| Author | Message | ||
     tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 2988 Registered: 3-2004 |
Anyone have any info on this? I heard it was not US forces bombing this village on the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan, inside Pakistan. Men, women and children in three houses were attacked. Seventeen were killed. Someone was trying to kill Al-Zawahiri. The report I heard this morning said the Pentagon was fairly sure they didn't get him, and was conducting DNA tests on human remains. Now, Pakistan has lodged a formal complaint (against the US?) regarding the bombing. What's going on? Where are we supposed to go over the next few decades to avoid the wrath of other nations about our behavior toward them? Is anyone concerned about the survival of the human race? Is this collateral damage acceptable, when you aren't even sure your target is where you think he is? I thought we were trying to win hearts and minds. Is this the way to do it? Now I see it was the CIA. So, if you think someone who might be important among terrorists is in a specific location, but you're not sure, and you know there are lots of other people there, including families and children, it's OK to kill them and possiby get someone who might still be influential among our enemies. Someone please tell me how this is justified. Anyone....even Straw. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10275 Registered: 5-2001 |
When I first saw this on CNN yesterday evening I was surprised that we conducted an air strike inside Pakistan. If you will recall a year or so ago Pakistan thought they had Al-Zawahiri bottled up in a similar village on the border with Afghanistan. The Pakistan Army fought a pitched battle with the local "farmers", losing dozens of soliders and in the end Al-Zawahiri escaped. The intensity of the resistance is a pretty strong indicator that the Evil Doctor was there. This time no chances were taken. I suspect that the CIA drones attacked with the tacit (a wink and a nod) approval of Pakistan and the protest is more proforma than anything else. The last thing we want to do is force regime change in Pakistan, where the likely result would be a nuclear armed Taliban style regime. I think that the Pakistanis are allowing us to do DNA testing is an indication they aren't totally dispeleased with what happened. Collateral damage happens and I think it can be justified under the theroy that those who harbor terrorists do so at their own risk. Do I like it? No, but stuff happens. I only hope that Al-Zawahiri was killed. One report I saw on CNN indicated that Bin Ladin and Al-Zawahiri had been moving freely in the border area, even crossing into Afghanistan for meetings to rally the troops. ps: a cow was also killed and I am sure PETA will chime in shortly on that subject. | ||
| Duncan Supporter Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 5571 Registered: 12-2001  |
A Cow was killed??? Holy •••• thats all we need is for Pamela Anderson to head to Pakistan... wait a second now... | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 2989 Registered: 3-2004 |
New York Times reported that villagers said that Al-Zawahari has never been to their town. Are these the same Pakistanis who are living in tents in the winter because of the earthquake? Where's the humor in seventeen dead women and children? | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 2990 Registered: 3-2004 |
This was a mistake. Any admissions of error, or are we just going to look at the wonderful Alito victory? | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 315 Registered: 10-2005 |
Tulip- Dishing out your negative rants again I see. Is it because of today'd miserable weather...? For once I would like to see you post something positive.... | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 2991 Registered: 3-2004 |
When I see an attempt to value human life, by those who claim to do so, in this "war" you will see something positive from me. Thanks to your "party" I am looking forward to the rest of my life under the thumb of a right-wing monarchical dictatorship, calling itself a democracy. | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 321 Registered: 10-2005 |
Tulip- That was positive? You get an D for effort. I don't have the heart to outright fail you... Typical modern liberal, all the melodrama and pessimism that money can buy! My party? I am a registered independent. And if "my party" is so bad as you imply they are then they will be voted out soon-that is how democracy works. Besides, historically thinking it was the Dems that brought us into most of the wars last century. Do hold contempt for them as well? From what I gather, you appear to be somewhat older than I and is is disturbing to me that you are still playing the "Lib/good Con/bad" "us vs. them" labelling game. You still can't be angry at your parents, are you? | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 4937 Registered: 10-1999  |
Wow. It's been a long time since I've heard somebody recycle Bob Dole's "Democrat wars" line. And from an "independent", yet ...  | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10277 Registered: 5-2001 |
At this point the jury is still out on if we got Al-Zawahiri or not. However, not to go after him because some people who we thought were harboring him might be killed or injured is, well, cod headed. I don't like seeing women and children killed. However, the blame should be on Al-Zawahiri and the people who made the decision to harbor him. Using Tulips logic any terrorist or insurgent who hides in a "civilian" area should not be touched because an "innocent" may be killed gets a free pass. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 2992 Registered: 3-2004 |
Right. If you are not sure he's there, don't attack other innocent people. What is this? Using Republican logic, we value the American fetus so much that we roll back the clock on the Constitution. We just don't value living Pakistanis. That's not logic. That's hypocrisy. You don't like it, tough. It's my view. Look BobK, to me, your "logic" is basically, "bombs away!!" That's all. Hey, maybe the guy's over here, maybe he's over there, let's go bomb, kill, take collateral damage, 'cause ya know, stuff happens. After all, it's war, ya know. And if we goofed, oh, well, we're the super power. Might makes right, that's your logic. It downright stinks. | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 323 Registered: 10-2005 |
Nohero- Is there something unfactual about my remark? -SLK | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 2993 Registered: 3-2004 |
You guys go have fun rattling your sabers. After all the risks Musharaf has taken for the US, after all the Pakistanis have been through, you give them this. Disgusting, horrible, stinking, puke. | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 325 Registered: 10-2005 |
Tulip- "What is this? Using Republican logic, we value the American fetus so much that we roll back the clock on the Constitution. We just don't value living Pakistanis. That's not logic. That's hypocrisy." Let's reverse you logic above. Some would argue YOU don't value the American fetus but do value living Pakistanis. That too is hypocrisy. And you want to remind you of another liberal logical fallacy that I know will get your goat? I said it once before...yeah you know and I will spare you....out of common decency.... By your comments you still continue the "us vs. them" mentality and appear to not have a full understanding of the abortion issue, the US Constitution, or military intelligence. And as implied by your response to BobK, I see you don't show any spite towards the terrorists (or are they "freedom fighters" to you?)who deliberately put innocent civilians in harms way....typical... Please refrain from taking your cues from "The Nation" and come to reality... | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 326 Registered: 10-2005 |
Tulip- I do feel bad about beating up on you at times but you divisive nature truly bothers me. All libs are good, All cons are bad...it is so junvenile... I am starting to think you are a PEACEMONGER, which is fine, totally unrealistic but fine.... Remember this, the US did not start this fight... | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 328 Registered: 10-2005 |
NoHero: Presidents in Wartime: William McKinley - Spanish-American War, 1898; Boxer Rebellion, 1899-1900 (R) Woodrow Wilson - WWI, 1914-1918 (D) Warren Harding - formally concluded WWI (R) Franklin Roosevelt - WWII, 1941-1945 (D) Harry Truman - conclusion of WWII, Korean War - 1950-1953 (D) Dwight Eisenhower - conclusion of Korean War (R) John Kennedy - Bay of Pigs Invasion, 1961; beginning of Vietnam War (D) Lyndon Johnson - Vietnam War, Dominican Republic, 1965 (D) Richard Nixon - Vietnam War (R) Ronald Reagan - Grenada Invasion, 1983 (R) George Bush - Invasion of Panama, 1989-1990; Persian Gulf War, 1990-1991 (R) Bill Clinton-Bosnia (D) George W. Bush - War against the Taliban, Iraq, 2001 to present. (R) I count 7 Republicans and 6 Democrats. I am wrong! LOL....  Well, I just learned something today! Please accept my apologize for spreading BS....  | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14418 Registered: 10-2001  |
Abraham Lincoln (R) - The Civil War | ||
| Antje Petersen Citizen Username: Hannah Post Number: 12 Registered: 7-2005 |
here is something that you can read in english it is from the german tv "das erste" http://www.tagesschau.de/english rueters is also a very good http://today.reuters.com/news/home.aspx | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 4938 Registered: 10-1999 |
Sbenois - You are in error. Here in NJ, Lincoln did not start the Civil War. You have to go to South Carolina or Alabama, where you can find people who will tell you that Lincoln did start the Civil War. Of course, there are people here who will tell you that Woodrow Wilson started WWI, and FDR started WWII, yet forget that Eisenhower began the long U.S. involvement in Vietnam. | ||
| CageyD Citizen Username: Cageyd Post Number: 542 Registered: 6-2003 |
so...our intelligence said there were WMD in Iraq - over 20,000 dead Iraqis this week our intelligence said that Al-zarquari was in a village and we bombed them - over 18 innocent Pakistanis dead. I think I know where we can find money to put back into head start and student loans. Cut the intelligence budget in half!! WIth all the money we spend on it now they are so often wrong and as the GOP is so fond of saying when it comes to education spending - throwing more money at the problem is not the answer. US Intelligence ...the ultimate oxymoron | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 329 Registered: 10-2005 |
CageyD- Two instances of intelligence errors and we are suppose to scrap it? Intelligence keeps you, I and everyone on these boards everyday. I am sorry you can only see the negative side of it. -SLK | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14419 Registered: 10-2001 |
"Presidents in Wartime " | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14420 Registered: 10-2001 |
Indeed, Eisenhower did start us down the road to war in Vietnam. We had advisors in there in the early 1950s strategizing about what would happen if the French were to fail or pull out. But Kennedy, and especially Johnson, get full credit for ramping it up. Bay of Pigs? Fully planned under Eisenhower. Carried out less than 3 months into Kennedy's term. | ||
| Foj Citizen Username: Foger Post Number: 852 Registered: 9-2004 |
Bay of Pigs, planned by Prescott Bush and the Dulles bros. Bob K- yes drones- I concur. "When I take action I'm not going to fire a 2 million dollar missile at a $10 empty tent and hit a camel in the butt." http://www.topcops.com/memorial/fight.html | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10279 Registered: 5-2001 |
My initial reaction was that we would not have conducted an airstrike in Pakistan without at least the tacit approval of the Pakistani Government. After thinking about it I am no longer sure of this. Some of you may recall an incident a couple of years ago where a CIA armed drone spotted a group, one of whose members looked and acted a lot like Ossama himself. By the time this moved up the ladder, including to the Pentagon lawyers, the opportunity to attack had been lost. Is it possible that the "fire" decision has been delegated downwards to a point where a relatively low level person can give the order? As respects Vietnam, the French asked for US troops to be placed under their command, primarily to relieve Dien Bin Phuh (which I am sure I misspelled). I believe Eisenhower sent a small party to observe the situation. In the end we would not place troops under French command. | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 333 Registered: 10-2005 |
I was only referring to last century folks... | ||
| Alberto Citizen Username: Buckwheat Post Number: 69 Registered: 12-2005 |
Scrotis - please don't forget the wonderful job Clinton and Carter did in Haiti- | ||
| Eric Wertheim Citizen Username: Bub Post Number: 169 Registered: 1-2005 |
In the NYT, a Pakistani official was quoted off the record as saying about 15 dead militants, 11 Arab, were taken away from the scene by locals. True? Who knows. | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 522 Registered: 2-2004 |
We should be doing this once a week. It would keep these guys moving and more detectable (and, no, I have no problem killing our enemies or those who aid our enemies). | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 3945 Registered: 12-2001  |
We ignore the politics of this situation at our peril and to the advantage of the Chinese and Indians. We can kill seventeen militants per week forever in strikes such as this and it won't hurt the militants one bit. However, the rise in general anti-Americanism will be significant. | ||
| SO Ref Citizen Username: So_refugee Post Number: 1439 Registered: 2-2005  |
The 20th century ran from 1901-2000, so your first reference was from the 19th century. | ||
| llama Citizen Username: Llama Post Number: 720 Registered: 5-2001  |
Yeah Southerner, "smoke em out!" Knuckleheads | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 4209 Registered: 5-2001 |
...and here I thought the Japanese got us into WWII. Who knew? | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 335 Registered: 10-2005 |
SO Ref- Close enough, besides the first one on the list further defeats my whole arguments anyways! -SLK | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 336 Registered: 10-2005 |
Tom- You are missing the point. FDR did not have to declare war but he did...and good thing! llama-can you offer any viable solutions instead of of empty insults on this cold but peaceful Sunday morning? | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 3946 Registered: 12-2001 |
I draw a distinction between optional wars such as Vietnam and Iraq and wars such as WW II where the only option was to fight or surrender. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1349 Registered: 3-2004  |
FDR did not have to declare war but he did...and good thing! except he did it years too late. he was given ample evidence of the slaughter of the jews and decided to sit on his hands for years. he allowed the holocaust to happen through his indifference and inaction in the face of mountains of evidence. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 3947 Registered: 12-2001 |
The Holocaust didn't really get underway until Germany invaded Russia. Prior to that, there was certainly plenty of barbaric behavior, but not industrial genocide. Then, as now, nobody really goes to war to prevent barbaric behavior. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10285 Registered: 5-2001 |
Congress, technically not FDR, declared war on Japan after Pearl Harbor. A lot of the Japanese leaders thought we would not do so and withdraw from the Pacific. There are some similarities here to Afghanistan where Bin Laden thought we would chuck a few cruise missles into empty camps and call it a day. We never declared war on Germany. The declared war on us after we declared war on Japan. I think it is very debateable how much the US knew of the concentration camps in 1941. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 3948 Registered: 12-2001 |
In 1941, concentration camps were still prison and forced-labor camps. It wasn't until sometime in 1942 or 43 that they became death camps. It pure revisionist silliness to suggest that anybody should have attacked Germany for the treatment of German Jews. There were plenty of other reasons to stand up to German in 1936 during the remilitarization of the Rhineland and in 1938 instead of partitioning Czechoslovakia, but with the bloody memory of WW I still fresh, nobody was going to go to war over the treatment of the Jews, Gypsies and gays in Germany. |
