| Author | Message | ||
     Scully Citizen Username: Scully Post Number: 951 Registered: 8-2005 |
GOP Man - I still can't get past your statement: 'I think the Iraqi deaths are a price we have to be prepared to pay...' Uh, isn't that a price that the people actually dieing are paying, not us? Surely you're not implying that 'we' decide that it's worth it for 'them' to die for us? | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1936 Registered: 10-2004  |
Numbers are impersonal. Everyone can count and 3000 is only a representation of something entirelly too horrible to contemplate in reality. 3000 is the approximate number that died in 9/11. 3000 is the approximate number of American dead in Iraq. http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ they arent just numbers http://icasualties.org/oif/  where they come from -  | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1939 Registered: 10-2004 |
17 more dead today | ||
| S.L.K. 2.0 Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1876 Registered: 10-2005  |
oh no.... people die in war? never saw that coming. -sllk | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5751 Registered: 10-1999  |
The current Administration "never saw that coming". Weren't they the ones who told us the war would be cheap and easy? | ||
| Spinal Tap Citizen Username: Spinaltap11 Post Number: 182 Registered: 5-2006  |
Actually, I think the president has said the total opposite. That the war would be very long, arduous, and expensive, in a way that no other war this country has ever fought has been. In fact, I think he has referred to it as a generational struggle. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider  Post Number: 15383 Registered: 1-2003  |
That was after it became apparent it isn't the cake-walk that Secretary Rumsfeld promised. (And shucks, where are the flowers to be thrown at our feet?) Let's keep track of the timeline, OK? A retroactive warning isn't of any value. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10543 Registered: 4-1997  |
Bush was talking about the unwinnable war against "terrorism". No one throughout human history has ever defeated a verb. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15582 Registered: 10-2001  |
HI KINGY | ||
| S.L.K. 2.0 Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1879 Registered: 10-2005 |
yakitty yak yak yak. Stop whining and offer solutions please. I know those left of the dial have a hard time with such a concept but moaning about the other guy doesn't constitute a solution...neither does seeking out "root causes" and sticking your head in the sand..... -SLK | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1943 Registered: 10-2004 |
SLK your compassion is boundless. Maybe someday someone will show you some compassion for pain suffered in your personal life and then you might get an epiphany on what that actually means. There are plenty of solutions that have been offered. This thread is not about solutions it is about facts. Because you dont like the facts you decide to change the message. So sorry but the message is still  | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5753 Registered: 10-1999 |
Hoops, stop whining and offer solutions, please. Sure, the car has been driven over a cliff, and maybe there aren't a lot of good choices left for a solution. But wasting time pointing out that the driver drove the car over a cliff is not the way to go. Sure, the driver is getting behind the wheel of another car, and just because he drove over a cliff the first time is no reason to suspect that he'll do it again. So stop trying to find out where we went wrong. If you can't come up with a good way to fix what President Bush screwed up, you obviously have no business giving your opinion here.  | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3727 Registered: 5-2001  |
oh no.... people die in war? never saw that coming. -slk Definitely one of the most willfully asinine posts in recent MOL history not by Strawberry. And I have a vague recollection that he's posted that precise bit of dreck previously. 9/11 was such a clear and massive tragedy, yet that number of people dying every month is a complete snooze-fest to the neocons, what with freedom being on the march and all. | ||
| Twokitties Citizen Username: Twokitties Post Number: 497 Registered: 8-2004 |
Sadly, that's the kind of compassion we've come to expect from administration apologists. | ||
| Illuminated Radish Citizen Username: Umoja Post Number: 60 Registered: 6-2006 |
NoHero, It's justified to complain about the carcrash happening when the people in the car keep dying! | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 918 Registered: 1-2006 |
Survival tips from Iraq, I kid you not. That is, if you are Sunni. Most interesting are the tips on being Shi‘i a provided on a Sunni website, the Iraqi League (with typos fixed and slight edits to the Times spellings): 1. Practise imitating another personality and have an ID with another name (you can get these forged IDs from Muraydi market in Sadr city), especially if your name was ‘Umar or ‘Uthman and if your family name was Dulaymi or Janabi, or if your birthplace was in one of the Sunni-majority cities 2. Memorise the names of the 12 imams 3. Learn to pray in the Shia way and carry turba [Shia holy clay] in your pocket. 4. Keep a turba in your house where it can be seen, and put up if necessary a black or a green banner on the roof 5. Keep a poster in your house of Imam Hussein. You can buy them in Mutanabbi Street in Baghdad 6. Keep a copy of the Sajadi newspaper [a Shia paper that has Shia prayers] and read some of the prayers, some of them are touchingly beautiful 7. Keep a latmiya [Shia song] on your mobile phone 8. Learn how to curse Yazid and Mu‘awiya and Bani Umayya [early Sunni caliphs hated by the Shias] and in the way the Shias do 9. Wear or keep black clothes in your house, especially in ceremonies that demand it 10. Learn about the different Shia ceremonies (the death of the imams, their birth and the joy of Zahra) 11. Pray in a Husseiniya or a Shia mosque. Remember that Shia and Sunnis are not enemies, but there are misled, ignorant people and victims of evil plans who want to spread the breadth of hostility in Iraq | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1463 Registered: 4-2006 |
Should we bring a historical perspective to loss of life in the case of a societal revolution? Should we bring an intellectual understanding of upheaval and loss under those circumstances? Did not the majority of Iraqis support deposing thirty years of Saddam Hussein's autocratic and despotic rule? Wouldn't Iraqis be dying anyway, despite George Bush, and perhaps more, given a society that has no democratic heritage, and simmering ethnic and religious groups? Thoughts: How many people died during the Cultural Revolution in China ? How many died under Stalin's plans to collectivize the Soviet Union? How many died during the French revolution? Loss of human life is always regrettable, but the handwringing over the deaths of Iraqis in this thread seem more tied to a domestic political agenda than it does a nuanced view of how massive political and societal change and revolution can play out. | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3729 Registered: 5-2001 |
Fiction: Go fondle yourself elsewhere. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1464 Registered: 4-2006 |
notehead- You display the keen intellect and deep thoughtfullness of the true believer. Now take your kool-aid and go sit in the corner. Oh by the way, what have you and your "crew " done about Darfur? | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3777 Registered: 5-2004  |
"Nuanced" You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3730 Registered: 5-2001 |
Given money, and called Pascrell's office, which is about all I can do. What have you done? | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1465 Registered: 4-2006 |
I can understand why responding to subjects from an intellectual or rational approach can offend people who just want to approach them from an emotional or partisan political perspective. Unfortunately for some George Bush did not personally create the deep-rooted hatred among the Shi'ite, Sunni, and Kurds, Saddam Hussein did. As Iraq is majority Shi'a they are likely to be the ones controlling the country in any representative government, if the Sunnis oppose this, how is this George Bush's fault? If there would be a civil war anyway if Saddam had been deposed or assassinated, again how is Bush primarily at fault if he has tried to help construct a government in a country which has not known democracy? Mindless anti-Bush vitriol is eating away at your thoughtfullness, reflection, and yes, nuance. Just hate the man purely and directly without having to gussy it up with policy and governance issues and you will be more intellectually honest and save people from having to waste time trying to discuss issues in many un-needed anti-Bush premised threads where they can be told they are " fondling" themselves by emotional anti-Bushers. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1945 Registered: 10-2004 |
Nice questions but apropos of what? Are you going to bring us some 'historical' perspective on Iraq? Give me a break. We invaded a sovereign nation for no true cause and have through our boneheadedness and our ignorance created the perfect conditions for a civil war. We have denied aid to Iraqis in the form of jobs and support to instead pursue American interests in building permanent military bases and to secure the oil supply. Its not wonder that they hate us. If there ever was a shread of affection and admiration for America in Iraq, it is long gone. All we are now to them is a foreign power occupier. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 15384 Registered: 1-2003 |
factvsfiction, sometimes one of my kids deserves a swift kick in the head. Truly. But I would be wrong in delivering it. We are not the messengers of cultural revolution. It is not our culture to till and reseed. And all of this is making excuses. We paid no such lip service before starting the war. Sorry, but unless you really stay the course, and I'm talking about sticking to one set of reasons for the same war, you are just making excuses for a major botch job. It amazes me that Americans want so badly to stand behind their president that they will swallow such lies and spit them out and ask us to thank them for vomiting on us. But when I think about it, I actually do understand it. I think people are more comfortable with fear than just about any emotion. It's easy to rally people with fear than any other way. So here we are, united, sort of, against a common enemy. It doesn't matter that the enemy didn't exist in the first place. It's an enemy, and having an enemy binds us together. | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3731 Registered: 5-2001 |
Yeah, call it all anti-Bush vitriol if it helps you avoid the valid points many have already made here and in so many other threads. Very impressive. If you spent less time telling other people what they think and more time responding to what they actually say, you might gain half a grain of credibility. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5814 Registered: 8-2003 |
No true cause? There were 12 odd UN resolutions along the firm belief ourselves and the overwhelming majority of world intelligence that Saddam had WMD. Because he doesn't have WMD doesn't negate the UN Resolutions or the genocidal acts he commited, the same type of acts we're supposed to go to Darfur for and we did go to The Balkans over. Botch Job? In hindsight, yes on some fronts, no on others. Unlike any other war? No, including the ally-riddled WW1 and 2. Denying aid to Iraqis? if all we had to do was shovel money into the country we would do it, but conditions there don't allow it. Graft and misspent millions? Sure, it's part of the territory with any operation of this size. There was no enemy there? I don't think there's any way of convincing you that Iraq posed a threat to the US and our allies and the region. But they did. If you don't see that, I can't help you. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1946 Registered: 10-2004 |
The enemy was in Afghanistan, not Iraq. Saddam was bottled up with no fly zones and plenty of sanctions. There was no imminent or any other threat to the US. The Downing Street memos said the intelligence and facts were fixed around the policy. http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/ You can believe what you want to believe but we essentially privatized this war and outsourced all aid to Iraq through Halliburton and other contractors. The only jobs for highly qualified Iraqis were menial and paid them a pittance. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4712 Registered: 12-2001  |
We are in Iraq. What is the best outcome we can expect and how do we achieve it? Hint: Having our soldiers endure the current conditions for another ten years is not a realistic answer. | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3734 Registered: 5-2001 |
There is a Robert Greenwald movie due out shortly, "Iraq For Sale," which is about the unprecedented level of war profiteering taking place. This is NOT a partisan issue by any means, although the cash seems to flow mostly to recipients to the right of the political spectrum. Don't expect high production values from Greenwald's company, Brave New Films. They have neither the time nor the money for that, but they always provide fascinating content. Looks like "Iraq For Sale" will be a very interesting expose. http://iraqforsale.org/ | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5592 Registered: 5-2001 |
On the contrary, it demonstrates their effectiveness. Genocide against the Kurds was over, by the way -- hence the northern no-fly zone. On the other hand, Darfur is, and the Balkans were, an ongoing and current problem. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1466 Registered: 4-2006 |
Tom Reingold- Taking a premise that Saddam Hussein and his sons are assassinated by internal elements, given the smoldering resentment of the shi'a to being ruled, supressed, and murdered by the minority sunni, the similiar historical supression and collective murder of the kurds, can anyone establish that the loss of life in Iraq would be less if we had not invaded Iraq? Could the argument be made that without it the loss of life would be far greater? Hoops- You obviously have little grasp on the history or religious groups of Iraq if you believe George Bush created the circumstances that may lead to civil war. notehead- You understand what you want to understand and believe what you want to believe that squares with your politics. Hence it is you that can't be objective. As previously stated, I did not see the need to invade Iraq in the first instance, (but I am not privy to intelligence reports), and I voted for Al Gore. It is extremely amusing to me that I am cast as a Bush defender on MOL, which I think says more about you people than it does about me. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4713 Registered: 12-2001 |
Fiction. What would have happened inside of Iraq had we not invaded is irrelevant. It is our mess now. What is the best case outcome you see at this point in time? | ||
| 3ringale Citizen Username: Threeringale Post Number: 362 Registered: 1-2006 |
There are 37,000 US troops defending the 150 mile border of South Korea from North Korea. There are about 12,000 Border Patrol agents monitoring activity on the 2000 mile Mexico-US border. There are 130,000 US troops in Iraq caught between the rock of playing Meals-on-Wheels in desert camo, and the hard place of being caught in the cross-fire of a civil war midwifed by the current administration. You don't have to be an isolationist to be dissatisfied with all of this, but it helps. Cheers | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 15399 Registered: 1-2003 |
factvsfiction, which policy would have yielded more deaths is a very hypothetical question, now, isn't it? We can't even say how such a civil war would have broken out or even if it was to happen. Why don't I bomb the American neighborhoods which have the highest teen pregnancy rates? It might actually reduce suffering. And once the death toll comes in, can I use your defense that doing nothing would have been worse? | ||
| S.L.K. 2.0 Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1882 Registered: 10-2005 |
So kiddies any solutions yet or just more of the same old mindless bitching? I just got around to listening the "Meet the Press" podcast from 8/13 where losing meglomaniac Howie Dean was asked point blank in the mist of all his typical Anti-Bush ramblings and walk on water defender of the middle class in middle America what the DNC stance is on fighting terrorism. His response? To be tough and have stronger airport security... I kid you not. Surprise surprise....basically sums of the left's position. Their position is not to agree with GB on anything....great plan... Yup, that is the ticket....snicker -SLK | ||
| Twokitties Citizen Username: Twokitties Post Number: 498 Registered: 8-2004 |
I avoided asking this earlier SLK, but your call for "solutions" seems to suggest that the current policy is an abject failure. Why would anyone ask for a "solution" to a problem that doesn't exist? | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1468 Registered: 4-2006 |
tjohn- What is happening in Iraq is a revolution in the sense that for the first time a representative form of government is being attempted to be formed in an arab nation. Iraq is also not a one ethnic nor sectarian nation.It is bound to be messy and bloody. Simply put,what will happen needs to play out, but it is likely we are better being there than not. My sense is we can accomplish more in directing the outcome. Yes, it is a tremendous price to pay, even with the loss of one soldiers's life. But it may be worth it, and real substantive change is always risky. You never have any guarantees. It will succeed or it will fail. Tom Reingold- Come on Tom, the teen pregnancy analogy is a bit over the top. We need to temper our developed, cushy, and consumerist societal values against the enemy we face, whose values are from another planet or at least another century. My point was that you can't ascribe blame to Bush for the internal violence in Iraq given the pre-existing issues, and an argument could be made that the U.S. presence there has decreased what bloodshed would have otherwise occurred. Too many people here take parochial political points of view. Bush can be blamed for legitimate failings, but not everything under the sun. | ||
| S.L.K. 2.0 Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1884 Registered: 10-2005 |
hoopster/notey: In the words of the metalcore group Suicidal Tendencies (who?): "Just cause you don't understand what's going on ...don't mean it don't make no sense And just cause you don't like it,...don't mean it aint no good And let me tell you something Before you go taking a walk in my world, ...you better take a look at the real world Cause this aint no Mr. Rogers Neighborhood Can you say "feel like ••••?" Yea maybe sometimes I do feel like •••• I aint happy about it, but I'd rather feel like •••• ...than be full of ••••! And if I offended you, Oh I'm sorry But, maybe you needed to be offended But here's my apology and one more thing...F*** you!" I made sure I edited the venacular. Wouldn't want to get Dave's fruit of a looms in a knot now...and god forbid someone says sh*t....on MOL, how offensive.... Have a good day!  -SLK | ||
| Montagnard Citizen Username: Montagnard Post Number: 1983 Registered: 6-2003  |
The only sensible course of action at this point is to withdraw. As I've said many times before: The longer the U.S. waits, the more humiliating the defeat will be. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 15407 Registered: 1-2003 |
But it may be worth it, and real substantive change is always risky. Yeah, let's start a war and see what happens. Whee! |
