| Author | Message | ||
     sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10181 Registered: 10-2001  |
Dearest Tom, Which Palestinians were you referring to? ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <---- | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10182 Registered: 10-2001 |
It may be time for Sharon to make them into hordes of martyrs. Enough is enough. http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/22/mideast/index.html ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <---- | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 1141 Registered: 5-2001 |
The ones who are fighting, a.k.a., the terrorists. Et vouz? My post, by the way, was addressed to Hello; and my point was, what they are fighting for is not a whole hell of a lot. A few settlement pockets on the West Bank is really all that might have been up for grabs. --> Trying not to get sucked into a moral vacuum <-- | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10183 Registered: 10-2001 |
Where I once had sympathy, I now have nothing but unending anger. The Palestinians - those in charge and those who are followers - have squandered and killed every chance for peace. Even when they elect someone who is a moderate and seems willing to move forward, there is no concerted effort to make it so. All we see and hear are that the Israelis are the cause. At some point Israel needs to really take the gloves off. I think we crossed that line the other day. Sharon is going to blow the living hell out of the West Bank soon and it's going to make all of the violence from the last few years look like a water gun fight. And I can't blame him. ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <---- | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 1675 Registered: 12-2001  |
What do you propose that Sharon do that hasn't be done already? | ||
| Flt Citizen Username: Flt Post Number: 77 Registered: 3-2003 |
There are two roads. One is to keep trying to find a peaceful solution and the other is to fight to the death. Everyone must choose peace. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 336 Registered: 3-2003 |
Tjohn: "It is more comforting to believe that one man controls everything since, theoretically, that same person could order peace." Not really. Israelis know Arafat has never been able to order peace. He has only ever been able to ride the tiger he did not calm but rather helped enrage via corruption and incitement. Until the US put pressure on the Palestinian Authority to appoint an accountable finance minister this year, Arafat had complete control of all PA finances, including all financial support from the EU and US, and tax and other remittances from Israel to the PA. This money was used to enrich Arafat himself and pay off Fatah militants, not to mention controlling the more moderate young guard that had been out to unseat him for several years. Arafat also paid Hamas and Islamic Jihad to support their "martyrdom" operations. Planning and executing suicide attacks is very expensive and requires months of planning. Arafat has been supplied money and arms, for the express purpose of continuing suicide attacks, by Iran and Saudi Arabia. (Iraq, as we all have heard, provided recompense for the families of martyrs.) E.g., the Karine A weapons shipment intercepted by Israel, in addition to being in violation of every agreement the Pals had signed onto at Oslo and still expected Israel to uphold even after the second intifada was ignited, was paid for by Saudis and supplied by some part of the Iranian government. (Frankly, I was surprised to learn that Arafat was dealing with the mullahs in Iran, but he was.) It's thought that Hizballah is providing training, at least; and arms shipments to Gaza are smuggled routinely through underground tunnels from Egypt. Personally, I suspect al Qaeda cells may have links with Hamas, Jihad, and possibly Hizballah, based on the nature and timing of some recent attacks in Iraq, Jordan, Israel and Indonesia. Arafat may or may not be involved with direction, but he has been able to reign in attacks temporarily in the past, when it suited him. He could have helped enforce the pseudo-hudna, but he didn't. "If, on the other hand, groups like Hamas are going to pursue the destruction of Israel regardless of "official" Palestinian decisions, then there won't be peace any time soon." They are going to. There won't be any peace in our lifetimes. If you have any doubt of this, consult the Middle East Media Research Institute, www.memri.org, which provides translations of press and other reports from the mideast and Arab or Muslim news sources and editorials abroad; the latter, of course, are invariably more liberal, and give one hope, but Muslim and Arab commentators in London and Paris don't seem to have much credibility with the the 17 year olds in Gaza and Ramallah. Meanwhile, the human scum who train toddlers to carry Kalashnikovs and sing songs about watering the land with their martyr's blood are much more in vogue. All that said, dispensing with Arafat in such a way that he does not become a martyr himself is likely the best way to move forward slightly. But only slightly. This problem is generational and may require NATO or (Lord help us) UN forces in Palestine. Flt: "There are two roads. One is to keep trying to find a peaceful solution and the other is to fight to the death. Everyone must choose peace." Pardon me while I snort. Everyone isn't going to choose peace. What's your Plan Number Two, Mr. Bond? Tjohn: "What do you propose that Sharon do that hasn't be done already?" Are you kidding? Perhaps it is American optimism that impedes you from contemplating just exactly what Israel is (and has always been) capable of. Let's put it on the table: if things get bad enough, and I'm talking about all-out war, we could see massive displacement of Palestinians across the Jordan river--IOW, ethnic cleansing. That would be the end of King Abdullah, by the way, or else we'd see a second Black September. (Which reminds me, Hello: while you're calculating complicities and villainies and so on, do try to keep in mind that Arabs have shed more Arab blood in the 20th century than anyone else; it seems to be the only thing that keeps Arab religious extremists subjugated to Arab socialist thugs. Pray consult the ghost of Hafiz al Assad, for instance, about what happened in Hama in 1982, or ask yourself why the Lebanese architect of the Sabra and Shatila massacres went on to serve in the Lebanese parliament for years afterward, until he was assasinated (maybe, maybe not) by your bete noir Sharon. Funny, isn't it, how Arabs can slaughter each other blue in the name of Islam or pan-Arabism or Bathism or whatever, but when it comes to Jewish self-determination, suddenly we see state press organs publishing crap about Muslim blood being used in Passover matzohs, the nonexistence of that silly little Holocaust the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem offered Hitler a hand in executing, and Zionists "polluting" Arab land with their presence). The United States, in invading Iraq, has taken the inevitable war, that would have sucked us in eventually, directly to the despots and their equally vile totalitarian Islamist challengers. I don't know whether we will win or draw, but we weren't going to get our oil on the cheap forever. This is the price we pay for living in the world; it's frightening as all hell, but this is what it is. By the way, I'm unabashedly for Israel, despite its faults. I'm for the Kurds. I'm also for the moderate quasi-Islamist democrats in Turkey. I'm for the democratic youth movement in Iran, which the US supports through international pressures and CIA interventions. When the Palestinians develop a political structure capable of running a semi-liberal, reasonably peaceful state--it doesn't even have to be democratic!--then I'll be for them, too, just like I was before they proved to the entire, willfully naive world that their leaders, and those manipulating things from the sidelines, want nothing like peace and will not accept the existence of a Jewish state in their midst. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 337 Registered: 3-2003 |
Sbenois: "Sharon is going to blow the living hell out of the West Bank soon and it's going to make all of the violence from the last few years look like a water gun fight." Not yet. Bush just froze all Hamas assets; I think that was a token to Sharon, to stay his hand a little and warn the Pals that they're near the edge of hell. Plus, the Lebanese border just calmed down again, so that probably means we have laid down the law (again) in Damascus. But keep your eye on Shebaa Farms (Har Dov). Yes, I think we will see more violence in the WB, and soon; but Armageddon is still a little ways off. It won't happen without extensive consultation with the US. | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10184 Registered: 10-2001 |
Dearest J. Crohn, That was the single best post I've ever read on MOL. There's not much else to say. ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <---- | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 1676 Registered: 12-2001 |
J. Crohn, There is no particular optimism that prevents me from understanding what we and Israel have the power to do. I just wonder what kind of people we will be after we do it. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 1806 Registered: 9-2001 |
“I just wonder what kind of people we will be after we do it.” I hate to say this, but maybe alive! Alive and finally able live in peace and not in fear of when, where, and how we'll meet our maker... This terrorist movement has no respect for human life, not even their own. Maybe those who want peace should draw a line in the sand and allow everyone who wants to live their life in peace to cross over. Those who remain should prepare to lie down with their virgins.... | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 1677 Registered: 12-2001 |
This tough talk is all well and good. What is it that people propose we do? Kill all the men between the ages of 15 and 40? Expel all Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza and assume responsibility for yet more refugee camps? It is very problematic for a democracy to apply the types of measures that may be needed to stop this terrorism. | ||
| doublea Citizen Username: Doublea Post Number: 266 Registered: 3-2003 |
J.Crohn: I agree with Mr. S.about your post.It was probably not only the best post ever on MOL, but the most powerful. I cerainly intend to print it. I am extremely proud and honored to have you living here in our community. Thank you. | ||
| OK, it's Straw Man Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 974 Registered: 10-2001 |
Agreed with Sebonis and the rest. Excellent job by JCrohn. Thank You. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 1808 Registered: 9-2001 |
“This tough talk is all well and good. Expel all Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza and assume responsibility for yet more refugee camps?” NO! “It is very problematic for a democracy to apply the types of measures that may be needed to stop this terrorism.” YES! “What is it that people propose we do? Kill all the men between the ages of 15 and 40?” Whatever it takes… I realize this is tough talk, but lets think about it a little more. Here’s the choice, live life in peace, or die. Everyone gets to pick! If we want to avoid Jcrohn’s prediction, someone better come up with some kind of a plan pretty soon… How frustrating to see the daily murder and destruction…. Do we just keep talking about it, or what? Here’s one idea, maybe others will come up with something better? 1. UN troops go town-by-town, and blockade the entire perimeter. 2. All residents are encouraged to sign a peace treaty and leave the town. 3. All Palestinians must also sign to accept the Jews and live in peace. 4. All Jews must agree to accept Palestinians right to have their own state. 5. All those who remain in the city should prepare to meet their maker. 6. Un troops destroy all weapons and turn over the town to the Palestinians. 7. When the city is cleared out all residents can hopefully return to live in peace. Some say the world was created in seven days, why not recreate it in seven steps? ___________________________________________________________________ Waiting for an all-day Jitney, less traffic and more parking all around our community... | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 338 Registered: 3-2003 |
The only rational solution to the Israeli-Palestinian problem I have seen articulated thus far has been put forward by former Shin Bet chief Ami Ayalon and the impeccable Palestinian spokesman Sari Nusseibeh. They have formed an organization called HaMifkad HaLeumi (Voice of the People) whose website outlines their joint poisition, now signed onto by tens of thousands of Pals and Israelis: http://www.mifkad.org.il/eng/PrinciplesAgreement.asp Unfortunately, I see no way, as yet, for it to get implemented. Part of the problem, I think, is the disunity of the west. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 1810 Registered: 9-2001 |
"The only rational solution to the Israeli-Palestinian problem I have seen articulated thus far has been put forward by former Shin Bet chief Ami Ayalon and the impeccable Palestinian spokesman Sari Nusseibeh." So if you see no way to get it implemented, what's the point? "Yes, I think we will see more violence in the WB, and soon; but Armageddon is still a little ways off. It won't happen without extensive consultation with the US." I made a suggestion, so what solution can you offer to counter the warnings you gave, and the plan that you see no way to get implemented? | ||
| montagnard Citizen Username: Montagnard Post Number: 22 Registered: 6-2003 |
If we could drop the good-versus-evil and unending anger for a moment... If it's defined as a religious conflict, Israel will lose. Numbers and oil money will make the Moslems the dominant force in the region. In the long run, the U.S., which is increasingly dependent on imported oil, will have to side with the Moslems. If it's defined as a regional conflict between two groups claiming the same territory, then there is a possibility that something along the lines of Crete or Northern Ireland may be worked out over the next several decades. There is no immediate solution. However, anyone who wants Israel to survive as a political entity should logically support the narrowing of the conflict, not its extension. Frankly, I would expect both sides to cheat on their agreements, if only because they are composite entities where the central authorities do not have complete control. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 1684 Registered: 12-2001 |
J. Crohn, Why on earth did the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem support Adolf Hitler? | ||
| hello Citizen Username: Hello Post Number: 78 Registered: 7-2003 |
tjohn- mmaybe for the same reason henry ford, charles lindbergh, and even, arguably, gerald r. ford did? political expediency unknowing of the true horrors? or are white republicans exempt from your heinously racist dialogue here? |
