| Author | Message | ||
     Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 3508 Registered: 9-2001  |
Southerner: To answer your questions: Yes, No, and I am not surprised. | ||
| Strawberry Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 7541 Registered: 10-2001 |
this thread is funny..Bill Clinton, "take 10 guys!"  | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1002 Registered: 4-2006 |
Please see my comment about "tulip" in the thread about what Hoops said. Sums it up nicely. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3676 Registered: 3-2004  |
Eats: If I were to assume that American democracy had anything in common with the "guerilla" tactics employed by American Revolutionary War soldiers, I am not sure I would link their warlike behavior with the writings, say,of the Declaration of Independence. Yet, the soldier class and the founding father class were interdependent. Or were they? I am not trying to EQUATE Hezbollah or Hamas with the American revolutionaries, but they both used and use guerilla tactics, as do terrorists. When are the guerilla tactics justified? Obviously, you don't approve of the guerilla tactics of Hamas, or the assaults of Hezbollah. They are clearly related to territory,or they wouldn't be doing this. Everyone is fighting over hegemony (power) and territory. Israel may be fighting for its very existence. So when is territorial guerrilla warfare justified, and when is it not? I am listening to Nasrallah. He says he is for open warfare. He is for open warfare instead of guerilla warfare, so what's the difference? Israel is surrounded. It's not in Israeli interests to "try to destroy the military capacity" of Hezbollah when they are surrounded. This, in my mind, is Israel committing suicide, not defending itself. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5753 Registered: 8-2003 |
RL -- your question draws from the recent story parroted many places that Bush has lost his 'cowboy' foreign policy. But the premise of that was that Bush would treat all enemies the same, regardless of their military capability or position in the world. "Well...how come you won't just invade N. Korea?" Possibly because they have a bomb?!?! And would level Seoul in a day with conventional artillary? Iran, Syria (and Lebanon), North Korea and Hezbollah and Hamas aren't all the same, so why would the approach be? Bush started his campaign against Iraq at the UN. | ||
| Robert Livingston Citizen Username: Rob_livingston Post Number: 1989 Registered: 7-2004  |
I didn't read that article, cjc, but it's clear that Bush was so certain of his foreign policy when it came to invading Iraq (gee, almost as if it were premeditated) and now he just seems lost. No leadership. No reassurance to the American people. No strategy. No consistency. In fact, nothing. " "Well...how come you won't just invade N. Korea?" Possibly because they have a bomb?!?!" Didn't we think that about Iraq?? | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4482 Registered: 12-2001  |
Tulip, You wrote: "Israel is surrounded. It's not in Israeli interests to "try to destroy the military capacity" of Hezbollah when they are surrounded. This, in my mind, is Israel committing suicide, not defending itself. " Is this what you intended to write. If so, I don't understand, because amidst all the madness in the region, destroying the military assets of Hezbollah seems like a pretty reasonable thing to do. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3677 Registered: 3-2004 |
Excellent point, Robert. On another level, I think Israel against the world of Islam is another David against Goliath, that won't work for David; or much worse, it's Massada. Eats: I mean that you are overly optimistic about the balance of power. I don't think Israel and the US dropping bombs would eliminate Hezbollah. This is just going to escalate, bring in Iran, bring in Asia. This is going into a world war over Hezbollah. Does Israel want a world war? I believe that's the question. | ||
| Robert Livingston Citizen Username: Rob_livingston Post Number: 1990 Registered: 7-2004 |
So far, this is Bush's policy for N. Korea as best as I can tell. He stated it in a news conference the other day: "I think we've got to plan for the worst and hope for the best." Are you f-cking kidding me? That's what Bill Parcells says to the Cowboys before the New England game. That's the best he's got? The f-cking leader of this country and the free world?? That's his policy right now? He's saying nothing. NOTHING! He's saying, "well, I got nothing, so I'll throw out a lame-••• tired cliche and maybe no one will notice." This guy really is the worst president of all time. One of the worst leaders of any nation at any time. Whoever can't see this is deaf, dumb and blind (and/or living in Southern America). | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1669 Registered: 10-2004  |
Dont worry that the horse is blind, just load the wagons - John Madden Winning is the only thing - Vince Lombardi Just Win Baby - Al Davis Offense sells tickets, defense wins games - Paul 'Bear' Bryant  | ||
| Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 3509 Registered: 9-2001 |
Tulip: 1. Israel is not trying to destroy Hez or Hamas--it is trying to destroy their capacity to attack Israel, which attacks have been escalating in number and scope ever since Israel pulled out of Gaza. This is an important difference from what you said. Frankly, when you pull a tiger's tail, you should be surprised when it bares its teeth. 2. You paraphrase the famous; "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.". In this case, my moral and ideological filter says that Hamas and Hez are not freedom fighters. They are terrorists bent on destroying Israel. For me, the State of Israel is legit and has a right to exist at least equal to other states forged from the ruins of empires--often at gunpoint. It is not nice but it is an historical fact on the ground. I do believe Israel should go back to 1967 borders but only in the context of a lasting peace settlement with all Arab neighbors. But these yahoos will not rest until they destroy Israel. They are based on blind hatred, not freedom or nation building. 3. You excuse the terrorists by saying not to blame the political leaders who can't control them. Well, if they cant control them, then it is not a real state and Israel has a right to control them how best it can. Real states have at least strong enough internal controls to stop things like violent crime, which this is. Or at least make credible efforts to control it. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3678 Registered: 3-2004 |
Eats: First, I hope you are not assuming that I feel Israel does not have the right to exist. I do. I just think it's going about defending itself in a self-destructive way. If I were surrounded by big toughs on a playground, would I start trying to punch them out? Not unless I wanted to do away with myself, or I just didn't think about what I was doing. I understand that they think they are "defending themselves." I just think it's not the best way to counteract a force that just might be bigger than theirs. Eats, You said in your post #3506 today: Tulip: Yes, in general you are correct, but since Israel does not have any political means to thwart Hezbollah, crushing it militarily will at least stop its progression as an active and hostile threat to Israel. By "crushing it (Hez) militarily" I assumed, apparently in error, you meant crushing it. I just think this escalation isn't the way to work with a faction that was actually elected (ironically, if you call that democracy) and is taking Israel's warlike stance seriously. It's too late, Eats. The battle is engaged. It's Israel against its enemies, which number many. I don't know if they could count on Bush coming to their aid, when Bush has been trying to form alliances and has a network as delicate as a spider web there (Lebanon, other Middle Eastern countries.) I think Israel's timing to blow things up and escalate things is stupid. Remember Entebbe? Can't Israel find the kidnapped soldiers and extricate them as intelligently as they conducted themselves at that time? Where's Israel's famous intelligence and courage? Must they hide behind bombs? They used to be the model for surgical strikes. | ||
| Spinal Tap Citizen Username: Spinaltap11 Post Number: 47 Registered: 5-2006  |
On a modern battlefield size does not matter. Israel could wipe out any force arrayed against her in the Middle East. | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2737 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tulip, if you really care about Israel's continued existence, then how about stating what you think Israel should be doing now* as opposed to not doing. *I'm sure I can guess that you feel the terrorist attacks on Israel are Israel's fault (sort of like when I've been mugged, I shouldn't defend myself but should just work harder to alleviate poverty) but let's talk about the present situation, shall we? | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3679 Registered: 3-2004 |
I guess this is it. Wendy, No, I don't think Israel started this. I think Israel has got to stop wavering between a good and intelligent policy of withdrawing from disputed territory, and then overreacting to a kidnapping. Israel seems not to understand that it is at war. As a Jewish mother, if anything happen to my children, I would be there beating up anyone who dared touch a hair on their head. As a sovereign nation, Israel should realize that in war, soldiers get kidnapped, and even killed. He who lives by the sword as they say... So if Israel has a kidnapped soldier, they should use the Resistance of World War II, as a model. Then, they would use intrique, espionage and careful infiltration to find him and extricate him. Creating bomb blast after bomb blast looks like a child's temper tantrum, and doesn't retrieve the soldier, just creates more kidnappings. It looks disingenuous. It looks like they really don't want him back. Do you really think Hezbollah isn't going to grandstand and take more hostages as a result of these bombs? Really. How dumb. Sorry. It's just dumb. Even at the height of the Holocaust, the Jewish people did not let the horror blind them, and make them unable to use subtrefuge and clever sabotage to survive. | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2738 Registered: 5-2001 |
OK, now I see that you actually made suggestions. Not very good ones, but at least you made suggestions. Comparing Entebbe to this is how shall I say? Oh yes specious. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3680 Registered: 3-2004 |
I DIDN'T COMPARE IT TO ENTEBBE, WENDY!!! I mentioned Entebbe as an example of Israeli planning and intelligence in conflict. I said Even at the height of the Holocaust, the Jewish people did not let the horror blind them, and make them unable to use subtrefuge and clever sabotage to survive. Empahsis...MINE. WHY does Israel take such a high and mighty tone about terrorism when they would not be Israel without IRGUN?? What was Irgun? So WHAT if it was 50 years ago? | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3681 Registered: 3-2004 |
Arguing with you, Wendy, is like arguing with Scrotey or FactsvFiction. I will not continue. Have fun mocking what I say. I believe what I say, and I think Israel is provoking a nuclear war. Period. Frankly, Wendy, your arguments are specious. You have not suggested a single solution. Why don't you try? Are you afraid I will mock it? You may be right. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1005 Registered: 4-2006 |
tulip- I would address your arguments if there were any real substance to them. Reading them is akin to watching a train wreck. Horrible. Wendy and Eats, I don't have your patience. www.jihadwatch.org One of the reasons I am so turned off to my former party is the fact the hopelessly clueless have become the party. It's like the pod people. Consider me a democratic agnostic at best. How come none of you has said Bush is responsible for Hizbollah too? ( Hey, Hoops here is your opening) | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2739 Registered: 5-2001 |
Oh, the ultimate of insults tulip. Then why not respond to ESL’s statements at least. I think ESL has already responded to you much more eloquently and patiently than I could. Israel's formation as a state and its continued fight to survive is far more complex than you comparing the Irgun with the current RADICAL (you conveniently leave that term out) islamic terrorists and supporters of said terrorism whatever their motives: anti-Semitism, oil, maintaining control of their own impoverished, uneducated masses. Just because our president, who I also abhor, is supporting Israel, doesn't make it wrong, btw. Perhaps that is why you feel the way you do in a nutshell. And if you think that's mocking, get glasses. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3682 Registered: 3-2004 |
Wendy, I used the word "militant." Don't you like that one? Isn't that about the same as "radical?" Why don't you get your hands dirty with the "impoverished uneducated masses" and go educate them? Maybe become a sabra!! Facts too! I'll be watching for you on CNN!! Israel is starting a nuclear war. | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2741 Registered: 5-2001 |
Where's
| ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3683 Registered: 3-2004 |
That's not my attempt to frighten you, Wendy, it's my observation. Israel is starting a nuclear war. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1671 Registered: 10-2004 |
fiction - dont hold your breath. tulip - in my opinion your expression of frustration with the Israeli policy is identical to my frustration with their policy. The defenders of the policy can not agree that the pain and suffering caused by that policy is a horrible mistake because they have to believe that it is the right thing to do. Everyone here may have an opinion about what is right and what is wrong but I have not seen one opinion yet that said the Israel should not exist. Therefore each of us is supporting the state of Israel. What we are arguing about is the policies that are in place in terms of defending Israel. None of these people will say that killing a child in the name of a kidnapped soldier is a good thing but they wont condemn it either because they will not criticize Israel as a sign of loyalty. With the advent of the Hezbollah attacks on Israel it gave Israel every right to go after and try to smash the Hesbollah ability to attack Israel. In doing so Israel is causing a lot of collateral damage, a lot of innocent life is being lost, maimed and broken. Hezbollah has its own strategy and drawing Israel into this conflict is probably exactly what it had in mind. I do hope that Israel is able to get things under control quickly without much more damage. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15308 Registered: 10-2001  |
Israel is defending herself. By any means required. End of story. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3684 Registered: 3-2004 |
Hoops: Facts, Wendy and Eats(!) should take comfort in the fact that Ann Coulter thinks that Israel is responding "as Reagan would," and is therefore doing the right thing. Sometimes good people apparently lose their objectivity and good judgment under certain conditions. Sbenois, I believe you predicted nuclear war by..when was it... Sunday...? | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12150 Registered: 5-2001 |
A couple of points: 1. Jerry Adams of Sein Fein was also the head of the IRA, or in a position to tell the IRA what to do and when to do it. This is an example of dealing with the political wing of a terrorist organization, although it took over 200 years to get where they are today. 2. If a friend, a former SAS officer who did a year in Northern Ireland, is typical in the end the Brits found the IRA easier and more honorable to deal with than Ian Paisley and his group of wackos. From some of the posts here demonizing Palestinians specifically and Muslims in general the Israeli government may come to a similar conclusion. 3. I espect that Israel is trying to destroy Hamas and Hezbollah, not just disarm them since they have taken Hamas politicians hostage and are threatening to do the same with Hezbollah. 4. Sooner or later, hopefully before everybody starts chucking nucs around Israel is going to have to deal with some Palestinians they would probably would prefer not to. Abbas is an example. 5. Terrorism is terrorism and often targets civilian populations. I don't see any moral difference between the US nucing Japan from 25,000 feet and someone strapping on an explosives vest and blowing up a few people is only a matter of degree. 6. Interestingly Hezbollah is actually fighting more like a real army, with rockets and ambushes of soliders than in the past. Is this a sea change or not? I don't really know, but it is interesting to think about. | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2743 Registered: 5-2001 |
Bob K perhaps some citations to previous posts are in order to back up your assertion of your claim that "some of the posts here demonizing Palestinians specifically and Muslims in general the Israeli government may come to a similar conclusion." I don't see it frankly and we know how careful you usually are in reading all posts. Yes? Tulip: I'll repeat what I said to you earlier and let's leave it at that. Any more and you'll really make Fact's initial assertion on another thread correct. Just because our president, who I also abhor, is supporting Israel, doesn't make it wrong, btw. Perhaps that is why you feel the way you do in a nutshell. Hoops bud, I really thought you were coming around. But when you start to tell each of us how we really feel about civilian casualites and why we can't criticzie Israel because of our vested interest. Well you lost me there. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1673 Registered: 10-2004 |
its ok Wendy. The way I see it, I take a step towards understanding your position and you take a step towards understanding my position, thats how agreements can be made. But as I see it you are unwilling to take that step. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1010 Registered: 4-2006 |
Hoops- It helps when "positions" make sense to begin with. Say, have you talked to any Israeli "crips" yet? | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15313 Registered: 10-2001 |
 | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1674 Registered: 10-2004 |
I guess that was funny. FvF - my comment certainly was not intended for you. Since you advocate genocide I really dont think there is anything to discuss with you. | ||
| 3ringale Citizen Username: Threeringale Post Number: 300 Registered: 1-2006 |
The only real solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is probably the one set forth by the late Meir Kahane. Deport all Arabs from Israeli territory. For various reasons, this is a logistic, economic and political impossibility. It isn't going to happen. So, Israelis and Palestinians are going to keep killing each other. Why America should provide money and weapons to anyone in the Middle East is not clear to me. Cheers | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3690 Registered: 3-2004 |
Hoops: Now they are talking ethnic cleansing as well as genocide. | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2746 Registered: 5-2001 |
Now they?????? Are you becoming a stereotyping bigot in front of my eyes??? | ||
| ae35unit Citizen Username: Ae35unit Post Number: 156 Registered: 2-2006  |
I remember watching the '72 Olympics in real time. I was kid, so I could watch it all day if wanted. One day, the self described Palestinian Arabs said they would blow up the Israeli team at 12 noon. Me and the other kids in the neighbourhood made sure we were there ten minutes early to see the action. It didn't happen. At least not then, it did happen later, and it was horrible. It was probably, outside of state funerals, one of the first 24 hour TV events. I knew then (as a kid) that this would require a response. The Israelis have been dealing with this before and since. Again, as a child, I felt that I realized that the IRA, later Sinn Fein, were just a bunch of people defending their jobs, like GM workers or something, and were killing people to do it. If Israel is responding too aggressively, I can sure as hell understand. Earlier, I said who in our current administration could have the gravitas or sobriety to address the players here. I say nobody. Too damn bad. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1012 Registered: 4-2006 |
Hoops- Such nonsense and desperation, really. Where do I advocate "genocide"? Israel however does need to defeat the Palestinians millitarily in order to end their delusions about the destruction of Israel. Israel has not fire-bombed Palestinian cities as the allies did in Dresden nor dropped atomic bombs on Beirut as the US did to Japan. Israel allowed humanitarian supplies in to Gaza to a people that wishes to destroy it. tulip- It is always helpful to know what you are talking about before you talk. In your case... well... Given your well-stated humanitarian concerns may I inquire as to when you are going to Iran to act as a human shield at one of their nuclear sites? The world needs you far more than MOL, tulip. Could you save the whales when you are at it too? | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1675 Registered: 10-2004 |
really, I have to say that I am sorry I ever put my opinion on the situation out on the board. It seems to me that people who are vehement supporters of Israel can couch no criticism whether harsh or mild. They then turn around and ridicule, insult and feign offense at statements that they dont read but rather feel. I am no enemy of the state of Israel and neither it seems to me are any of the posters who have offered up an opinion. Considering the absolute controversy and enthusiastic response simple statements are getting, yes I do regret answering sbenois original posting. sbenois - I did have respect for your wit and your presence on MOL but at this point you seem to be well, transforming into something darker. You dont like my point of view on the issue and think I have a double standard. Maybe I do, maybe I havent expressed myself as clearly as I could. I certainly think I have argued my points in good faith, without malice. Pointing fingers at each other and attempting to label each other as bigots, anti-semites, racists or anything else is self defeating. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1676 Registered: 10-2004 |
fvf - no clue what you were trying to say there. your case for genocide has been made over and over and has nothing to do with Israel. If I misunderstand you, please present your case for how we can eliminate radical Islam. | ||
| ae35unit Citizen Username: Ae35unit Post Number: 157 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hoops, pull yourself together man......... Post away. |
