| Author | Message | ||
     MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4437 Registered: 5-2001  |
http://www.southorangevillage.com/cgi-bin/show.cgi?tpc=3133&post=654464#POST6544 64 | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese  Post Number: 1839 Registered: 7-2004  |
(cont.) MHD, I am in no way supporting Palestine or Israel. I actually think of them as a bunch of little children fighting. All I am saying is that you cannot say all Palestinian are terrorists. Just the same way as saying all Israelis are terrorists. It is just ignorant. And while I really like the idea of a rally for peace, I don't think it can really be a rally for peace when it is headlined in this way of "support Israel, oh, and also support peace while you are here if you feel like it." Perhaps it would be better to just have a rally for peace which brings together both sides. | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 1840 Registered: 7-2004 |
I just don't want to get caught up in a discussion of who is right, because they are both wrong. I don't want to have to defend either side, because neither side is worth defending. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1473 Registered: 7-2005  |
Mayor, then stand up and support the side who nobody even gives a chance. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4439 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mayor, Against my better judgement, I'll try this debate for a while.... I did not say ALL Palestinians are terrorists. In the original thread, it was stated this was a rally to support Isreal & "Glock" said he was going to show up to "picket". In my opinion, picketing at this particular rally would imply that you support the kidnapping that started this current "crisis". That kidnapping was a clear case of unprovoked terrorism and it deserves retaliation. | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 1842 Registered: 7-2004 |
I don't support either side. They are both very very wrong. Incidentally, outside of this country most of the rest of the world does support Palestine. | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 1843 Registered: 7-2004 |
This is what you said. When I asked if those who support Palestine and peace may go to the rally. "I had no idea you supported Terrorism and kidnapping." I just don't think you can equate not supporting Israel with supporting terrorism. That is all I am saying. I have no intention or thought of picketing this event. I just don't like the way it is trying to bill itself as a rally for peace when it is seems that it is really a rally for Israel. The two are not the same. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12184 Registered: 5-2001 |
One man's kidnapping is another man's prisoner of war. It all depends on who gets to write the history books. I support Israel moving against Hezbollah given the provocation and the rocket attacks. However, they would have been more effective if they concentrated their efforts on the area of Lebanon withing range of Israeli cities. Up until the systematic dismantaling of the Lebanese economy and infrastructure, the Shia's hated the Israelis, the Sunnis didn't like them, but weren't going to do anything about it and the Christians were neutral. Now everyone hates Israel. I doubt if the current Lebanese government is going to survive. Look for a return of Syrian influence and the election of Hezbollah supporters in the next election. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4440 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mayor, Sorry for "lumping" you with Glock. Glock is the one who suggested a "picket" and he made the connection that you & he were in agreement. I don't know if this is a "Rally for peace", but rather a "Rally for Israel" based on the following website: http://www.ohebshalom.org/home/viewEvent.jsp?EventId=2943 | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 1844 Registered: 7-2004 |
I just simply don't like the way it was being sold. It is very decieving. I would hate to show up at what I was told was a peace rally and find myself in the middle of a rally for Israel. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4441 Registered: 5-2001 |
Fair enough. It looks like the confusion from the original thread is all Nancy Janow's fault.  | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1474 Registered: 7-2005 |
There should be apicket. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4442 Registered: 5-2001 |
Freedom of speech - go for it, Glock. It'll make you really easy to spot in the crowd. | ||
| Scully Citizen Username: Scully Post Number: 768 Registered: 8-2005 |
Hezbollah has been firing into Israel (civilian neighborhoods) daily. Israel is fighting back. Are Glock, Mayor and co. such total pacifists that if hit they would not defend themselves? How else is Hezbollah to be stopped? | ||
| Scully Citizen Username: Scully Post Number: 769 Registered: 8-2005 |
Mayor - Israel was attacked and is fighting back, how is that 'equally wrong'? | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1478 Registered: 7-2005 |
Israel has been screwing with these people for years. It is hardly as simple as "They were attacked and are fighting back" | ||
| Josh Holtz Citizen Username: Jholtz Post Number: 537 Registered: 4-2004 |
"Israel has been screwing with these people for years." Oh Glock - now you are truly showing your age. | ||
| Slim Jim Citizen Username: Arrakis Post Number: 29 Registered: 6-2005 |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel "In 1967 Israeli aircraft attacked the USS Liberty, killing 34 American servicemen. American and Israeli investigations into the incident have officially concluded that the attack was a tragic accident involving confusion over the identity of the Liberty. However, as set forth in James Bamford's book Body of Secrets (regarding the NSA), the Liberty was an NSA spy vessel that Israel intentionally destroyed in order to prevent it from documenting war atrocities commited by Israel in Egypt at the onset of the Six-Day War. President Johnson did not want to embarass Israel, so the truth was never told." | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4514 Registered: 12-2001  |
Well now, that's a new spin on an old story. I believe that the Israeli attack was deliberate just to keep the U.S. in the dark, but not to cover up Isreali war crimes that would not, in any case, have been visible for the sea. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 747 Registered: 1-2006 |
Ahh, the latest world domination Jewish conspiracy. It would have been so much better if the Europeans finished them off the first time. Now it is up to the Islamofascists. Wikipedia, not peer reviewed, open to anyone with the time, and opinion. jd | ||
| Larry Seltzer Citizen Username: Elvis Post Number: 112 Registered: 4-2006  |
It's OK boys, I've reported this portion of the thread to World Jewish Conspiracy headquarters, and it will "disappear" soon. As documented by Hamas, our stooges in the Lions, Masons and Rotary clubs will do the dirty work for us. | ||
| Scully Citizen Username: Scully Post Number: 773 Registered: 8-2005 |
Glock - "Israel has been screwing with these people for years." Please check out the actual history. Every time Israel went in it was to stop attacks, often on civilians. Just glancing over the history I can see how tempers are getting a little hair-trigger by now... And as you can see limited responses haven't worked in the past and so they seem determined to get the job done this time. Each time they went in it was a RESPONSE. Ergo, don't attack Israel, you don't get hit back. Lots of online sources. I got this Reader's Digest version from Wikipedia. First Israeli 'invasion': Cross-border attacks by Palestinian groups in southern Lebanon against civilians in Israeli territory led to an invasion by the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) on March 14, 1978 in what was titled the Litani River Operation. A few days later, the United Nations Security Council passed resolutions 425 and 426, calling for the withdrawal of Israeli forces, removal of the militant Palestinian forces, and establishing an international peace-keeping force Pro-Palestinian forces including Hizbollah have remained in the region in violation of the UN cease fire agreement Second Israeli 'invasion': The PLO's armed forces continued to use Lebanon as a base to attack Israel with rockets and artillery, and on June 6, 1982 Israel again invaded Lebanon with the objective of evicting the PLO. As of 16 June 2000, Israel had withdrawn its forces from Lebanon in accordance with UN Security Council Resolution 425 of 1978, bringing, in the UN's opinion, closure to the 1982 invasion. And that brings us up to today: The 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict or 2006 Hezbollah-Israel conflict is a series of ongoing military actions and clashes in northern Israel and southern Lebanon involving Hezbollah's armed wing and the Israeli Defense Forces. On 12 July 2006, Hezbollah's armed wing initiated their Operation Truthful Promise[1]. Eight Israeli soldiers were killed and two were captured. Israel then responded with Operation Just Reward[2], later renamed Operation Change of Direction. | ||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 2587 Registered: 6-2003 |
Looks like there's a bunch of "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" fans in here. I hear there's a white sheet sale on fellas, get em while there hot. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1482 Registered: 7-2005 |
Next thing you know the Jewish community will be wearing armbands...and marching in the streets doing their special "wave", and then... | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4516 Registered: 12-2001 |
Believing that the attack on USS Liberty was deliberate has nothing to do with anti-Jewish conspiracy theories. Definitely in the Yom Kippur War and most likely in the Six-Day War, it was to Israel's benefit to not have anybody understand the true situation in the Sinai since Israel was in control in both wars. So, the attack on USS Liberty might have been a legitimate case of mistaken identity and it could very well have been deliberate. When a country is fighting for its very survival, it will do anything to prevail. Britain certainly did in World Wars I and II. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1485 Registered: 7-2005 |
Israel is hardly "Fighting for its very survival." | ||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 2588 Registered: 6-2003 |
Max Bialystock could've used you guys. | ||
| Larry Seltzer Citizen Username: Elvis Post Number: 113 Registered: 4-2006 |
Israel may or may not be fighting for its survival now, but it certainly was in 67 and 73, which was the context of tjohn's message. I've never understood why the Israelis would have thought it in their interest to sink an American ship. They never tried to hide what they did in Egypt once it was done, and it wasn't plausible that the Americans would be tipping off the Egyptians. (The Liberty was in the neighborhood of Egypt and the Israelis say they thought it was an Egyptian vessel.) In the aftermath of the war the Egyptians claimed that the Americans actively intervened on behalf of Israel and that it was in fact American planes that destroyed the Egyptian air force. The Soviets made similar claims. It's remarkable how much blame the Soviets deserve for the development of the 67 crisis. They goaded the Syrians and Egyptians into attacking with fake intelligence. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3590 Registered: 5-2004  |
Glock, you really don't understand what goes on over there, do you? I started to write a response to what you post, but the reality is that you will not change your mind, no matter what you are told. Perhaps if you read some of the history of the area, you might. I am not happy with the way Israel has reacted to the kidnappings and shellings, but that does not cloud my understanding of the history of the region. For someone who claims others are closed minded, you sure seem to not have room to understand the issues here. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1099 Registered: 4-2006 |
I missed the last Jewish world domination meeting. Joel, do you have the new date yet? And will we be grinding Glock 17 up to make matzah?  | ||
| kathleen Citizen Username: Symbolic Post Number: 577 Registered: 3-2005 |
Larry, I never understood why the Israelis thought it was in their interests to do a lot of things they've done. Glock, I see nothing wrong with anybody attending the rally with signs opposing Israel's course of action or to debate, but the problem isn't in the Jewish community. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12187 Registered: 5-2001 |
It is, well, amusing, to see Israel hanging their actions on a UN resolution, when there are so many UN resolutions against them they have ignored. You are either with the UN or against them.  | ||
| Scully Citizen Username: Scully Post Number: 784 Registered: 8-2005 |
I don't think so. How is OUR record with them? Not 100% either way I think. And I know we've had issues paying our dues in the past! | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1795 Registered: 9-2004  |
" Perhaps it would be better to just have a rally for peace which brings together both sides. I just don't want to get caught up in a discussion of who is right, because they are both wrong. I don't want to have to defend either side, because neither side is worth defending. DITTO! I just simply don't like the way it was being sold. It is very decieving. I would hate to show up at what I was told was a peace rally and find myself in the middle of a rally for Israel. Mayor, the end quote to that rally: “Speak out now against terrorism and in support of Israel’s right to self-defense.” Doesn’t sound like a PEACE rally when defending oneselves. Right to self-defense often means some kind of violence is involved. Interesting quote someone posted on another website: “Folks cling to the sophomoric view that if you use violence to intimidate another party, that they are then "taught a lesson". I got a news flash for those folks out there: it doesn't intimidate anyone. It just pisses them off and instills a desire to retaliate. Maybe it makes you feel better in a retaliatory sense, but at the end of the day the cycle of violence continues--and often escalates.” The cycle of violence is NOW occurring between Israel & Hezbollah. Again, often the innocent are the ones caught up in this violence. Some of the Westerners living in Lebanon are having a hard time escaping the violence because the roadways, bridges, and airport runways have been bomb by Israel. Bombed roads are hampering aid efforts, with the UN warning the humanitarian crisis is worsening by the hour. Israel was attacked and is fighting back, how is that 'equally wrong'? Scully, When the Hezzbollah kidnapped those 2 soldiers, I believe Israel BOMBED first? Correct me if I'm wrong. Again, in the past, the Israel’s Intelligence has been superd when rooting out and targeting the guilty parties involved. They usually concentrated on the problem area, NOT, bomb-up most of southern Lebanon and killing over 300 citizens and displacing 500,000 out of their homes. “The United Nations' emergency relief co-ordinator, Jan Egeland, said that without a truce allowing aid agencies to begin the relief effort there would be a "catastrophe". "It is nearly impossible in southern Lebanon to move anything anywhere because it is too dangerous," he said. Mr Egeland said that neither Hezbollah nor the Israelis seemed to care about civilian suffering, adding that nearly a third of the dead or wounded were children and the wounded could not be helped because roads and bridges had been cut by Israeli air strikes. "The Israeli military attacks are all over the country. There are aerial bombardments which are in hundreds of places really. I think it is a disproportionate response, really," Mr Egeland told the BBC. "But I also clearly see that Hezbollah is trying to blend into the civilian population in too many places and they bear also a heavy responsibility for this. They do not seem to care that they really inflict a lot of suffering on their own population," he added." As the Mayor pointed out, BOTH are equally wrong in this escalating conflict. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1490 Registered: 7-2005 |
Hezbollah isn''t really part of the lebanese population. I dislike the way that is written. They come from all over and just choose to hide in Lebanon. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3592 Registered: 5-2004 |
Phenix, actually, Hezbollah has been bombing Israel for a long time. Long before these soldiers were kidnapped. So yes, you are wrong, and I am correcting you. Glock, Hezbollah is a part of the Lebanese population. They are a political party there, not, as you would like to believe, a group of rag tag freedom fighters coming from around the Arab world to liberate their Lebanese brethren. The Lebanese people don't want war with Israel, but they are not yet willing to completely reject Hezbollah to get peace. It is the same situation for the Palestinians. They want it both ways. The majority probably do want peace, yet they elect Hamas, a terrorist organization, to represent them. I feel for the civilians on both sides being killed. But if Hamas and Hezbollah put down their arms, there will be peace. If the Israelils do, they will get killed. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1796 Registered: 9-2004 |
Phenix, actually, Hezbollah has been bombing Israel for a long time. Long before these soldiers were kidnapped. So yes, you are wrong, and I am correcting you. Thanks for correction. However, it does not EXCUSE Israels disappropriate action on the Lebonese people. You must punish a whole country because of a minority? I'll correct your above statement: If Hamas, Hezbollah and Israel put down their arms, there will be peace. Glock, Hezbollah is the most powerful representative of Shiites. And, Hezbollah was elected and is part of the Lebanese government today. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3597 Registered: 5-2004 |
Actually, if Hamas and Hezbollah put down their weapons, Israel would end its attacks. They have almost exclusively attacked as retaliation, whereas Hamas has used suicide bombers, and Hezbollah has been shelling Northern Israel for a long time. Israel has no reason to put down their arms, since they are a sovereign nation with a right to an army. If Hamas and Hezbollah stopped their attacks and disbanded their militant wings, there would be no reason for Israel to attack them. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1709 Registered: 10-2004  |
Rastro - I agree. Lebanon needs to have governmental control of its population such that stockpiles of misiles and weapons are not in the hands of either private citizens or resident aliens but rather under lock and key. Lebanon needs to prevent militias from being in existence outside of the Lebanese armed forces. Hezbollah members who are responsible for attacking Israel should be punished as criminals not revered as revolutionaries. Israel should not be blowing up Lebanons infrastructure nor its civilian population. I hope that they wrap up their hostilities as quickly as possible and then fully support both financially and physically the repair of all the roads, bridges, homes and other damage they have done. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3598 Registered: 5-2004 |
I just got this from a cousin, via my father, in Israel:
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