| Author | Message | ||
     tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5491 Registered: 5-2001 |
Not at all. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1419 Registered: 4-2006 |
It seems these must have been putting something in the water in Cleveland back in the day. That would explain a great deal about the posts I see here on MOL.  I am seeing a lot of avoidance and self-defensiveness to seriously addressing this topic here. I am pretty disappointed. Perhaps it's too raw and too real, and not as remote as decrying prejudice against muslims, who I would expect many people in the community have had slim to none experiences with. The gist of the responses remind me of a character's line in a really old TV comedy, whose name escaped me and I had to look up. It was Sgt. Schultze in " Hogan's Heros". Schultze would say "I see nothing" when the prisoners would escape or dig tunnels and stuff like that. From what I am reading it appears that posters never encountered any type of experience/exposure to religious or social anti-semitism at all. Now that is a bit much to swallow. I expected a couple of " rise above" or " but I knew better" stories at a minimum. Not much self-questioning on anti-semitism or attitudes going on, it seems. Perhaps on race, but never apparently, anti-semitism. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1420 Registered: 4-2006 |
anon- Your one of the few here that I don't have to remind that we live in the real world. See my above post. My thread and posts are not directed to any particular branch of christianity. I had a Lutheran guy tell me one day all about how the Jews killed Jesus at the airport! Too bad I couldn't get him on a watch list. Bob K- So how does your heartwarming ecumenical post relate to what I understand was your opposition to the eruv in Maplewood? A "warped" view about what stringing a couple of wires meant? Not to give you a hard time, but just curious. BTW, if you read the post carefully I am also referring to social influences, not talking about direct preaching from the pulpit by a religious figure. | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 2350 Registered: 8-2003  |
you start a "when did you stop beating your wife?" thread and you expect responses? your last post shows what you think - that there are NO answers that you believe are honest, short of an admission of one's own anti-Semitism. you don't even seem aware of how insulting your posts are to any of us who are not Jewish. I'd be ashamed to post such blanket accusations against an entire group of people, even under an alias. but apparently you have no problem smearing millions of Americans as anti-Semites. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5492 Registered: 5-2001 |
In my neighborhood it was about the blacks, the Puerto Ricans, and the Polish. The Jews just never came up. Sorry to disappoint. | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2975 Registered: 5-2001 |
Best line of the evening! | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1421 Registered: 4-2006 |
Winston- And when did I say everyone on MOL was anti-semitic?  You are really working up quite an unnecessary head of steam on that post! Instead of trying to personalize the thread to avoid the substance, why don't you consider the premise intellectually and based on your life experiences? Could people actually be anti-Israel because of latent anti-semitism? So far it seems anti-semitism is merely a figment of the imagination, either that or many of our posters grew up in caves. | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 2351 Registered: 8-2003 |
duh. of course they can. and a lot of people who support Israel completely can be anti-Semitic as well. excuse me for being angry at the latest right-wing talking point, which is that non-Jewish libs are anti-Semitic. it's been discussed with regard to opposition to Joe Lieberman, any criticism of Israel's tactics in the war with Hezbollah, as well as criticisms of the neocons in the U.S. it's all indicative of latent or overt anti-Semitism, according to the wing nuts. it's another attempt at trying to divide Americans for political gain. and a lot of people are falling for it. and yes, it's pissing me off. | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2976 Registered: 5-2001 |
While I can't totally empathize Dr., being a Jewish liberal, I understand your pissedoffness. Would you still be willing to answer my question in the "Calling all Liberals" thread? Thanks. Wendy | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 2352 Registered: 8-2003 |
actually no. I don't feel like dignifying your question with a response. that's why I didn't respond there. and I suspect that's why you're not getting a lot of responses. personally, it's not that I don't support Israel, it's that I don't feel the need to justify it to you, or anyone else for that matter. and perhaps there are others who feel similarly to me. | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5727 Registered: 10-1999  |
Why don't you try a different approach? If you think someone is anti-semitic, then name names. Provide some proof, of course. Otherwise, stop with this generalized hinting that there are anti-semites posting on MOL. | ||
| pcs81632 Citizen Username: Pcs81632 Post Number: 110 Registered: 6-2002  |
The hubris is believeing that the US can clean up hundreds and thousands of years of hatred in the region. This is a Nationalist/Religious pattern of hatred - the Arabs hate the Israelis and the Israelis hate the Arabs, and the Muslims hate the Jews and the Jews hate the Muslims. What makes anyone think that the US, or any other country, can walk in and implement a solution? It took the Irish 900 years to recognize that killing each other leads to more killing. The IRA finally started to talk. If the thick headed Irish (and I'm descended from Irish immigrants) can figure that out, why can't the residents of the middle east, whether they are Arabs, Israelis, Jews or Muslims? | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2977 Registered: 5-2001 |
Well Dr. the problem and the reason why I posed my question is that I felt that only Jewish liberals were stating in Soapbox that they were supporting Israel. Oh yes there are others supporting Israel but they are the antithesis of liberal. So...... I was concerned with that and therefore started that thread. I'm not asking anyone to justify anything. It's just that some of the most "liberal" posters on MOL who are not Jewish have not sounded particularly supportive of Israel ever, either during peacetime or not. So, while I respect your decision to not answer, I hope you can understand my question as a liberal, progressive Jewish Democrat. | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5728 Registered: 10-1999 |
Let go of the propaganda that is out there. Conservative supporters of the Bush Administration are trying to spread the fallacy that they are the only ones who want Israel to survive. Those people are, of course, contemptible. This discussion should take place apart from domestic politics. Anybody who combines the two, should be disregarded as a political hack. | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 2353 Registered: 8-2003 |
it is propaganda. apparently, if one doesn't come out as sufficiently, vocally pro-Israel, it means you don't believe Israel should exist and that it shouldn't defend itself? please. no, that question doesn't deserve a response (imho) | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2980 Registered: 5-2001 |
Nohero, I want to believe what you said and check what anon wrote in the thread I started. However, I know several Jews who <gasp> voted for Bush the second time he ran because of their concern about the Democrats weak support for Israel. Now one can say perhaps they weren't really true Democratic liberals and perhaps that's right. I suppose the propaganda in this arena had more effect than any Swift boats. I also think the Democratic party better get its act together so we can finally have a more caring, compassionate executive and send Bush, Cheney and Rove back to their ranches or duck or witch hunts. Nohero, I look at how Europe is reacting to this conflict (in addition to the rise of anti-semitism there as well), Europe without the oil reserves we have, and I get plenty scared. My thread/question was legitimate, perhaps not the most politic, but legitimate. | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5730 Registered: 10-1999 |
Wendy, your "Calling all Liberals" thread was fine, but I hope you realize that it is the rare Liberal who is anti-semitic. There are a lot of conservatives, however, who have decided that calling people "anti-semitic" is the way to support their otherwise unsupportable positions. People who truly support Israel want peace in the Middle East. People who don't care what happens to Israel, but who want to use Israel for their own ends, want more war. That's the bottom line. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1879 Registered: 10-2004  |
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| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12386 Registered: 5-2001 |
Fvf, wrong. I had a lot of questions about the Eruv, but supported it. I do admit however, I wouldn't be thrilled if MW was taken over by the ultra-orthodox because of the Eruv. A move to help our orthodox friends and neighbors (of which we had both) is one thing. To change the nature of a community is another. In a number of towns in NJ the opposistion to a Eruv was led by less conservative Jewish people. | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 2354 Registered: 8-2003 |
I suppose I can understand, but I think you're drawing a false conclusion. Personally, I don't post on this board about Israel because the exchanges typically descend into accusations and name-calling. This may be the first time I've ever posted anything in a thread on Israel, and I did only because I'm angry over the cavalier accusations of anti-Semitism. (And more than likely it will be my last). So I believe for you to read anything into non-response is a mistake. My non-response is because I don't care to participate in discussions that are likely to devolve into insults and accusations. Unfortunately, we live in a time and place in which it's near impossible to have a fruitful discussion of how to bring peace to the Middle East. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4687 Registered: 12-2001  |
I wonder how many anti-Semites support(ed) the establishment of Israel in hopes that all Jews would relocate to Israel. I wonder how many anti-Zionists foresaw that the establishment of Israel was sowing the seeds of a bitter harvest we would reap for many years to come. | ||
| gertie Citizen Username: Gertie Post Number: 15 Registered: 6-2006 |
Should Americans be putting Israel's interests ahead of their own nation's interests? I have no attachments to anything in the Middle East. I'm not against Israel, nor am I against the Palistinians, the Lebanese, Jordanians, Egyptians, etc. I say let Israel and its neighbors work out things for themselves. We only put ourselves in harms way by meddling. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4688 Registered: 12-2001 |
A nation must always put its own national interests first. It does a disservice to itself and the world if it does not. I do not believe that our long-term national interests were advanced by the recent Israeli military action which used a lot of Made in USA military equipment. The issue is not one of Israel's right to self-defense, but instead, with the way in which Israel conducted the military campaign. It seems that they joined a long line of military thinkers who have argued that air campaigns alone can produce desired behavioral changes by your enemies. I can ascribe this only to hubris on the part of the Israeli Air Force and inexperience on the part of Olmert. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1423 Registered: 4-2006 |
Well I have to say this has been a vastly disappointing thread as posters here, who forgive me if I am being simplistic, tend to always post from a liberal or progressive perspective on political and social issues here on MOL, seem unwilling to actually and honestly explore the subject of anti-semitism impacting the positions and viewpoints taken on Israel, "the collective Jew". I find in their posts that they are largely posting to themselves, and not engaging in a dialogue with me on the topic. It is as if anti-semitism has never or does not exist in american society. Or they are refusing to recognize it's existence, while they recognize and agonize over other forms of prejudice and discrimination, like those based on race, gender, or sexual orientation. And self-correct for them. Why so? Friends of mine over the years have shared with me their own exposure to anti-semitism, experiences in their church youth group, a favorite uncle, etc.. They acknowledge that childhood experiences with prejudice leave their mark, and have affected or might affect their viewpoints towards or about Jews, unless and until they honestly question and intellectually police themselves. The question and thread then, is legitimate, important, and deserving of serious response. The failure to repond accordingly can't help but diminish posters' otherwise well-written criticism of Israel in my eyes, and those of other critically thinking people. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4690 Registered: 12-2001 |
OK. We seem to have collectively disappointed FvF. Please, will everybody confess to being either an anti-Semite or a self-loathing Jew. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1424 Registered: 4-2006 |
Bob K- The only issue that should matter is whether people are buying homes at market rates. And how would your post be viewed if "African-American" was substituted for " ultra-orthodox"? | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3878 Registered: 3-2004  |
tjohn: You have to add the strawberry epithet, "filthy" to my adjectives. I am a filthy, self-hating Jew and an anti-semite. Yup. | ||
| Aquaman Supporter Username: Aquaman Post Number: 989 Registered: 8-2001  |
Factsvfiction, "I find in their posts that they are largely posting to themselves, and not engaging in a dialogue with me on the topic. " 3 words: 1. Wah 2. Amen brother. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1426 Registered: 4-2006 |
Tjohn- Don't worry, I already dismiss your posts.  Aquaman- So you must have found some Hezbollah voters then in the village for next year's democratic primary? Katyusha-gate?  | ||
| Aquaman Supporter Username: Aquaman Post Number: 991 Registered: 8-2001 |
Factsvfiction, You're MOL's numero-uno balls-out racist. Anyone who disagrees with you is anti-semitic or dismissed. Look in the deep dark truthful mirror. Please, for the love of God, Abraham or Allah post where I have ever supported Hezbollah or their mission. If you can't support your specious attacks with facts than please shuddup. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1434 Registered: 4-2006 |
Aquaman- Considering your reasoning skills, quality of judgement, and comprehension of complex issues, I guess your post should be classified as a compliment. Per chance you should stick with what you know and lose at, Maplewood politics? Always my best, FVF | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1437 Registered: 4-2006 |
Hezbollah reference a joke, btw. Now you can go back to scouring the threads for "racists". | ||
| Aquaman Supporter Username: Aquaman Post Number: 992 Registered: 8-2001 |
Facts, "post where I have ever supported Hezbollah or their mission" I win this round oh racist one - yes? Do we really have to still pretend you live in Millburn-Short Hills? How's "the store" doing? | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1441 Registered: 4-2006 |
tulip- I just thought you were making the world safe for Mel Gibson. That's all. Aquaman- A mind is a terrible thing to waste. | ||
| Aquaman Supporter Username: Aquaman Post Number: 993 Registered: 8-2001 |
FVF - "A mind is a terrible thing to waste" cleveeer. Your comebacks based on 20-year-old ad slogans always slay me. The Hezbollah reference? You (factsvfiction) posted: "Hezbollah reference a joke, btw." I missed the irony. Break it down for me factsvfiction. Where's the funny in your joke? | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1446 Registered: 4-2006 |
If you can't bring anything intellectual, insightful, or relevant to the table, don't clutter the thread with your childish nonsense. Thanks. | ||
| themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 3186 Registered: 12-2001  |
Do we really have to still pretend you live in Millburn-Short Hills? How's "the store" doing? Huh? | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro  Post Number: 3722 Registered: 5-2004  |
I'm Jewish, spent 8 years in Yeshiva, 4 years of high school going to Prozdor at the Jewish Theological Seminary, and lived in a very Jewish neighborhood growing up with a relatively conservative Conservative (yes, that's intentional) synagogue. I can't honestly say I have ever heard any negative comments about other religions in any of the classes or sermons I witnessed. I cannot imagine that any religion based on "do unto others, as you would have done unto you" would outwardly profess hatred or even distrust of another religion. Now, that's not to say that people don't have opinions, and don't discuss those opinions. But it's absurd to believe that these things are taught and indoctrinated in people in mainstream religious institutions. Do some people have anti-Israel beliefs due to anti-Semitism? Of course. To deny that is ridiculous. But I doubt very much that a large proportion (or even a significant number) of posters on MOL feel this way. I do sometimes feel that people are more harsh in their treatment of Israel than most other countries (other than the US), but I cannot be certain that some of that is not my own sensitivity. Everyone here is so certain about all their opinions and beliefs. That, more than any one religion or ethnicity, is what causes these kinds of conflicts. So FvF, yes, there probably are one or two people who believe that way you are assuming they do. Are you really expecting them to come out and say it? I hope you're not holding your breath. But you want to paint a whole swath of people with the same brush because their opinions are different than yours. I do find it funny, however, that after posting this: You followed up with this:
I don't know if it's irony, but it was telling. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1447 Registered: 4-2006 |
Rastro- I appreciate your post for the time and thoughtfullness that you invested in it. However you, joined by some of the non-Jewish posters to this thread, are proceeding on the basis of an assumption about my own beliefs and motivations in making this thread. What I have really asked posters to do here is essentially question. Either the basis of their firmly held beliefs about Israel or that of others. While most of the posters in political on MOL appear judgemental, I make no judgements against, and ascribe no anti-semitism to, the vast majority as your post claims, in this or any other thread. I have simply asked posters to think about the subject and apply the same critical thinking that they would, for example, about racism influencing opinions. Clearly questioning and critical analysis of anti-semitic thought does not rise to the same level of concern or interest as prejudice based on race does to MOL posters. Perhaps it is the political dispostion, who knows. Sadly, I find your closing comments a wholly gratuitous reproach. Perhaps you have not read the body of tulip's work on MOL? I doubt that, so I can only conclude what I have stated. You do know better. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1909 Registered: 10-2004 |
Are you talking to yourself here? No one cares if you are disappointed. Now you bring up the concept of “the collective Jew” in an attempt to perhaps conflate any opposition to Israeli state actions with anti-Semitism.
Its MOL not a coffee klatch. Even more then that is the fact that you never address what anyone says in their posts to you, so you are the number one guilty party of your own accusation.
Non Jewish posters may never have been exposed to anti-Semitism and many Jewish posters may likewise have never experienced anti-Semitism directly. But basically the premise of the thread is personal experience so why should anyone state they have annecdotal experience if they dont.
You use your personal life experience and expect that whatever you experienced is similar to everyone elses experience, yet you constantly claim superiority of knowledge from your experiences. It cant be both.
This is a conclusion based on faulty reasoning. In your eyes every non-Jew must be at least a little anti-Semitic and every Jew who criticizes "the collective Jew" is self-loathing. Based on your personal experience you can come to no other conclusion but if you actually read what others have written you will find that there are other conclusions. |
