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johnny
Citizen
Username: Johnny
Post Number: 1211
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 9:59 pm: | 
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What's going on here?
South Mountain Peace Action is having a "Be About Peace Day" on the 19th from 1-5 pm.
A new organization (just formed in Jan) called SOMA Committee to Stop the War is having "Patriot Acts" on the 19th from 11-2 pm.
What gives? Do I sense a little competition? Did some disgruntled Peace Action folks splinter off and start a new group?
Seems to me they should join forces, of course in a peaceful manner. |
Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 273
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 10:43 pm: |
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Johnny,
One small correction to your very astute observation:
South Mountain Peace Action's Be About Peace Day is made up of two parts:
First, Arts-and-Crafts-for-Peace from 1-5 pm in Maplewood Memorial Library. This event is designed especially for children, but adults will be able to enjoy making the projects as well.
One of the projects is the painting of a blue peace symbol on a canvass door-hanger. You may have noticed these on many homes in Maplewood just before the war began two years ago. They were made by children.
We'll have lots of our "Be About Peace" lawn signs as well as our new "Be About Peace" T-shirts available in the Library.
The second part of our Be About Peace Day will be held from 7-9 pm at the Ethical Culture Society at 516 Prospect Street.
We'll have music from two Columbia High School bands, "The Pubes" and "The Buzzards of Green Hill," as well as performances by the CHS MLK Gospel Choir.
There will also be at least one poetry reading.
We'll have an open forum for members of the public who wish to express their thoughts on the second anniversary of the war in Iraq.
There will be a number of surprise speakers as well.
I'll present an update on the status of South Mountain Peace Action's petition campaign urging our Senators and Congressmen to Speak Out Against the War in Iraq and to support an international solution led by the United Nations to allow a rapid return home of US soldiers.
We've presented nearly 1,300 signatures to Senators Corzine and Lautenberg and are setting up appointments with Congressmen Payne and Pascrell. I will report on the response thus far from the Senators and outline some of the next steps that we'll be taking in our campaign.
The day's events will culminate with a Candlelight Vigil in the Ethical Society's peace garden, where we'll dedicate a peace memorial that will be made at the Library in the afternoon.
The memorial will be dedicated to the American servicemen and women and the Iraqi civilians who have lost their lives in the war. It will also be dedicated to Betty Duffey, SMPA's former co-chair who died recently.
Be About Peace Day will inspire creativity, solemn rememberance and a renewed dedication to working for a peaceful world.
Everyone is invited to attend. It will be an uplifting experience.
Paul Surovell
Chair
South Mountain Peace Action
973-763-9493
paul4sure@aol.com
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joeltfk
Citizen
Username: Joeltfk
Post Number: 132
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 11:08 pm: |
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This is not so much competition as complementary points of view. SOMA Stop the War, as I see it, is more focused on a specific stance against the War in Iraq in particular. We applaud and support South Mountain Peace Action. We're just inclined to be a little louder. Maybe we just feel a little more angry.
Whatever opens more eyes and ears... |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 751
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 9:22 am: |
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There hasn't been a schism like this since the Judean People's Front-People's Front of Judea fiasco. |
Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 277
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 10:40 am: |
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Monty,
Which of the two was angry and loud?
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Michael Paris
Citizen
Username: Publius
Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 1:56 pm: |
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I write to disagree with my colleague jeotfk. We are both active members of South Orange/Maplewood Committee to Stop the War. SOMA Committee to Stop the War is not the "angry and loud" group. We agree with the principles of South Mountain Peace Action, and we applaud all the wonderful work that this group has done. We just believe that there is room to try some new strategies and tactics. In the Republic of Choice, there ought to be room for lots of efforts. People can and should plug in wherever they feel comfortable. Some members of our group belong to and participate in both groups. I for one plan to attend the South Mountain vigil on Saturday evening. Our demonstration on Saturday will be family-friendly and decidedly patriotic. We very much want to make a clear and civil statement about what patriotism really means. Come out and see for yourself, Saturday, 11 a.m., to 2 p.m., Maplewood Village. |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 753
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 3:31 pm: |
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How do I know where to "plug in" wherever I feel comfortable if I don't know what "be about peace" means?
I'm guessing you don't want to make this a Rally Against the War because Peace Vigil sounds more, I don't know, something. Are you just against the Iraq war, or all wars? Are you against the military, or U.S. foreign policy, or some combination thereof? Are you against all violence, or just violence you deem unnecessary?
Is there some powerpoint presentation I can peruse somewhere? I like to know what I'm crafting and vigiling for, exactly.
And Paul, I think you're thinking of the Judean Popular People's Front. Those splitters. |
Dave
Citizen
Username: Dave
Post Number: 5613
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 3:38 pm: |
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Splitter, you mean. The JPPF was just one guy. |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 754
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 4:56 pm: |
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I stand corrected. |
Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 278
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 8:31 pm: |
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Monty,
South Mountain Peace Action upholds the United Nations Charter as the standard for when military force is justified. This essentially means that military force is justified in self-defense or in response to an imminent threat. The use of military force can also be authorized by the UN Security Council.
South Mountain Peace Action initiated the Maplewood Township Committee resolution urging the President and Congress to refrain from acts of war against Iraq unless in self-defense or under imminent threat.
Our current petition calls for an international solution in Iraq, led by the United Nations and a rapid return home of US soldiers.
"Be About Peace" to me means advocating a policy of peace rather than the policy of war of the Bush administration.
The mechanism to achieve this in Iraq is articulated in our petition's call for an international solution led by the United Nations. This position is elaborated further in the January 27th speech by Senator Edward Kennedy, in which he also urged that a central role be played by Arab states in the region.
The words we use to describe the events of our "Be About Peace Day" -- Arts-and-Crafts-for-Peace and Candlelight Vigil -- are used because they accurately describe what will take place.
There will be many arts and crafts projects with the theme of peace offered for children and adults at the library from 1:00 to 5:00 and there will be a candlelight vigil at the Ethical Culture Society at the end of our evening session from 7:00 to 9:00 pm.
At the vigil we will dedicate a peace memorial that will be crafted at the library in the afternoon. The memorial will be dedicated to the American servicemen and women and the Iraqi civilians who have died in Iraq.
I hope you're "comfortable" with the above, but even if you're not, you're welcome to participate in both events. There will be an open forum when anyone from the public will be welcome to speak.
Please come and say your peace.
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Analog01
Citizen
Username: Analog01
Post Number: 56
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 9:31 pm: |
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Why is a public space being used to promote a partisan political agenda? This should not be held at teh public library.
While I applaud a memorial to our fallen American (and coalition I hope) soldiers, I see no reason to include Iraqi civilians.
Finally - the idea that the UN can lead anything is completely naive. |
sylvester the investor
Citizen
Username: Mummish
Post Number: 23
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 9:36 pm: |
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The U.N. has rendered itself worthless and you want to follow its guidelines. It can't enforce its own resolutions. Great principles to stand on.
If we had it your way the Russians would have won the cold war, the serbs would rule croatia, france would be speaking german, the japanese would own hawaii.
in the imortal words of your poor parties nominee.."its the wrong war, in the wrong place at the wrong time.... but if i had to do today I would vote again to authorize the use of force" |
Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 279
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 9:52 pm: |
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The references to World War II are rather absurd, since the UN's creation was based on the lessons learned by the allies.
The UN is not an independent body, but an institution that reflects the views of the nations of the world. It is truly the international community.
When given sufficient resources and allowed to do its job, the UN works effectively.
For example, had the Bush administration honored the UN Charter (which it is obligated to do under the Constitution) the UN inspection teams would have determined that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction.
More than 1,500 dead American soldiers would be alive today, and about 10,000 seriously injured soldiers would have been spared a lifetime of suffering.
More than 100,000 dead Iraqi civilians would be alive.
More than $160 billion of taxpayers' money would not have been wasted.
There would be thousands fewer terrorists in the world than there are today.
If only the UN Charter had been respected and the UN allowed to continue doing its job. |
Face
Citizen
Username: Face
Post Number: 525
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 10:01 pm: |
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Please explain to me Paul, is it possible to wage a good war? And I'm not referring to a metaphorical use of the word like say a war on "poverty" or "drugs". I'm talking about a good old fashioned shoot em up, bang, bang, war. A war in which one country engages another in battle.
Men die in war, so do women and innocents. Yet wars have always been waged fought and probably always will.
When is war ok? I must ask because the way you guys put it no war is good. Personally, I find that out of touch and avoiding reality. Wars are fought on the field of battle and not on TV in the livingrooms of Maplewoodians.
If the first day of the landing at Normandy had been shown live on CNN, (over 4,000 allied soldiers killed on that first day) what would the result have been? Peace movements, signs and protests? Could we have ever fought that war had it been available to wacth nightly broadcasts with imbeded reporters tipping us off to evry detail? |
Reflective
Citizen
Username: Reflective
Post Number: 828
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 10:18 pm: |
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Allowing the UN to do its job!
The UN military peacekeepers have raped the people they are supposed to protect in Africa,
the UN senior staff have ignored improving the country's conditions they are to improve, while living high on the hog,and preying on children,
Senior UN staff made millions on the Oil for Food and allowed Saddam to continue to suppress Iraqis.
The UN's human rights commission is composed of fascist regimes whose dictators kill their own people to maintain their control.
Kofi acknowledges all of the above examples, couched in the usual elitist, take no responsibility mumbo jumbo, and says the UN will make some changes.
And Paul you have the hubris to actually suggest that the UN is a solution?
All of my examples above and more, have been discussed in the NY Times. I am certain you have an explanation for each. But I expect more dissembling about how the USA sucks, and moreover is responsible for all of the above examples.
(If only, we gave more money, if only we said yassir master to the fascist elitists in charge of the UN, etc, the world would be at peace). |
joeltfk
Citizen
Username: Joeltfk
Post Number: 135
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 10:44 pm: |
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"While I applaud a memorial to our fallen American (and coalition I hope) soldiers, I see no reason to include Iraqi civilians."
That's because...
1) Americans are superior to Iraqis?
2) Iraqis are subhuman and therefore unworthy of sympathy?
3) The only casualities of War are U.S. soldiers and citizens?
4) Iraqi innocents somehow "asked for this"?
5) all of the above?
Your implication and disregard for humanity is, simply, frightening. Frightening. |
johnny
Citizen
Username: Johnny
Post Number: 1212
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 11:30 pm: |
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Not a very peaceful thread....
Let me get this straight. One group is against the Iraq War and the other group is... against the Iraq War. Can't we all just get along? |
Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 280
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 4:40 am: |
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Face,
Read what I said again. The UN Charter recognizes that war is justified when in self-defense or when under imminent threat.
Reflective,
Your examples are not well-taken, because you could substitute "US" for "UN" and find numerous examples in which we have committed the same offenses that you have attributed to the UN.
What you've cited applies to virtually all military and governmental institutions including our own.
But you've ignored my point, so I'll say it again: The United Nations did an excellent job of disarming Iraq of weapons of mass destruction. And it was in the process of verifying through inspections that Iraq was disarmed. It was not allowed to complete that job because the Bush admin wanted to carry out the neocon program of the Project for the New American Century -- to use military force to further US economic and political interests throughout the world.
This policy not only causes the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent civilians and the deaths and life-long injuries of thousands of American soldiers, it costs us hundreds of billions of dollars and it breeds terrorists who seek revenge against us by the tens of thousands. The CIA has recognized the last point.
The UN can do its job when allowed to do so and given the necessary resources. What is preventing this from happening is a President and his administration that embrace a policy of US domination through military power.
Most Americans and most of the world are against this.
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Reflective
Citizen
Username: Reflective
Post Number: 831
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 5:23 am: |
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Oh!
That explains it.... |
Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 281
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 6:30 am: |
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Do you agree that the UN effectively disarmed Iraq and was in the process of verifying that when prevented to complete its mission by the Bush administration's war of choice? |
Andrew N de la Torre
Citizen
Username: Delatorre
Post Number: 311
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 10:13 am: |
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Be about Peace?
Lawn signs are OK, but at the end of the day
what will change after this demonstration?
What are you doing at the Grassroots level?
Join the
The Maplewood/South Orange Bio-diesel Cooperative
Contact
Andrew de la Torre
delatoan@UMDNJ.EDU
According to a comparative life-cycle study by the US Department of Energy's National Renewable Energy Laboratory, biodiesel requires only 0.31 units of fossil energy to make 1 unit of fuel. "By contrast, it takes 1.2 units of fossil resources to produce 1 unit of petroleum diesel," the study says.
Biodiesel Facts
Biodiesel is much cleaner than fossil-fuel diesel ("dinodiesel"). It can be used in any diesel engine with no need for modifications -- in fact diesel engines run better and last longer with biodiesel. And it can easily be made from a common waste product -- used cooking oil.
• Biodiesel fuel burns up to 75% cleaner than conventional diesel fuel made from fossil fuels
• Biodiesel substantially reduces unburned hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide and particulate matter in exhaust fumes
• Sulphur dioxide emissions are eliminated (biodiesel contains no sulphur)
• Biodiesel is plant-based and adds no CO2 to the atmosphere
• The ozone-forming potential of biodiesel emissions is nearly 50% less than conventional diesel fuel
• Nitrous oxide (NOx) emissions may increase or decrease but can be reduced to well below conventional diesel fuel levels by adjusting engine timing
• Biodiesel exhaust is not offensive and doesn't cause eye irritation (it smells like French fries!)
• Biodiesel is environmentally friendly: it is renewable, "more biodegradable than sugar and less toxic than table salt" (US National Biodiesel Board)
• Biodiesel can be used in any diesel engine
• Fuel economy is the same as conventional diesel fuel
• Biodiesel is a much better lubricant than conventional diesel fuel and extends engine life -- a German truck won an entry in the Guinness Book of Records by travelling more than 1.25 million km (780,000 miles) on biodiesel with its original engine
• Biodiesel has a high cetane rating, which improves engine performance: 20% biodiesel added to conventional diesel fuel improves the cetane rating 3 points, making it a Premium fuel
• Biodiesel can be mixed with ordinary diesel fuel in any proportion -- even a small amount of biodiesel means cleaner emissions and better engine lubrication: 1% biodiesel will increase lubricity by 65%
• Biodiesel can be produced from any fat or vegetable oil, including waste cooking oil.
See the National Biodiesel Board's complete evaluation of biodiesel emissions and potential health effects, in accordance with the most stringent emissions testing protocols ever required by the US EPA (Acrobat file, 213 kb):
http://www.biodiesel.org/news/bulletin/1998/0498.pdf
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cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 756
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 2:06 pm: |
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Why don't you call it "Stop the War in Iraq"? Seems a little clearer than "Be About Peace." Since I'm guessing (even though you didn't say) that you are only about peace in certain situations. |
Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 282
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 2:42 pm: |
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Monty,
As I've written in some detail on this thread, our group is calling for an end to the war in Iraq through an international solution led by the United Nations and a rapid return home of US soldiers.
In my view, our call for an end to US involvement in Iraq through the restoration of the role of the United Nations, and by implication the restoration of the United Nations Charter, is "Being About Peace," making the name of our two-part event on Saturday fully appropriate.
We are also generally in favor of peaceful solutions to conflicts through the United Nations, but Saturday's event is a call for peace on the second anniversary of the war in Iraq.
We will be offering Be About Peace lawn signs and T-shirts at Maplewood Memorial Library from 1:00 to 5:00 pm, during our arts-and-crafts for peace activity.
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cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 757
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 6:24 pm: |
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So I can "Be About Peace" and still be for the death penalty, and the war in vietnam, and World War I? Or notsomuch?
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Peoples Records Music
Supporter
Username: Peoplesrecords
Post Number: 15
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 6:34 pm: |
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peace gear...
www.peacester.com |
Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 283
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 7:31 pm: |
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Monty,
I certainly don't question your right to define yourself any way that you like.
In the case of Iraq, one thing is clear -- President Bush chose war when a peaceful alternative was available. And that was how the message "Be About Peace" came to be. It was a call for peace as an alternative to the call for war by our President and his administration. |
Mark Fuhrman
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 1446
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 4:25 pm: |
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Monty: In a letter to Martin Buber during WWII, Gandhi said that he would rather people pick up a gun and fight their oppressor than to turn tail and run like cowards. But far better, for Gandhi, was to use nonviolence as an aggressive tactic to fight against oppression.
I do not want to get into a debate on nonviolence as a tactic (we can do that on another thread someday), but I just want to point out that even a "pacifist" like Gandhi (who was anything but passive) saw gradations in the concept of peace.
I think many in the peace movement are not so much opposed to all wars as they believe in war being the last alternative. Of course, defining when something is the last alternative, or when waiting would cause even more harm (a la Chamberlin), is the rub. |
Lucky13
Citizen
Username: Lucky13
Post Number: 21
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 10:54 am: |
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Mark-
It's really not "the rub."
There are many countries in the world, without significant oil resources and not located along pipeline routes, where the world has taken an appropriately restrained notion of intervention. South Africa comes to mind, Republicans refusing to endorse even sanctions there.
PS I hope "Mark Fuhrman" is your real name; I find the moniker offensive otherwise.
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Mark Fuhrman
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 1449
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 1:47 pm: |
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Lucky13: Unfortunately for you, I think you have completely and totally misunderstood what I posted. If you have some notion that I was supporting intervention in Iraq based on differing definitions of justified violence and plundering natural resources, you are barking at the moon from Pluto. What I was talking about is the conceptual problem faced by people opposed to one war and not another, or who say violence is justified in one situation but not another. It is a longstanding debate within the philosophical and tactical wings of the peace movement from at least WWI, and was an issue that even Plato and Homer wrestled with.
And, by the way, other than for someone who is an absolute pacifist in all circumstances, deciding when war is justified is indeed "the rub". I come from a perspective that says that not all people who supported the invasion of Iraq did so from pure greed or to plunder their oil reserves. In fact, while I am sure that oil and control of the Middle East factors into the neo-con world view that justified the war from Bush's point of view, that is not the justification for most of the Americans who support the war. Those who oppose the invasion need to speak to and educate these Americans who, like my father, believe that might makes right and that anything our military is involved in is sacred. One has to make clear arguments as to why this war at this time is the wrong war in the wrong place from an American point of view--and conspiracy theories (even if true) are not the way to successfully attack the issue.
PS: And I find your presumed presumption about me offensive. You have absolutely no idea who I am or what I think or what I believe. If you have a problem with my moniker, try PL'ing me and engage in a human discussion--you might be surprised what you find. Or perhaps go to the archives and reference the discussion of why some people chose their MOL moniker. |
Lucky13
Citizen
Username: Lucky13
Post Number: 25
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 2:24 pm: |
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MF-
The "conspiracy theory" as to the "rub" you postulate is that absent compelling economic predation we are far more isolationist that with them, to put it mildly. But the jingoists deny the economic motivation, wrapping their imperialism up in the flag and the bible. I'm sorry that seems to "not understand" what you posted.
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Andrew N de la Torre
Citizen
Username: Delatorre
Post Number: 312
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 10:10 pm: |
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Be about Peace means different things to different people. Make no mistake I am 110% against this so called war. I have great respect for people like Paul who bring the inconsistancies and shear negligence of this current administration to light.
However, within the peace movement we are often tagged as being without direction, unpatriotic, liberal or even weak. Unfortunately, there is some justification for that notion.
Part of the problem I see is that too many liberals, peace activists and democrats are not changing their daily lives to reduce our (addiction) dependence on foreign oil.
Face it, this adventure into the Middle East for "stabilization" has less to due with democracy and more to due with resources. ie oil.
I've been trying to get folks interested in energy conservation in Maplewood for over 2 years. Unfortunately, it's simply not an important enough issue. I've spoken to many folks about bio-diesel as an alternative to gas. All I get are odd stares.
Saying "Be about Peace" is great. But after the demonstration and vigil, what are we going to do at the grassroots level to end our addiction to oil.
My complaint is too few are willing to do anything that is an inconvenience to our indoctrinated routine. I urge those in the peace movement to put your efforts where your mouth is.
If you have a diesel car, help start the Maplewood/South Orange Bio-diesel Cooperative. If you own a Prius that great. Just remember Bio-diesel is clean, helps American Farmers and decreases dependence on foreign oil.
A TDI Jetta gets 47 MPG highway, 37 MPG city. A Prius still keeps you buying mostly foreign oil and the MPGs are not significantly different than a TDI Jetta, there's now even a TDI Passat on the market.
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