| Author | Message | ||
     Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 5860 Registered: 1-2003  |
Another criterion is whether it is useful at hunting, self defense, etc. That's why we are not allowed to own tanks, or at least I suspect we are not. | ||
| Lotts of guns Citizen Username: Lotts_of_guns Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2005 |
church in wisconsin atlanta courthouse female fire chief in NJ shot by "stray bullet" marvin gaye johnn lennon Democracy - freedom of thought Libertarianism - freedom from thought | ||
| Michael Janay Citizen Username: Childprotect Post Number: 1727 Registered: 1-2003  |
Democracy - freedom of thought Libertarianism - freedom from thought You've got that backwards. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 766 Registered: 5-2004  |
actually, it's: empty, pithy comments = freedom from thought participation in self-government (whatever form it takes) = freedom of thought | ||
| Lotts of guns Citizen Username: Lotts_of_guns Post Number: 3 Registered: 3-2005 |
You've got that backwards... not from what I've read but let's not let this fall into pithy comments - someone might get pithed off. back to the issues. the fact is guns were used to kill these people. no guns, they would not have been killed. | ||
| Michael Janay Citizen Username: Childprotect Post Number: 1728 Registered: 1-2003 |
the fact is guns were used to kill these people. no guns, they would not have been killed. Unless they were stabbed. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 5891 Registered: 1-2003 |
I often sense that my feelings about guns and gun control are not shared by many. I abhor wide gun ownership, but I don't favor restrictive laws. Guns do make killing more convenient, and I do believe they therefore increase killing. But I believe that an attempt to abolish them would be in vain. The fact that enough people believe they help makes it impossible to do away with them or even reduce their plenty significantly. And they do help, sometimes, too, as protection. Sometimes, just displaying it is enough to scare off the bad guy. That's not enough reason for me to want to own one, though. It works for some people. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 771 Registered: 5-2004 |
MJ, I'm curious. With your experience in self defense, do you feel you are more ilkely to be killed if confronted by someone with a knife or a gun? No, I'm not anti-gun. I don't own one, nor do I want one. I've shot a bit when I was younger. But I do support theright to own a gun. Carrying it is another issue entirely, though. I actually support most of hte gun laws that are already in place. I just wish they would be enforced. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2957 Registered: 12-2001  |
Rastro, Have you ever seen a drive by knifing? It ain't pretty and you probably thought Glocks were bad. Picture it. A car full of thugs throwing knives out the window. Leaves a huge mess. Somebody has to pick up all those knives. | ||
| Lotts of guns Citizen Username: Lotts_of_guns Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2005 |
Rastro, what gun laws were not being enforced that, had they been, would have prevented any of my small random selection of otherwise avoidable killings. And how do you enforce them before the killing occurs? MJ - Headlines we will not see "Malvo kills 10 through expert use of Bushmaster sniper knives thrown from trunk of car 200 yards from victims" "Newark Fire Captain injured by stray knife throwing" TomR - why do you abhor wide gun ownership ? | ||
| Michael Janay Citizen Username: Childprotect Post Number: 1729 Registered: 1-2003 |
Confronted with a knife... I feel pretty confident that I can handle just about anyone attacking me with a knife... But its something I've trained extensively for, and the odds are that I wouldn't come away uncut, just not cut too seriously. Confronted with a gun, I'd run: 90% of the time he won't shoot, Of the times he does shoot, 90% of the time he'll miss, Of the 10% of those shots that actually hit, 90% of those won't be fatal. So your best odds against a gun are to run, fast and erratically. Basically I feel I'd be less likely to be killed than just standing there and giving in to whatever the attacker wants. Lennon, Gaye, they would have been killed with or without a gun. Gaye's father would have found another way to do it if he didn't have a gun, to think otherwise is silly. Same goes for Lennon. Their killers were crazies and would have done what they did with or without a gun. And Tjohn, I've seen a knifing, it ain't pretty. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 5894 Registered: 1-2003 |
Lotts, I don't know why. Maybe I don't. Maybe it's just the widespread violence that gets to me. I like the way "Bowling for Columbine" left a lot of questions unanswered. | ||
| Michael Janay Citizen Username: Childprotect Post Number: 1730 Registered: 1-2003 |
So you want to get rid of ALL guns, not just handguns? MmmHmm. | ||
| Lotts of guns Citizen Username: Lotts_of_guns Post Number: 6 Registered: 3-2005 |
MJ - I am really confused. It seems that guns are really not very effective. So we hardly need them for self defense if they are so crappy. So we don't really need them now do we? TomR- I don't like the violence either. That's why I don't think we need the guns. You should make a decision here - being on the fence when the guns are already out there causing mayhem is no good. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 5896 Registered: 1-2003 |
But while guns are an essential component of much of the violence, some arguments in favor of keeping them are: 1. Many attempts at reducing or eliminating them are in vain and are likely to backfire. 2. They help in defense in many cases. Sorry, there just is no perfect solution, even if calling your attention to that reality "being on the fence". Moore points out that the gun ownership rate is the same in Canada as in the US, but the violence rates are very different. Men of a certain age group in Switzerland are REQUIRED to own guns. Their violence rate is extremely low. I don't claim these are correlated, but it shows that gun ownership is not necessarily correlated to rates of violence. | ||
| Lotts of guns Citizen Username: Lotts_of_guns Post Number: 7 Registered: 3-2005 |
But we live in America, not Switzerland, TomR and we can see the results. In America guns are correlated to killing. As others have written, before we decide the problem is too complex to fix, do we agree that there is a problem. MJ Libby think all the killing is fine. Do you? If no-one thinks there is a problem we certainly can't fix it. But if we do think there is a problem then we can begin to fix it. To use as an argument not to attempt to fix a problem because previous attempts have failed does not progress the issue. So TomR, MJ, Libby - do we have a problem in the amount of gun killing in the US? | ||
| Lucky13 Citizen Username: Lucky13 Post Number: 14 Registered: 2-2005 |
society regulates many substances due to the idea that people do bad things as a result of having/ingesting them. i'm pro-gun, and also pro-legalization. it's unfortunate so many right-wing trash who are pro-gun are also anti-legalization of substances like marijuana. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 773 Registered: 5-2004 |
Lotts, I don't know enough about the situations to say. But even had guns been banned, as MJ points out, at least some of those killings would have happened. Lennon and Gaye were killed at close range. That much I do know. And as MJ indirectly points out, a knife is a much more precise weapon because it is always used at close range. but either way, I was not responding to that part of your comment with my "pithy, empty comments" comment. it was your broad generalization "Democracy - freedom of thought, Libertarianism - freedom from thought" MJ, I'm intersted in those 90% numbers. Might I ask where you got them? I don't doubt them (heck, even cops who are trained in firearms don't have great marksmanship in the real world) - I'm just curious as to where they came from. I'm also curious if you have statistics on the fatality rates of knife attacks vs gun attacks. A big part of our culture in one of violence. People will find a way to hurt each other, whatever the weapon. Yes, it's easier to hurt more people at once with a gun, but most killings are by someone known to the victim, and are "heat of hte moment"-type crimes, from what I've read. So picking up a knife can be just as easy as picking up a gun. | ||
| Walker Citizen Username: Fester Post Number: 81 Registered: 4-2003  |
License all guns and make it a yearly license with the provision that the gun has to be produced for licensing every year. If you fail to produce the gun for licencing you should be required to produce documentation of a sale and a copy of the new owners license or a police report if stolen. If you are found in possession of an unlicensed gun you should go to jail regardless of circumstance, if you have an unlicensed gun in your possession then you mean to cause someone harm. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 5900 Registered: 1-2003 |
Lotts, careful about putting words into people's mouths. That won't lead to better understanding. Yes, we have a violence problem. Yes, there is a correlation with gun ownership. But as statisticians say, CORRECTLY, correlation does not prove causality. I don't believe in "do something, anything, as long as it's something" and that seems to be the motivation of some -- but certainly not all -- gun legislation. In fact, it's the motivation for a lot of legislation of any kind, even when there are good intentions behind it. |
