| Author | Message | ||
     sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10540 Registered: 10-2001  |
Even with people like Osama. Amazing. It's bad enough that Howard Dean calls the bastard by his first name, as if he deserves an ounce of dignity, but the mere fact that Dean can't even form a no-question-about-it opinion of bin laden's guilt because he wants to show that he's a supporter of (inter?)national law, is sickening. Dean is a sniveling embarrassment to the Democratic Party. He is gutless, shameless and deserves the scorn of every American who understands that bin laden is GUILTY WITHOUT DOUBT. After all, bin laden ADMITTED HIS GUILT AND GLADLY TOOK RESPONSIBILITY FOR (9/11) Had Dean said, let's try the creep, although we all know he's guilty as all hell, because it would prove to him and his murdering supporters that they are not above international law, I would have accepted it. But he didn't. And there's a very big difference between the two. Okay, now it's Nohero's turn to defend Dean and tell me that there was nothing wrong with what he said. P.S. Dean's statement later in the day, issued to quell anger, is not good enough. http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/12/26/elec04.prez.dean.bin.laden/index.html ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- Hey, it also wouldn’t look good coming out of a motel with your wife’s best friend saying you were just planning a surprise birthday party for her husband...- Arturo November '03 | ||
| bobk Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 4144 Registered: 5-2001 |
There is no question that Dean has an uncommon ability to put his size 12 EEE foot in his mouth on a regular basis. However, is it proper for the Executive branch to be judge,jury and executioner and pronounce guilt before a trial? In the unlikely event we capture OBL alive (it is proving hard to capture him in Pakistan and he, according to Newsweek, is prepared to die instead of being captured) what do we do with him? Another "Deanism" that got him in trouble was his comment that the capture of SH didn't make us, more specifically the troops in Iraq, safter. This may very well be true, because the resistance/terrorists no longer are tied to his regime in the minds of the Iraqi street. None of the aboe should be interpreted as support for Dean nor indicating that OBL and SH shouldn't be given a fair trial and then shot or hanged. | ||
| Montagnard Citizen Username: Montagnard Post Number: 311 Registered: 6-2003 |
One of the most important aspects of a trial is that evidence can be placed in the public record that will withstand later attempts to turn him into some kind of martyr for the Islamist cause. This is sound judgement on Dean's part, and it's unfortunate that more political figures cannot see this clearly. | ||
| Sylad Citizen Username: Sylad Post Number: 119 Registered: 6-2002 |
Using his first name.... Still waiting for someone to give me fact based reasons why I should vote for a Dem and what experience they have to lead our nation during this time.....waiting...and waiting... | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2002 Registered: 12-2001  |
Sylad, I wouldn't lose sleep waiting. In any election with an incumbent, you have a known track record versus and unknown track record. In any case, it doesn't much matter since most people have already formed their opinions about Bush's foreign policy. There does seem to be a certain percentage of fair weather sports fans who will support the war in Iraq as long as it is going well. I think the current increase in support for Bush will decline if the security situation in Iraq returns to the pre-Saddam-capture level. It seems that the only new wrinkle in the election is the question of an amendment to block gay marriage or gay civil unions. It's so sad to see an issue that has no daily impact on the lives of heterosexuals become such a divisive distraction on the national scene. | ||
| United Strawberry of America Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 1627 Registered: 10-2001 |
Gay marriages can wait a few more years. Now is not the time to address it. While I have no problem with it, I just don't think it's very important to the American people as a whole. "We won't always have the strongest military" --Howard Dean "Most competent and qualified kindergarden teachers can tell you who the 5 kids are in his or her class likely to wind up in prison 15 - 20 years from now." --Howard Dean | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10541 Registered: 10-2001 |
One of the most important aspects of a trial is that evidence can be placed in the public record that will withstand later attempts to turn him into some kind of martyr for the Islamist cause. No one doubts that holding a trial, if and when we catch him, is important. It is important to demonstrate that we are a nation of laws. But there is no reason to give bin laden a sliver of doubt on his being presumed innocent. He's not innocent. He's guilty. I don't personally feel that Osama deserves the presumption of innocence. I think the overwhelming majority of Americans would agree with that sentiment. Dean must remember, in his would be, but will never happen role of being the President, that he is supposed to be our elected leader, not defense counsel for our enemies. This is sound judgement on Dean's part, and it's unfortunate that more political figures cannot see this clearly. It's not sound judgement on Dean's part, it's sheer stupidity. It's why he was forced to change his story later in the day. ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- Hey, it also wouldn’t look good coming out of a motel with your wife’s best friend saying you were just planning a surprise birthday party for her husband...- Arturo November '03 | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2004 Registered: 12-2001 |
Bin Laden is best apprehended dead. I can't see a public trial helping us one bit, no matter how you slice it. Same with Saddam. At least with Saddam, however, a public trial might be good for Iraqis. | ||
| 1-2many Citizen Username: Wbg69 Post Number: 779 Registered: 6-2002 |
Dean needs to get with it, and realize that the US complies with international law only when it suits the agenda of those in power. the majority of Americans believe OBL is guilty? how can you know that? because that's the picture the obedient media paint? quite often, what the public thinks is very different from the party line spread quite ably by the media. I have more confidence in Americans. I would expect that they support adhering to the rule of law. would that they only knew how the US has flouted this. would that that story were told here. furthermore, what the evidence is likely to show is that responsibility for 9-11 lies with al Qaeda, but probably not OBL himself, who, remember, is sequestered in a cave somewhere, deliberately unplugged from much of the world and even much of his own network. (to use the Saddam example - it simply was not possible to coordinate military activities from the foxhole he was found in. OBL's physical situation is likely very similar. on a practical level, it's just extremely unlikely.) SO, when we try and convict al Qaeda, does that also lead to the trial and conviction of those that organized, trained, and armed them? because that would of course include many Americans, including high-ranking officials... including those lauded as being such "experienced" members of the Bush admin. oh, they're experienced, all right. they're well-versed in perpetrating terror in the world, and well-experienced in spreading US dogma. the REAL answer to this dilemna is not just blindly marching forward to more and more death, or cheering on those that do. the REAL answer is asking why is it that terror has come home to roost? and, what are the US' own actions and omissions that have created or fostered anti-Americanism in the Arab world? (the answer here is not democracy, progress or freedom, btw) it is not insignificant that US sanctions against Iraq in the 1990's were a great contributor to the horrifying conditions in Iraq, nor that the US both directly and indirectly strengthened Hussein. it is, in significant part, those actions that have led to anger and anti-Americanism in the Arab world, including among al Qaeda. and it is also the US' support of Israel's terrorist acts that has fueled anti-Americanism. and when I say support, I mean support including providing the weaponry, funding, etc. (not to pass off the US as just an aider/abettor here; quite the opposite is true - the US is also guilty of many terrorist acts.) so the real dilemna we face is, what do we do to remedy and curb the anti-humanitarian actions of the US in the world, to avoid adding to the cycle of terror and other violence? | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10542 Registered: 10-2001 |
Taken from the most absurd post of 2003. ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- Hey, it also wouldn’t look good coming out of a motel with your wife’s best friend saying you were just planning a surprise birthday party for her husband...- Arturo November '03 | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10543 Registered: 10-2001 |
Oh what the hell, I might as well just show the whole award winning post:
---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- Hey, it also wouldn’t look good coming out of a motel with your wife’s best friend saying you were just planning a surprise birthday party for her husband...- Arturo November '03 | ||
| 1-2many Citizen Username: Wbg69 Post Number: 780 Registered: 6-2002 |
what's absurd are the justifications for the war machine. what's absurd is that so much information is kept from us, and so much MISinformation is fed to us. sure, it's good for business, but it's incredibly bad for human life, in the US, in Afghanistan, in Iraq - everywhere except the insulated world of the ultra-wealthy. why should anyone be surprised that Iraq, even headless, is resisting US invasion? wouldn't the US do the very same thing? | ||
| United Strawberry of America Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 1634 Registered: 10-2001 |
1 to 2 many. I'm sitting here with 5 others and all of us just loved your last post. I still have tears in my eyes from laughing so hard.. "We won't always have the strongest military" --Howard Dean "Most competent and qualified kindergarden teachers can tell you who the 5 kids are in his or her class likely to wind up in prison 15 - 20 years from now." --Howard Dean | ||
| 1-2many Citizen Username: Wbg69 Post Number: 781 Registered: 6-2002 |
yeah, ACTUAL democracy and aderence to a rule of law are pretty laughable. "One might recall another recent illustration of Wolfowitz's love of democracy. The Turkish parliament, heeding its population's near-unanimous opposition to war in Iraq, refused to let U.S. forces deploy fully from Turkey. This caused absolute fury in Washington. Wolfowitz denounced the Turkish military for failing to intervene to overturn the decision. Turkey was listening to its people, not taking orders from Crawford, Texas, or Washington, D.C. The most recent chapter is Wolfowitz's "Determination and Findings" on bidding for lavish reconstruction contracts in Iraq. Excluded are countries where the government dared to take the same position as the vast majority of the population. Wolfowitz's alleged grounds are "security interests," which are non-existent, though the visceral hatred of democracy is hard to miss -- along with the fact that Halliburton and Bechtel corporations will be free to "compete" with the vibrant democracy of Uzbekistan and the Solomon Islands, but not with leading industrial societies. What's revealing and important to the future is that Washington's display of contempt for democracy went side by side with a chorus of adulation about its yearning for democracy. To be able to carry that off is an impressive achievement, hard to mimic even in a totalitarian state." from Selective memory and a dishonest doctrine December 21, 2003 Opinion piece for the Toronto Star by Noam Chomsky http://monkeyfist.com/ChomskyArchive/essays/selective_html | ||
| United Strawberry of America Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 1636 Registered: 10-2001 |
boring "We won't always have the strongest military" --Howard Dean "Most competent and qualified kindergarden teachers can tell you who the 5 kids are in his or her class likely to wind up in prison 15 - 20 years from now." --Howard Dean | ||
| Tom Reingold the prissy-pants Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 1526 Registered: 1-2003  |
It was really stupid of Dean to say that the world isn't safer with Hussein captured. Never mind that it might be true. How could that make the troops feel? Either unsafe (though not likely) but certainly unappreciated. Safire had a good editorial on, I think, Wednesday, saying why he feared Dean losing. Interesting, coming from him, of all people. But he's a pretty smart guy, no matter where he stands, and his predictions seem to be coming true. Tom Reingold There is nothing | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 412 Registered: 8-2003  |
Tom, Dean said the US is not safer with Hussein in custody. The recent Orange alert seems to bear out his conclusion. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 1704 Registered: 5-2001 |
With this kind of attitude, Dean's concerns about a jury trial are moot. | ||
| Tom Reingold the prissy-pants Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 1527 Registered: 1-2003 |
Dr. O'Boogie, don't get me wrong. I'm in the "anybody but Bush" camp. So I think it's important to beat him. I think Dean is doing the wrong things to that end. I think there are times to show that you're a big enough man to give credit when it's due. Capturing Hussein is one of those times. I think giving credit to Bush and everyone else involved would have put Dean in a better position for mentioning Bush's true weaknesses. The capture was a real accomplishment. Dean is trying to be a politician, yet he didn't act very politically with this statement, even with the correction you provided. Tom Reingold There is nothing | ||
| Tom Reingold the prissy-pants Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 1528 Registered: 1-2003 |
tom, you seem to think that facts are relevant to the voters' opinions. Presentation is everything. The Americans are not aware that Bush doesn't care about OBL's whereabouts. Or they just don't want to hear about it. This is why Bush's team is so effective. They really know what they're doing. Tom Reingold There is nothing |
