| Author | Message | ||
     Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 894 Registered: 2-2004 |
tom, Please save the hysterics for when they are needed. Did you feel the same way all the years the Dems were in control and kept winning with low favorables? No, you didn't because they were your guys. I'll agree the system is broken and both parties are to blame. What we need are more choices in parties, but both the Dems and Repubs have put up such huge roadblocks to a 3rd, 4th, and 5th party to actually be competitive that we are left with these 2 choices. It is not the ideal situation but it is far from "they cheated". In my opinion it is not that difficult to figure out. During the Democrat years of the 60's, 70's, and 80's the country as a whole tended to the liberal side of governmental philsophy. The election and successes of Reagan and Bush 41 began pushing the pendulum towards a conservative philosophy. Clinton's problems and the continued moving of the pendulum helped bring about a Republican Congress for the first time in 40 some years. With only two choices, the mass electorate will vote for the party they most closely resemble whether they agree with them on every issue or not. This is why I am not afraid of the low polls. When push comes to shove and a voter has only two options I am confident the Republicans will again prevail. Expect the Repubs to campaign on the differences betweent the two parties. While the Dems campaign against Bush (like in 2002 and 2004), the Repubs will paint the clear picture of us versus them. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 4715 Registered: 5-2001 |
It's a little more complicated than being hysterical. You're very right about the problems with a simple two-party system. It's not granular enough for the varied ways that people think. There's no real home for Christian leftists; or true libertarians; blacks with conservative attitudes towards gay marriage but liberal attitudes on civil rights; anti-abortion but pro-social welfare Catholics; deficit hawks; gays who want less government regulation of their business. And so on. The Repubs will try to paint many of these groups as part of some "us," even though they're largely not. Ditto the Dems. And therein lies the problem. Tom R. makes a very good point on voting for your own congressperson; it's not unlike how people think public schools in general are doing badly but on the other hand they like the one their kids go to. As for "cheated," I mean specifically cheated, as in Diebold tampering with the results. Whether or not they will, no one can confidently say that they cannot. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1674 Registered: 10-2004 |
After the problems with the 2000 election (poor Nader) I suspect that the 2 party system is here to stay until I am old and grey. The Left is far to scared after this Republican blight to back an independent, I'm afraid. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13576 Registered: 1-2003  |
A Canadian friend of mine tried to explain the political landscape of her country. She said it's all messed up because they only have three dominant parties. | ||
| 3ringale Citizen Username: Threeringale Post Number: 164 Registered: 1-2006 |
Americans of both parties sometimes seem to think that everyone else in the world wants to be, or should be like Americans. And yet after WWII, many new countries have been formed in the wake of anti-colonialism, seperatist movements, etc. How many new countries? I would guess 100+. Some turned to one-party dictatorships, some disintegrated into chaos. The rest seem to have adopted something along the lines of the British Parliamentary system. Off the top of my head I can't think of a country that has imitated the American Constitutional system. And you know what they say about imitation. Cheers | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5530 Registered: 8-2003 |
Bush did not 'openly lie' about Iraq inquiries -- not purchases, but inquiries -- into uranium in Africa. His '16 words' which never should have been retracted did not mention Niger, but Africa. British intelligence not only mentioned Niger on intelligence that did not involve the forged papers, but also the Congo. The Butler Commission in the UK exonerated the British intelligence on Iraqi inquiries into African uranium as 'credible.' Read the first 3 paragraphs of Hitchens' piece in Slate yesterday and you'll see what I'm talking about. http://www.slate.com/id/2139609/ If you want to say the world's intelligence was flawed, fine. But it was what it was. Bush rightly felt that he had to answer the charges leveled against him by Wilson who went on to be the foreign policy advisor to the Kerry campaign in 2004. After articles were written on how Wilson lied in his recollection of what he said and didn't say upon his return from Africa, you seem to forget he was dumped and/or quit the Kerry team because he was a lying piece of baggage in a campaign loaded with American Tourister. | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5326 Registered: 10-1999  |
Signs that you are losing an argument on MOL: 1. Resort to quoting Christopher Hitchens. It's an old law, but still a good one. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5531 Registered: 8-2003 |
If I'm losing the argument, refute the points, Nohero. Until then, I win the match because you won't get into the ring. Can you? | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5329 Registered: 10-1999 |
Yes, I read the first three paragraphs. It must have been a great experience for Hitchens, because he managed to combine his relatively recent Iraqi warmongering with his more established anti-Catholicism (you'll note that the character he tracks in his piece is an Iraqi ambassador posted to the Vatican). Since Hitchens is the only witness for this, it's still not something which makes me sit up, slap my forehead, and say, "You're right, this invasion was the best thing that we could have done!" | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5532 Registered: 8-2003 |
Pretty empty comback, Nohero. Whether he's anti-Catholic or not (and I wonder about his view of evangelicals while we're noting the irrelevant), he merely notes the guy's position in the Iraqi government. The only 'witness'? What are you talking about? And I'm not even talking about whether the campaign in Iraq was wise or not. I'm talking about the charge of "Bush lied." Can anyone help Nohero out? | ||
| Foj Citizen Username: Foger Post Number: 1145 Registered: 9-2004 |
yeah, Bush Lied. And either he goes to jail or I go to a prison camp. Or they shoot me. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5533 Registered: 8-2003 |
.....ok......anyone else? | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1088 Registered: 10-2004  |
cjc - in todays Washington Post is a perfectly fine example of Bush lying right on the front page. Biolabs? No and he still told us they were | ||
| Duncan Supporter Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 6183 Registered: 12-2001  |
And you righties got all caught up in the phrase "what the definition of 'is' is." | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1684 Registered: 10-2004 |
Sure cjc: How about this. UN weapons inspectors had been saying LOUDLY and CONTINUALLY for a long time before the war that there were no WMD in Iraq. Were they all liars too (or cheap no-name luggage as you like to call them)? How about the fact that there is now plenty of information leaked (such as the Downing Memo) that proves that Bush fabricated evidence trying to deceive the world and attempt to justify an unjustified war. Then on top of that, lets just rub your face in it a bit and remind you that it was proven and admitted by the White House that no WMD were in Iraq. But then to shut you up just a little more lets also remind you that there has never been a link between Iraq and Al Qaeda. Now bugger off aready. I find it irritating beyond belief that the Republicans will defend their party regardless of how heinous the crimes are. Thousands of Americans have died due to our government's deceptions, and countless innocents in Iraq have been murdered. Just for once stop towing your parties lines and think for yourself. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1089 Registered: 10-2004 |
and again cjc you are just muddying the waters. the issue is not whether Iraq ever visited Niger with the intent to buy uranium, the issue is whether they actually did buy uranium. If what hitchens says is true then it only means Saddam went shopping it does not mean the uranium was actually sold. Exactly why would there be forged documents cjc? If there was an actual sale there would be no need to forge a document because there would be documentation. Uranium is a highly controlled element. | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 896 Registered: 2-2004 |
I love this. Didn't we have this debate during the 2004 campaign for like 16 months? Why don't you libs just move on. You lost the debate and the Repubs kept Congress and the White House. Your attempts at revisionism are admirable however. Nobody likes to get beat down like the Dems did in 2004 and have it stand on the books. I don't blame you. Something tells me you libs will be bringing up Bush years after his library is dedicated, kind of like we cons like to bring up Clinton. And the cycle continues. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1091 Registered: 10-2004 |
Southerner, Its not a debate. If you put your trust in people who lie to you, knowing that they are lying to you and yet you still trust them, then it shows you have incredibly poor judgement or you are in the pocket of these people. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2854 Registered: 5-2004  |
Please. Every single person in Bush's administration could rape and kill their mother and sister, and Southerner would still be in the sidelines cheering, voting for them or supporting them while they sat in jail. It's all he knows how to do. It's not about right and wrong. Ir's about Right and Left. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2855 Registered: 5-2004 |
Well, it might be tough for Condi to rape and kill her mother and sister, but let's assume she pays someone to do it. | ||
| Twokitties Citizen Username: Twokitties Post Number: 422 Registered: 8-2004 |
Hoops: "todays Washington Post is a perfectly fine example of Bush lying right on the front page. Damn straight Hoops. Sickening. Tragically sickening. | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 898 Registered: 2-2004 |
Rastro, More empty rhetoric from the minority party. I feel you your pain. I was there during the 70's and 80's while a corrupt Democratic Congress ran roughshod over this nation. And if it's about Right and Left for me, it's about whining and feeling sorry for youself for you. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2857 Registered: 5-2004 |
Please, show me a single post where I have whined or shown any self-pity. And I am not a member of the minority party. I am not a member of any political party. I like to think for myself, not have other people tell me what I should think. I felt pain in the 70s and 80s as well. Nixon, Ford, Carter. Scary times, they were. Reagan was an major improvement. I lived under in NY Mario Cuomo, a great man but a less than stellar Governor. David Dinkins's NY? A colossal failure. Again, it goes back to being able to look at each situation, rather than having a knee-jerk reaction based on ones party affiliation. That is your department, not mine. If you have issues with other posters here, that's fine. I am simply pointing out your inability to see the rot in your own party. I take that back. It's not that you don't see it. You just don't care, as long as they keep winning. To bring it to a level you might understand (you used a baseball analogy in a different post)... If I were a huge fan of the Yankees, then I found out that every member of the team was a steroid using wife beater, my love of the team might wane somewhat. I would surely be disappointed in the team members. You would be saying "Yeah, but they keep winning!" | ||
| Twokitties Citizen Username: Twokitties Post Number: 423 Registered: 8-2004 |
Southerner: Are you senile or something? We get it for God's sake. Enough. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1694 Registered: 10-2004 |
Rastro, where were you when I was looking for a different opinion from the Right in my "I HATE REPUBLICANS" thread a while back? Thank you for showing me that just because you are conservative you don't have to be an idiot. Thank you for using your brain. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13599 Registered: 1-2003 |
Twokitties, perhaps Southerner will repeat his one and only point until we give him the satisfaction he craves. I guess I haven't figured out what that is yet. | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 901 Registered: 2-2004 |
Rastro, Nice analogy. Now what if I found out every MLB team had steroid abusing wife beaters? In that case I'd have two options. Stop watching baseball or root for my beloved steroid abusing wife beaters to beat the other steroid abusing wife beaters. Since I love baseball I would probably continue to root for my guys rather than give up the sport. Let me ask a question. Have the Republicans who were the minority for years proved in your mind (Reingold please answer as well) that they are better than the Dems? I would gather you do not believe they are. You want the Dems to win and take back control because they will do a better job. Most all of us watched for years as the Democrats ran things every bit as iron fisted and corruptly as the current Republicans. What are we left to do? We have two options. Not participate in elections or pull the lever for the guy or gal we think shares more common values with us. I don't vote lock and stock and barrel for any party. I've said this on many posts but I guess no one likes to bring that up. My current Representative is a Democrat. He does a fine job bringing in the federal dollars which is why he keeps getting re-elected. I don't agree with many of his positions on a macro-level but he has enough seniority to help out on the micro-level and he is smart enough not to give the same speeches at home as he does on the road. And thankfully, he distanced himself far from McKinney even though he is in the same caucus. As for Bush, I don't like everything he does, but where else could I turn? Gore or Kerry? I have many more disagreements with governmental philosophy with both of those candidates than Bush. Therefore, I voted for Bush. Why do many of you have so much hatred for the opposing view? I realize you truly believe Bush is taking us in the wrong direction, but can't you understand that is how the losing side always feel. I felt the same way with Clinton in office. I felt like we were going in the wrong direction, but I never attacked Clinton supporters because I realized they believed in the guy. I also was smart enough to know no matter who is running the ship they can only screw it up so much. So most of you should just relax and work hard to get your candidate elected. I know I will continually be attacked because I disagree with the majority on this Blue State message board. I really believe that this period of the Democrats losing control of everything will turn out to have favorable effects down the road. Maybe now when they gain back power (hopefully, a few more decades) they will treat the Republicans a little better than they did during their four decade run. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1705 Registered: 10-2004 |
I wish this was true. I feel that TOO much has been screwed and every day we get screwed even further. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1093 Registered: 10-2004 |
Southerner you are not being attacked because you disagree. You are being attacked for being a monotone, one issue voice. No matter what is pointed out to you, your response is 'We won so too bad'. Your diatribe about disagreements in philosophy rings fully hollow given the actual deeds of the administration versus the rhetoric. More beaurocracy, more government spending, larger deficit, privatization of the armed forces, these are not conservative or even traditional republican traits. No you are being attacked for being pig-headed and for not being able to admit that this 'republican' administration has screwed up both foreign and domestic policy to the point that the US foreign policy is derided around the globe and our country is damn near bankrupt. And dont forget the actual human suffering here and abroad that this administration has caused with its war of choice or forget the suffering caused by the incompetant management of the government agencies like Fema and DHS. Its obvious why you are a target of derision. Its because you fail to recognize that your chosen representatives have failed not only you but all of us. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13608 Registered: 1-2003 |
Southerner, you have made a logical error. It is true that the losers tend to hate the winners, but that does not necessarily mean that we would agree with "our side" in office if they made the same mistakes that the current administration is making. In other words, as much as you'd like to think it is true, our view of going on is not affected only by who is winning and who is losing. You just said you like some Democrats. Why, then, is it impossible for us to hate the Bush administration for what they are doing rather than for who they are? I can't disprove your thesis that we are motivated (like you) solely by the winning and losing outlook, but you can't prove it is true, either. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1707 Registered: 10-2004 |
I feel confident that Lincoln is rolling over in his grave over what this administration stands for. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5534 Registered: 8-2003 |
Alleygater -- you're as big a loser as Nohero but at least you've got the courage to try to post. Hoops -- I'll dispense with you later. What intelligence was before the invasion can't be compared to the intelligence after the fall of Baghdad when unmitigated access was possible. I'll grant you the intelligence going in was wrong, but aside from 'doubts' on the trailers or anything else, there was intelligence -- flawed as it was -- that there was WMD present in Iraq including the trailers. Bush could have gone either way. Clinton's 'containment' and a few Tomahawks to Iraq and Afghanistan weren't viable options to Bush in a post-9/11 world. Sure no WMD was found in Iraq. We still don't know what happened to it or where it went. Did Clinton blow it up in 1998 with 20 missiles after the UN inspectors were tossed? Why didn't he change his policy of regime change afterwards? Was he lying too? (maybe that's a bad question to ask) The 9/11 Commission said there were contacts with Al Qada but there was no operational relationship. Alley -- don't you remember Richard Clarke (no doubt a hero of yours) saying if we went after Osama in Afghanistan that he would "boogie to Baghdad"? Look it up. You thought probably that some murderer like Osama would have nothing to do with a "secular Iraq"? No so, at least to Richard Clarke and many others. And whatever the extent of the relationship with Al Qada, it's clear that Saddam was a state sponsor of terror. Try not being such a jerk when you next post after watching Fahrenheit 911 one more time. Hoops -- the allegation always was that Saddam was inquiring about how to obtain uranium, not that he purchased it. Why inquire about uranium? The old "it's for nuclear power even though we live on a sea of oil" line that Iran is using? Concern about global warming? And I don't have any idea why someone would put obviously forged documents into the mix other than to possibly stop the intent of Bush by their discovery. | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 903 Registered: 2-2004 |
Tom, I agree. I have no problem with you hating Bush for his actions rather than who he is. I doubt you have ever had a conversation with the man. This is why I harp on the fact that elections are the only way to resolve disagreements. How else can good smart liberals like yourself and good smart conservatives like myself come to an agreement? We can't. We may like each other personally but we simply have different views of what our government should do and not do. We both want the same result, a strong country for future generations, but we disagree wholeheartedly on how do get there. I know you Dems are not evil and I have never gone there. If the Democrats win back Congress and Hillary wins the Presidency, I will give them a chance to govern since they earned it by winning which means they have the will of the people. I may not support them, but I wouldn't brand them evil or use many other terms that have become common place on MOL. I really don't care who wins or loses as long as they get the job done. That is why I often say, although I didn't vote for Clinton, he didn't do a bad job. Heck, I can even say he was pretty darn good. And there are a few Democrats I could vote for as President, but I can't let that out. There are too many electoral votes down here that I can't have you urban area guys poaching with a viable candidate. I would much rather have discussions like this, but then you get posters like Hoops who I often like to rile up with my cheerleading routine. READY, OK, two bits, four bits, six bits, a dollar, all who control the White House, Congress, State Legislatures, Governorships, and don't have Hillary, stand up and holler!!!! | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1094 Registered: 10-2004 |
I was happy when I read you would 'dispense' with me later. Now I find later is the same post  and yet I strangely dont feel dispensed. Could it possibly be that the Arabs are more interested in their futures then we are? Isnt it speculated that oil will run out within the next century? Shouldnt these very rich nations begin to invest in their own infrastructure while they have the money to do so? The reasons for the invasion of Iraq are found in the project for the new american century written by your neo-con friends well before 9/11. Dont hand us any post 9/11 world smack. We arent afraid. | ||
| The Notorious S.L.K. Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1203 Registered: 10-2005 |
Alley- Still carrying on about how all conservatives are idiots I see. Why someone allows themselves to be so partisan is beyond me. It only illustrates the self-imposed limitations you put on your thought process(es)...Now that is something to be proud of.... CJC-I don't why we continue to carry on with some of these people. They have choked on their own BS for so long they actually believe it to be the truth....Alley, Hoops, RL (where in the hell has he been lately)can only regurgitate what their favorite left wing websites tell them.... And Hoops who are you kidding with this line: "because you fail to recognize that your chosen representatives have failed not only you but all of us." How arrogant can you possibly be? CJC and I are so clueless that we can't recognize failure when we see it but you can? I am dropping to me my knees as I type this. All praise mighty Hoops.... And Bush never failed you because you never ever gave him a chance to succeed... -SLK | ||
| dave23 Citizen Username: Dave23 Post Number: 1647 Registered: 5-2001 |
cjc, Clinton's much-derided "containment" seems to have worked and to this day is preferable to occupation, which augments terrorist recruiting in this "post-9/11 world." | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1096 Registered: 10-2004 |
"I am dropping to me my knees as I type this. All praise mighty Hoops.... You are finally correct about something. Now how about those Mets! | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5535 Registered: 8-2003 |
Right. Terrorist recruiting would have dropped off if we had just stayed within Afghanistan. I couldn't disagree more. After all the help we gave Muslims in The Balkans, and they thank us with 9/11? Perhaps if we had started a ping-pong exchange earlier we could have avoided that too. Hoops, if you want to talk about the dreams and aspirations of Arab nations or US infrastructure we can. You attempted to counter my assertions on Niger and Iraq. You were obviously dispensed with on that point because your rejoinder makes no mention of that which we were ostensibly discussing. | ||
| dave23 Citizen Username: Dave23 Post Number: 1648 Registered: 5-2001 |
There's something you need to know: Not all one billion Muslims were behind 9/11. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1098 Registered: 10-2004 |
cjc - so sorry, but the word dispensed in this context just totally tickles me.  |
