| Author | Message | ||
     Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1395 Registered: 4-2006 |
Having had a "demonizing islam" thread it seemed to me there was no equivalent and needed discussion of latent anti-semitism being the root cause for anti-Israel positions among individuals. Anti-semitism's growth in Europe was attributed to the role of Jew's being non-christian strangers, and a well-know minority which was not european in origin. Since that time it has been viewed as having developed into latent and intellectual anti-semitic strains. It has been theorized that the existence of the state of Israel had the effect of transferring anti-Jewish animus to Israel, Israel becoming the collective Jew, replacing the individual Jew as the source of dislike and focus of animousity for those so disposed. Additionally being anti-Israel has become viewed as being socially acceptable, while traditional expressions of anti-semitism, coming after the Holocaust, are not. Having a open discussion, and applying the concern for tolerance and opposition to bigotry that MOL is know for, can we honestly say latent anti-semitism is not a part of, underline, or result in positions and opinions taken against Israel, in whole or in part? Your opinions as to the extent latent anti-semitism comes to bare? | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3839 Registered: 3-2004  |
FVF: You confuse being in disagreement with an Israeli national policy as being "anti-Israel." That's simplistic and insulting. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1397 Registered: 4-2006 |
tulip- According to you, "national policy" is wanton murder which it ain't. So your post is the insulting one. Maybe you need to re-read this thread? | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave  Post Number: 10467 Registered: 4-1997  |
If two people disagree about Israel's foreign or domestic policy, must one of them by definition always be anti-semitic? | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3841 Registered: 3-2004 |
Maybe you need to restate it. Watch your use of the word "anti-semitic." You are insulting people who do not deserve it. Being thoughtful about morality, identity, religion and warfare does not equal anti-anything. And as for what I said before about Israel, that was immediately and readily and with great glee at my banning, ruled "anti-semitism" it was, in fact, outrage at the behavior of a nation-state, which is allowed in this world. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3842 Registered: 3-2004 |
Are all fifteen members of the UN Security Council anti-semitic because they voted in favor of the cease-fire? Many of them expressed outrage and disappointment with the loss of life as a result of Israel's policy. Israel does not have the world at its side right now. Do you attribute that to anti-semitism? If so, I feel quite sorry for you. You are confounding rational thought with irrational feeling. They are not the same, and mixing them can be quite dangerous. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5469 Registered: 5-2001 |
For those on the right wing, oversimplification and insult are all in a day's work. | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 1446 Registered: 2-2004 |
tom, Your forgot the laughing at libs part. That is a huge part of my day. | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 714 Registered: 2-2003 |
Tulip, I think a better question about the UN cease-fire resolution would be: Since Israeli PM Olmert has endorsed the UN cease-fire resolution, and since the Israeli cabinet will endorse the resolution tomorrow, does that mean that anyone who opposes or denigrates the resolution is anti-semitic? | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3847 Registered: 3-2004 |
Yes, Paul, that would be a good question. | ||
| Nuff Sayid Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 478 Registered: 6-2005  |
or how many years does it take a people to be free? The answer is blowing in the wind...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUz2OulZ-q4&mode=related&search= | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1398 Registered: 4-2006 |
Well, I do appreciate the graciousness of some posters here in their willingness to "help me out " in changing the context and question of my thread. Not by coincidence, of course, they may be the more Israel-critical MOL posters ! Let's stay the course on this one, shall we? MOL is the place where people bravely challenge prejudice, call out discrimination, and stand for truth, justice, and the american way. Soooo.... when will a courageous non-Jewish poster admit that growing up with the concept that "the Jews killed Jesus" (instead of the Romans)} or other religious dogma or social learning just might impact someone's views on Israel? Can we bring some inherent honesty and seriousness to the subject, the same as we do with all the "right" causes and beliefs discussed on MOL? It seems to me it is much more comfortable for some to see what is wrong in demonizing islam, than looking at a subject far much closer to home, and more directly affecting our society, and perhaps us personally? Frankly, I am not holding my breath on having a deep, serious, and honest conversation on this one.  | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1869 Registered: 10-2004  |
Thats good because the premise for this thread is intellectually dishonest. You pass us some made up theory that you want to argue against, or for, or about that truly makes no sense what-so-ever. Maybe you should just start with an intelligent thought that posters might want to comment on, instead of flawed strawman | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1405 Registered: 4-2006 |
Hoops- You prove my point exactly, since you are one of the least likely, IMHO, to intellectually explore such a topic due to your own deep political prejudices. Tell me, how were you raised to view Jews? | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1870 Registered: 10-2004 |
I love Jews. Tell me how were you raised. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1407 Registered: 4-2006 |
biblically? and does your wife know?  | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1871 Registered: 10-2004 |
A personal idol -  I dont understand your question nor do I understand why you make assumptions when you have no data to begin making your assumptions. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5472 Registered: 5-2001 |
I'm 48 years old, raised catholic in an ethnic neighborhood of Cleveland, attended catechism every Sunday for over 10 years, and never heard "the Jews killed Jesus." For that matter, we never heard anything about the Jews, good or bad, in church. So I don't know just who it was that grew up with this dogma that you're thinking of, other than Mel Gibson. It's really just a fringe element. Yet you feel the need to helpfully inform us in an aside that it was the Romans? I have a feeling you know nothing about Christians. But there can't be an intellectually honest and serious conversation about this as long as you equate being anti-semitic with being anti-Israel with opposing certain actions taken by the Israeli army in southern Lebanon. The three things are wholly separate and independent. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3849 Registered: 3-2004 |
Tom, Where in Cleveland? I was raised there too, in a Jewish neighborhood, where belonging to Ethical Culture was considered radical. I am used to this stuff, but it still rankles. Cleveland has changed much since those days. Have you been back to see the old neighborhood? | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5474 Registered: 5-2001 |
I lived on the east side Harvard & Miles area until I was 5, then the west side, near 130th and Puritas, until I was 9; then we moved down the street a few miles to Brookpark. My parents still live there, as does my brother, so I go back at least once a year. You? | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1408 Registered: 4-2006 |
Hoops- Einstein was a tad forgetful and according to various biographies used to feel free to "relieve" himself (no. 1) on the public streets of Princeton. Have you been similiarly emulating your "idol" in SOMA? tom- So you never heard ANYTHING about the Jews in your religious or social environment, AT ALL? Very, very believable. Have you ever heard of repressed memories?  . My non-Jewish friends that have grown up in various areas of the country have all shared stories with me which seem quite divergent with yours. But otherwise might acknowledge some nuance to anti-Israel posts. Some wag might say the specific area Tulip grew up in would appear to merit an an airstrike given her postings. Me, I would never say that. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1874 Registered: 10-2004 |
In MSH in your yard might be appropriate, IMHO, but no. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3851 Registered: 3-2004 |
Cleveland Heights, FVF. Everyone either went to Temple or Synagogue, and thought Ethical Culture was heresy. I am used to taking this abuse on the chin. Keep it up.  | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1411 Registered: 4-2006 |
They have pinpoint accuracy today, FYI. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3853 Registered: 3-2004 |
tom: I just found your post (above.) I lived in Cleveland Heights from grade three to twelve. We rented first, then bought a house I really grew to love. Used to take Rapid Transit from Shaker Square to Terminal Tower and the public library to do homework for school. Loved Cleveland, but I left right before the riots and the Cuyahoga burning. It's come a long way, it seems, since then. I did go to my Heights High reunion in 1986. My husband and I brought our then three year old with us. Everyone else had kids who were teenagers by then. Went to Fairfax Elementary. Loved it, too. I loved the teachers, the neighborhood, everything. It was very much like Maplewood. It was a great place to grow up. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5475 Registered: 5-2001 |
So tom (me) says "we never heard anything about the Jews, good or bad, in church". FvF replies, "So you never heard ANYTHING about the Jews in your religious or social environment, AT ALL?" FvF earlier wonders why we can't have an open and honest discussion. Golly, it must be my repressed memories! Tulip, I just loved the downtown branch of the Cleveland Library. A wonderful building with a great collection. I'd take the bus up to W.150th, and catch the rapid there into Downtown. Later on in college I'd regularly take it out to University Circle to go to the museums or to see the Orchestra. Brookpark wasn't as nice a place to grow up as Cleveland Heights, it didn't really have any character of its own and was a cultural nothing mostly. I really had to go out of my way to get the kinds of stimulation I needed. I left the area in '79, right after college. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3858 Registered: 3-2004 |
tom: Cleveland Heights High was the best. We had a huge school, about 2000 kids, I think. We had choir, chorus, orchestra, band, art, Russian, French, German, Spanish, bio, chem, all forms of math, everything. As a kid, I went to Girls' Club and Music School Settlement to study music theory, and modern dance with the Western Reserve University modern dance program. I sometimes would take the Rapid Transit to classes as I got into my teens. We all travelled around on our bikes, usually, after school. On Sundays, occasionally, my family would go to Schraffts at Shaker Square for dinner. We would admire the mansions of Fairmount Blvd. and Shaker Heights. Our house was quite modest by comparison. Most of my friends lived in University Heights. I remember how exclusive the private schools (Laurel, Hathaway Brown, etc.etc.) seemed back then. In retrospect, I'm glad I went to public school. The midwest rules in public education, thanks to the La Follette family and a few others who put education first back in the thirties, fourties and fifties. Great to talk to a homie!!!! | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3859 Registered: 3-2004 |
tom: My mother started the senior citizens' center for the UAW in East Cleveland. I remember watching the workers make steel in the mills, the huge fires lighting up the factory. I remember the streets of Hough Ave, also, because I used to go to Karamu House to tutor. I remember my dad driving us around the streets of East Cleveland at Christmas, admiring the elaborate Christmas lights. We were so happy to have a Christmas tree, but also to learn about Judaism and world religions in our Sunday School. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5476 Registered: 5-2001 |
Going to Halle's and Stirling-Linder at Christmastime? | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3860 Registered: 3-2004 |
Halle's and Higbee's!!! Also, we used to ice skate on Shaker Lakes, and sled down the hills. | ||
| anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 2960 Registered: 6-2002 |
Don't you just love MOL! A poster starts a thread on the rather serious topic of anti-semitism. The thread quickly becomes a discussion of neighborhoods in Cleveland.  But seriously, folks: FVF: Don't you think that your assumptions about other people's religious upbringing and your disbelief of tom's statement represents anti-Catholicism? Criticism of the policies of the government of Israel should be judged on their own merits, but won't some of you who are critical of those policies admit that some people who are antagonistic to Israel are motivated, at least in part, by anti-semitism? | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5479 Registered: 5-2001 |
Anon, I'll cheerfully concede that last point. But what I think FVF wants is a frank and honest discussion of why we hate jews so much. And we're having none of that, so that's why my homie tulip and I are hijacking this thread. | ||
| anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 2964 Registered: 6-2002 |
Thanks tom. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that you hate Jews. As to your "homie" check out her remarks about Judaism and the Sabbath. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12384 Registered: 5-2001 |
What is being anti-Israel? Many people are strong supporters of Israel, but view their policies from time to time as self-destructive, the recent air campaign in Lebanon being one, at least in my opinion. It was straight out of the "Bomber" Harris playbook of WWII and just as unsuccesful. The rockets continued to fall on Northern Israel. However, it did get the rest of the Lebanese behind Hezbollah. As a kid in Albany, NY the church we attended had very close relationships with a synagogue across the street, who threw open their doors to us Presbyterians when our church had a very serious fire. At a young age, the kids from both churches were exposed to each other and their practices and belives. From your posts here, and many other posts, I think a lot of Jewish people have a rather warped view of other religions. Honest, in most Christian churces we don't sacrifice a Jewish baby more than once or twice a year.  | ||
| anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 2970 Registered: 6-2002 |
Being "anti-Israel" is calling for its complete obliteration as has the President of Iran. I believe Hezbollah has the same position. Why does Israel's pulling out of Gaza provoke attacks on Israel? | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4678 Registered: 12-2001  |
A portion of the Islamic world will settle for nothing less than the destruction of Israel. This will continue until millions perish in a nuclear war. It's that simple. | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5722 Registered: 10-1999  |
I have to agree that FvF's posts pretty much show ignorance about the teachings of other religions. | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 2349 Registered: 8-2003  |
am I the only one who's pissed off at all these threads implying that non-Jewish "libs" are all anti-Semites? | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3873 Registered: 3-2004 |
Not at all. | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5724 Registered: 10-1999 |
Doctor, Doctor, Doctor, No, you are not the only one. |
