| Author | Message | ||
     sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14578 Registered: 10-2001  |
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| I "Straw"buried Paul Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 6772 Registered: 10-2001  |
Intended target.  | ||
| Mustt_mustt Citizen Username: Mustt_mustt Post Number: 549 Registered: 8-2003 |
From the blog Talkleft: "As for Cheney, what can one say that hasn't been already said about that worthless fascist waste of diseased protoplasm. There is nothing quite so pathetic as a bunch of wingnuts with their beer guts hanging over their belts blasting away at canned game -- farm raised quail, ducks, and whatever; released right in front of their guns so that they get to feel like mighty white hunters. So that's what super rich, war mongering, genocidal maniacs do on their weekends off." | ||
| I "Straw"buried Paul Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 6773 Registered: 10-2001 |
commie b.s. | ||
| Guy Supporter Username: Vandalay Post Number: 1511 Registered: 8-2004  |
Mustt, thumbs up. I couldn't agree more.  | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5040 Registered: 10-1999  |
Caption for the Kerry photo - "No hunting partners were harmed in the making of this picture." | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14581 Registered: 10-2001 |
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| shestheone Citizen Username: Shestheone Post Number: 226 Registered: 5-2003 |
LOL!!!!!! | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14582 Registered: 10-2001 |
Cheney's reaction when told that his  | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14583 Registered: 10-2001 |
Cheney showing how much he missed by...  | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14584 Registered: 10-2001 |
Cheney's subconcious reaction upon seeing his "partner" reappear...  | ||
| themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 2520 Registered: 12-2001  |
Geese aren't farm raised. Kerry is a dead shot by all accounts. He only shot men during the war. | ||
| curmudgeon Citizen Username: Curmudgeon Post Number: 752 Registered: 5-2001  |
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| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10645 Registered: 5-2001 |
The picture of Kerry was taken during the Iowa primary in a corn field. As themp points out this wasn't a "hunting preserve" trip. | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 537 Registered: 2-2003 |
Friendly Fire or Collateral Damage? | ||
| Threeringale Citizen Username: Threeringale Post Number: 32 Registered: 1-2006 |
Better to go hunting with Dick Cheney than driving with Ted Kennedy. Cheers | ||
| Guy Supporter Username: Vandalay Post Number: 1512 Registered: 8-2004 |
Three,  No Laura Bush jokes, please. | ||
| Southorangemom Citizen Username: Southorangemom Post Number: 258 Registered: 6-2003 |
Will crimninal charges be filed against Cheney? Any lawyers out there with an opinion? SouthOrangeMom | ||
| steel Citizen Username: Steel Post Number: 957 Registered: 2-2002 |
Actually, the guy he accidentally shot is a lawyer. (that is the first joke right there!) Since the lawyer/friend wasn't seriously hurt, (although, apparently his face looks chicken pox from the pepper shot,) -I love this story. -It is the perfect little metaphor for how this administration can't hit what they are aiming for and end up with unintended damaging consequences. -Meanwhile I'm sure that the Leno/Letterman writers are salivating and cranking up for this one. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1410 Registered: 9-2004 |
probably not. The closest charges but not likely, are according to the NY State penal code: S 120.20 Reckless endangerment in the second degree. A person is guilty of reckless endangerment in the second degree when he recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person. Reckless endangerment in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor. 260.32 Endangering the welfare of a vulnerable elderly person in the second degree. A person is guilty of endangering the welfare of a vulnerable elderly person in the second degree when, being a caregiver for a vulnerable elderly person: 1. With intent to cause physical injury to such person, he or she causes such injury to such person; or 2. He or she recklessly causes physical injury to such person; or 3. With criminal negligence, he or she causes physical injury to such person by means of a deadly weapon or a dangerous instrument. Of course none of these will apply to Cheney.  The question to most folks will be… 1. Why did they wait 24 hours before reporting the incident? 2. Why was this only made known after the owner of the ranch reported the incident to a local paper? The media and the comedy shows will have a field day with this one! | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1411 Registered: 9-2004 |
Each of the hunters was wearing a bright orange vest at the time, Armstrong said. Wow, bright orange? Cheney may need to change his eyeglass precription. Talking about "the gang who couldn't shoot straight." Then again, these are senior citizens hunting. Not safe!  | ||
| Guy Supporter Username: Vandalay Post Number: 1515 Registered: 8-2004 |
New sign on Cheney's Desk. THE BUCKSHOT STOPS HERE | ||
| Twokitties Citizen Username: Twokitties Post Number: 381 Registered: 8-2004 |
No wonder he voted against gun control. | ||
| steel Citizen Username: Steel Post Number: 958 Registered: 2-2002 |
Phenixrising: -The gun laws of NY State and Texas, (where this accident took place) are quite different. In Texas, the gun laws are as follows: "Whatever." | ||
| themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 2521 Registered: 12-2001 |
http://firedoglake.blogspot.com/ One of the first things my dad taught me was how to move around in the woods or in a field to maximize my safety. Aside from the blaze orange requirements today for visual safety, you stay behind the person with the gun, you keep your muzzle pointed away from people and dogs who are your companion animals (and reports are that they were using dogs to flush out the birds, so guns would have been pointed skyward to minimize potential accidents for the dogs), and you never, never, NEVER squeeze off a round without first ascertaining the entire visual in front of where you will be shooting, within the designated path of your particular firearm (different guns have different ranges and shot patterns, depending on caliber and load) -- in other words, look very carefully before you ever pull the trigger. That Mr. Whittington was in the line of sight for Dick Cheney is regrettable. But no matter whether Whittington walked into the line of sight or whether Cheney turned to shoot at quail and placed Whittington within his line (which is a more likely hunting scenario, given that you generally try to walk up on a hunting party from behind if at all possible if you are at all experienced, to minimize possible accidents), it is the hunter's responsibility at all times to be secure in what he is seeing before he ever pulls the trigger. Period. And no amount of trying to spin this to a press corps who has never fired a shotgun takes away from the fact that the shooter always has the obligation to ensure safety before pulling the trigger. ALWAYS. Not doing so as a kid would have gotten me a serious butt whipping and worse. My dad was very, very serious about it, having known idiots who went out in the woods and caused just this sort of accident. You never, ever shoot without looking very carefully first. Cardinal rule of gun safety number one. The narrative on the Cheney shooting incident goes as follows: Cheney shoots hunting companion with a 28-gauge shotgun, at about 30 yards. Mr. Whittington was about 30 yards from the vice president when the shooting occurred, Ms. Armstrong said. Altogether, there were five people in the group. Ms. Armstrong declined to identify the other hunters. Well, that's interesting. A 28-gauge shotgun is a fairly specialized firearm. My dad called it a "ladies gun" when I learned to shoot as a kid -- it was the first gun I ever took out for target practice at the quarry. It shoots a fairly small pattern, compared to the spread you get from a 12-gauge, say, so the buckshot comes out in a fairly concentrated pattern, and there is little to no recoil -- which means you don't get that smack into your shoulder when the gun rebounds from the pressure of the shot like you would with a higher-gauge (stronger) shot. At least, that's what I remembered (it's been a while since I was a kid and went target shooting with my dad), so I did a little research and...yep, I remembered correctly. Shotgun writer and wingshooter Bob Brister agrees that dropping down in gauge size can make the hunting experience more enjoyable, when the game and situation allow it. Brister, whose detached retinas don’t take kindly to recoil, says that most upland-bird shooting is more pleasurable and just as effective when using smaller gauges, such as the 28. “It’s not how much shot you throw up in the air,” Brister notes, “it’s where the shot goes that’s important. It’s not hard to understand that you’ll shoot better if you’re not being punished, so it makes sense to match the gauge to the game.” Unlike most other gauges, the 28-gauge shotshell is available in only the 2 3/4-inch length. Though there are a few heavy field loads in this gauge that contain 7/8 to 1 ounce, standard ammunition is loaded with 3/4 ounce of shot. This is 1/4 ounce less shot than a 20-gauge shell and 3/8 ounce less than a standard 12-gauge shell of the same length. With the reduced powder load needed to drive the smaller shotcharge, the 28 is a much sweeter-shooting round than its two larger stablemates. Surprisingly, it also tends to pattern very efficiently. In fact, as far out as 35 yards, the 28 puts as much of its shot payload (on a percentage basis) into a 30-inch patterning circle as the 12 and 20 gauge. That’s a long of bang without a lot of buck. Since Ms. Armstrong so helpfully points out that Mr. Whittington was within about 30 yards of the Veep, that sounds like a fairly concentrated blast area to me. Which explains why he had injuries to his face, neck and chest from the shot. And why he's been in the ICU -- since Saturday. Katherine Armstrong told the WaPo that the 28-gauge has a "smaller shot pattern." What she meant to say, I'm sure, is that the shot pattern is "more concentrated" - meaning that the pellets stay in a small circumferance as they move forward, rather than rapidly spreading outward in a larger pattern like you get with a 12-gauge. Which means that at close range, a 28-gauge can do some serious damage. And at 30 yards, give or take, it explains why the blast pattern on Mr. Whittington was limited to face/neck/chest. Also, a 28-gauge is used pretty much exclusively for small birds. And because of its lack of recoil, it would make sense that the Veep, with his heart and other health issues, would want to minimize any shocks to his system (so to speak). In my family, we just have "the talk" with the member of the family who ought not touch a shotgun any more. Guess it doesn't work that way in the Cheney family -- much to the Whittington family's dismay, I'm sure. Also, Armstrong said: Whittington "came up from behind the vice president and the other hunter and didn't signal them or indicate to them or announce himself," Armstrong said, according to the Associated Press. (emphasis mine) Well, now this is just assanine. Quail are jumpy little birds at the best of times, and you don't shout out "Hey guys, I'm coming up behind you." when your hunting buddies are closing in on their quarry. That will get you a smack upside the head. Cheney's crack medical team staunches the bleeding until ambulance can get to the Armstrong ranch to take victim to the hospital. She told reporters that the small shotgun pellets "broke the skin" and that the blast "knocked him silly. But he was fine. He was talking. His eyes were open. It didn't get in his eyes or anything like that." "Fortunately, the vice president has got a lot of medical people around him and so they were right there and probably more cautious than we would have been," she said. "The vice president has got an ambulance on call, so the ambulance came." Well, this explains why Ms. Armstrong has been silenced now by the Cheney PR team -- nothing like reminding the public that Cheney has an ambulance always on call, is there? And call me crazy, but a blast from a 28-gauge shotgun that puts you in the ICU isn't something that's just a surface scrape or anything. It hurts like hell. And no amount of calling it a "spray" or "being peppered" or whatever takes away from the fact that: this man was shot, at close range, by the Vice President of the United States, who then told no one in the American public -- and no one else did either, including the local police -- for 22 hours. Something is weird about this. I can't put my finger on what it is, and I'm awaiting a read of whatever police report gets released, but the whole narrative is odd. And reeks of covering for something. Maybe it's just covering for the fact that Dick swung around and fired without looking. Hell, I'd be embarassed, too, if I was that idiotic. But something about this stinks...and I'm putting together a list of questions on the legal aspects and other areas for later. If anyone else has some experience with this sort of thing, please chime in -- I'll be interested to see if the NRA really walks all their gun safety talk on this one. (btw, that's Wayne LaPierre of the NRA handing Cheney a gun in the picture above. It's not a 28-gauge, but it sure is a purty picture, isn't it?) It may be amusing to snicker at the VP's poor choices in this, but gun safety is no joke. Neither is having the Veep be treated differently than any other guy who might be involved in a hunting accident. If any Texans are reading, I'd be interested in your take on this as well. Texas gun laws are...erm...pretty loose, so what goes here in terms of an investigation and requirements likely doesn't apply there. I'm doing some legal research on this and reaching out to contacts, but I'd love to hear some thoughts from our Texas readers on all of this. good article. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4035 Registered: 12-2001  |
That's a lot of analysis for an accident. I can distinctly recall deciding to not pull the trigger once when my uncle's head appeared in my sights, but perhaps Cheney isn't able to process information as quickly as a twenty-something hunter. Also, it seems like a lot of hunters don't wear orange any more. I don't understand that. If I even go for a walk during hunting season, I wear some orange. I guess nowadays, hunters think it is more manly to wear camouflage. | ||
| Joe Citizen Username: Gonets Post Number: 1158 Registered: 2-2004 |
My question is, how low were these birds flying that a man standing 30 yards away could be in Cheney's line of sight? It's probably a simple case of Cheney being an incompetent boob, but rather than being a man and owning up to the fact that he lacks the requisite skills/training to hunt safely, his minions will blame the victim. I wonder if the victim will play ball. I'm guessing he will. | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 1918 Registered: 8-2003  |
no one could have anticipated that Whittington would have entered the Vice President's line of fire. just add it to the list of things "no one could have anticipated." | ||
| themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 2524 Registered: 12-2001 |
Why did they wait so long? To sober up? | ||
| Guy Supporter Username: Vandalay Post Number: 1519 Registered: 8-2004 |
This press briefing is hilarious. " Would this be more serious if the man had died" " Has the VP offered his resignation" " Similar to the levy story" " When did the president know that the VP was the shooter" " What did he know and when did he know it" I was waiting for McClellan to say. " We believe that the VP was the shooter and that he acted alone." | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12481 Registered: 1-2003  |
I don't get it, either. So Cheney is an idiotic hunter. So what? | ||
| Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 3022 Registered: 9-2001  |
The Buckshot Stops Here! Guy, stop it, you're killing me.....oops, unfortunate phrase to use around a conservative these days. Hmmmm, wonder if Whittington was thinking about complaining about the budget deficits or something liberal like that.......... | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 53 Registered: 1-2006 |
Mr. Sbenois, and Dave: As Mr. Fudd's counsel, I advise you to cease and desist further denigration of his character and abilities. jd, esq. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8617 Registered: 4-1997  |
Losing to a rabbit every Saturday morning for more than 50 years is an ability? Bring. It. On. | ||
| Ond Citizen Username: Ond Post Number: 66 Registered: 3-2004 |
I think the "buckshot stops here" sign will be on Whittington's desk. | ||
| themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 2528 Registered: 12-2001 |
Comments I picked up: At 30 yards, an open choke pattern would spread to have enough distance between pellets (at least 10 inches or a foot with a 28 guage) that it could not do the kind of damage that this guy apparently suffered. Also 7 or 8 shot is tiny and therefore has less mass and carries less energy at the same veleocity. That means it won't penetrate very far especially at 30 yards after it has been slowed greatly by the air resistance. Most importantly, bird hunting accidents are almost always caused by one thing. People walking around with their gun off safety - ready to shoot in case a bird flushes. Shotguns are designed so that the safety is accessible to your thumb while your trigger finger is poised on the trigger. Before I ever enter a field with someone I've never hunted with I stop and say OK, here's the deal, "I will not hunt with anyone here who does not agree to keep their gun on safe at all times until the moment just before they pull the trigger. If you don't want to do that tell me now and I'll go hunt somewhere else." The story they are telling doesn't make sense to me. My guess is that Cheney's open choke 28 guage gun was being carried off safety and that he dropped it or stumbled and it went off accidentally hitting his partner at about 15 yards range or less. Of course, the story that the victim approached from behind unnannounced and therefore was at fault sounds good to someone who has never hunted quail - but it's a crock. And finally, only a drunk, an A--- or a drunk A--- would ever shoot their partner or their dog. And then there is this bit from one of the medical folks in the audience, reader LittleBit: Speaking as a 20-year veteran of The-Big-ICU-In-Knife-And-Gun-Club-Territory, there is no way in hell that the victim is relatively uninjured. Shotgun injuries are some of the worst cases I have taken care of, due to the spread-shot nature of the wounds. If the victim got "peppered" in the neck, there are waaaayyyy too many important structures in that small space (oh, like maybe one of the internal or external carotid arteries) for this to be a "no big deal" situation. If any of the pellets nicks a blood vessel, it may travel as far as it can go--I took care of a kid shot in the chest and some pellets eneded up in his ankle, blocking the bloodflow, leading to an amputation. In this situation, add to that the victim's age and potential underlying medical problems--this is huge. These days, God Almighty doesn't get to stay in the ICU unless it is absolutely imperative that He do so. This stinks worse than a gangrenous leg... | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1412 Registered: 9-2004 |
 Another trigger happy yank in charge. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4036 Registered: 12-2001 |
Themp, What is your point? Pretty clearly, I wouldn't want Cheney as my hunting buddy, but I don't see him being guilty of much more than being careless. Finally, while I don't speak from experience, I am guessing that if I am rich in my own right AND a buddy of the V.P., I am going to receive the red carpet from most hospitals. Who knows, the guy might donate a new wing. | ||
| themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 2531 Registered: 12-2001 |
My point? This isn't some Vince-Foster-was-murdered daydream. This is fascinating and historical. Hunting buddy? How about your VP? Now that's dangerous. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10656 Registered: 5-2001 |
The first story was that Whittington was approaching the hunting party from behind, which makes sense. The sanitized version has him approaching Cheney from the front. Which is true? I wonder if Cheney was using the 28 gauge to make the shots more difficult or because of his health issues. A friend was shot in a hunting accident. The cause was an ahole carrying his shotgun off safe while climbing over a fence, which is a classic hunting accident scenario. My friend is a big guy and the medicos said that is what saved his life. Still, he has been back for followup surgeries several times as the pellets worked their way to the surface. |
