependence on oil.
Face it, the war wasn't about WMD's, had little to do with democracy and the stabilization that is so often talked about is to the keep to oil flowing.
If you have a diesel car, help start the Maplewood/South Orange Bio-diesel Cooperative. Bio-diesel is clean, helps American Farmers and decreases dependence on foreign oil. It takes 0.3 energy units to make 1 unit of bio-diesel, it takes 1.3 energy units to make 1 unit of petrol. Bio-diesel can even be sold to the town to run it's municiple vehicles.
After the demonstrations and vigils, what really changes?
It you want to sock it to the oil corporate fascists, don't buy their products.
Help start the Maplewood/SouthOrange Bio-diesel coorperative |
Strawberry Statement
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 4662
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 7:43 pm: |
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boring.. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 789
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 9:14 pm: |
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quote:boring..
Otherwise known as "I'm off my suspension, and need to let everyone know." |
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