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Innisowen
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Username: Innisowen

Post Number: 2270
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 8:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Middle East neophytes are the monkeys in the current administration that are tossing their feces at the American public and at anyone in the Middle East (Israel included) that raises one hair of a head above a firing position.

Neophytes=this administration, which couldn't find its way out of a hot pizza, maybe hot falafel is a more appropriate expression.

And the outcome of the Israel-Hezbollah conflict is at best a stalemate, with the apparent beneficiaries being Iran and Syria.
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Southerner
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Username: Southerner

Post Number: 1457
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 8:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I love this. I sing, you dance.
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Gordon Agress
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Username: Odd

Post Number: 520
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 9:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From the New York Times:


Quote:

It seemed probable that when the army moved past the Litani River into the long-held separate realm of Hezbollah, the militia’s fighters would simply put their weapons into hiding and melt away into the civilian population.

The top Hezbollah field commander in the south, Sheik Nabil Qaouk, said as much.

“Just like in the past, Hezbollah had no visible military presence and there will not be any presence now,” Sheik Qaouk told reporters in the hard-hit port city of Tyre.

He praised the army’s deployment south of the Litani, but said Hezbollah would maintain its presence without publicly displaying its arms. He added that since there were still Israeli tanks in Lebanon, the guerrillas reserved the right to respond accordingly.




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Paul Surovell
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Username: Paulsurovell

Post Number: 721
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Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 12:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gordon,

I'll be happy to answer your question if you answer mine, which appeared first. And to make it easier for you, I'll repeat my question:

Does this constitute a threat of offensive military action and thus a violation of the cease-fire resolution?

Quote:

Yedioth Ahronoth 8-14-06

PM: We’ll continue to hunt Hizbullah down


Olmert tells Knesset ‘in every altercation with Hizbullah the IDF soldiers had the upper hand. Hizbullah leaders went into hiding and are lying. We will continue to hunt them down anytime, anywhere’


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3291134,00.html

To assist you further, here's the text of the cease-fire resolution:

Text of UN Resolution 1701

Quote:

The Security Council,

Recalling all its previous resolutions on Lebanon, in particular resolutions 425 (1978), 426 (1978), 520 (1982), 1559 (2004), 1655 (2006), 1680 (2006) and 1697 (2006), as well as the statements of its president on the situation in Lebanon, in particular the statements of 18 June, 2000, of 19 October, 2004, of 4 May 2005, of 23 January 2006 and of 30 July 2006;

Expressing its utmost concern at the continuing escalation of hostilities in Lebanon and in Israel since Hezbollah's attack on Israel on 12 July 2006, which has already caused hundreds of deaths and injuries on both sides, extensive damage to civilian infrastructure and hundreds of thousands of internally displaced persons;

Emphasising the need for an end of violence, but at the same time emphasising the need to address urgently the causes that have given rise to the current crisis, including by the unconditional release of the abducted Israeli soldiers;

Mindful of the sensitivity of the issue of prisoners and encouraging the efforts aimed at urgently settling the issue of the Lebanese prisoners detained in Israel;

Welcoming the efforts of the Lebanese prime minister and the commitment of the government of Lebanon, in its seven-point plan, to extend its authority over its territory, through its own legitimate armed forces, such that there will be no weapons without the consent of the government of Lebanon and no authority other than that of the government of Lebanon, welcoming also its commitment to a UN force that is supplemented and enhanced in numbers, equipment, mandate and scope of operation, and bearing in mind its request in this plan for an immediate withdrawal of the Israeli forces from southern Lebanon;

Determined to act for this withdrawal to happen at the earliest;

Taking due note of the proposals made in the seven-point plan regarding the Shebaa farms area;

Welcoming the unanimous decision by the government of Lebanon on 7 August 2006 to deploy a Lebanese armed force of 15,000 troops in south Lebanon as the Israeli army withdraws behind the Blue Line and to request the assistance of additional forces from Unifil as needed, to facilitate the entry of the Lebanese armed forces into the region and to restate its intention to strengthen the Lebanese armed forces with material as needed to enable it to perform its duties;

Aware of its responsibilities to help secure a permanent ceasefire and a long-term solution to the conflict;

Determining that the situation in Lebanon constitutes a threat to international peace and security;

1. Calls for a full cessation of hostilities based upon, in particular, the immediate cessation by Hezbollah of all attacks and the immediate cessation by Israel of all offensive military operations;

2. Upon full cessation of hostilities, calls upon the government of Lebanon and Unifil as authorised by paragraph 11 to deploy their forces together throughout the South and calls upon the government of Israel, as that deployment begins, to withdraw all of its forces from southern Lebanon in parallel;

3. Emphasises the importance of the extension of the control of the government of Lebanon over all Lebanese territory in accordance with the provisions of resolution 1559 (2004) and resolution 1680 (2006), and of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, for it to exercise its full sovereignty, so that there will be no weapons without the consent of the government of Lebanon and no authority other than that of the government of Lebanon;

4. Reiterates its strong support for full respect for the Blue Line;

5. Also reiterates its strong support, as recalled in all its previous relevant resolutions, for the territorial integrity, sovereignty and political independence of Lebanon within its internationally recognized borders, as contemplated by the Israeli-Lebanese General Armistice Agreement of 23 March 1949;

6. Calls on the international community to take immediate steps to extend its financial and humanitarian assistance to the Lebanese people, including through facilitating the safe return of displaced persons and, under the authority of the government of Lebanon, reopening airports and harbours, consistent with paragraphs 14 and 15, and calls on it also to consider further assistance in the future to contribute to the reconstruction and development of Lebanon;

7. Affirms that all parties are responsible for ensuring that no action is taken contrary to paragraph 1 that might adversely affect the search for a long-term solution, humanitarian access to civilian populations, including safe passage for humanitarian convoys, or the voluntary and safe return of displaced persons, and calls on all parties to comply with this responsibility and to cooperate with the Security Council;

8. Calls for Israel and Lebanon to support a permanent ceasefire and a long-term solution based on the following principles and elements:

Full respect for the Blue Line by both parties;

security arrangements to prevent the resumption of hostilities, including the establishment between the Blue Line and the Litani river of an area free of any armed personnel, assets and weapons other than those of the government of Lebanon and of UNIFIL as authorised in paragraph 11, deployed in this area;

Full implementation of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, and of resolutions 1559 (2004) and 1680 (2006), that require the disarmament of all armed groups in Lebanon, so that, pursuant to the Lebanese cabinet decision of July 27, 2006, there will be no weapons or authority in Lebanon other than that of the Lebanese state;

No foreign forces in Lebanon without the consent of its government;

No sales or supply of arms and related materiel to Lebanon except as authorized by its government;

Provision to the United Nations of all remaining maps of land mines in Lebanon in Israel's possession;

9. Invites the secretary general to support efforts to secure as soon as possible agreements in principle from the government of Lebanon and the government of Israel to the principles and elements for a long-term solution as set forth in paragraph 8, and expresses its intention to be actively involved;

10. Requests the secretary general to develop, in liaison with relevant international actors and the concerned parties, proposals to implement the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, and resolutions 1559 (2004) and 1680 (2006), including disarmament, and for delineation of the international borders of Lebanon, especially in those areas where the border is disputed or uncertain, including by dealing with the Shebaa farms area, and to present to the Security Council those proposals within 30 days;

11. Decides, in order to supplement and enhance the force in numbers, equipment, mandate and scope of operations, to authorize an increase in the force strength of Unifil to a maximum of 15,000 troops, and that the force shall, in addition to carrying out its mandate under resolutions 425 and 426 (1978):

a. Monitor the cessation of hostilities;

b. Accompany and support the Lebanese armed forces as they deploy throughout the South, including along the Blue Line, as Israel withdraws its armed forces from Lebanon as provided in paragraph 2;

c. Coordinate its activities related to paragraph 11 (b) with the government of Lebanon and the government of Israel;

d. Extend its assistance to help ensure humanitarian access to civilian populations and the voluntary and safe return of displaced persons;

e. Assist the Lebanese armed forces in taking steps towards the establishment of the area as referred to in paragraph 8;

f. Assist the government of Lebanon, at its request, to implement paragraph 14;

12. Acting in support of a request from the government of Lebanon to deploy an international force to assist it to exercise its authority throughout the territory, authorizes Unifil to take all necessary action in areas of deployment of its forces and as it deems within its capabilities, to ensure that its area of operations is not utilised for hostile activities of any kind, to resist attempts by forceful means to prevent it from discharging its duties under the mandate of the Security Council, and to protect United Nations personnel, facilities, installations and equipment, ensure the security and freedom of movement of United Nations personnel, humanitarian workers, and, without prejudice to the responsibility of the government of Lebanon, to protect civilians under imminent threat of physical violence;

13. Requests the secretary general urgently to put in place measures to ensure Unifil is able to carry out the functions envisaged in this resolution, urges member states to consider making appropriate contributions to Unifil and to respond positively to requests for assistance from the Force, and expresses its strong appreciation to those who have contributed to Unifil in the past;

14. Calls upon the government of Lebanon to secure its borders and other entry points to prevent the entry in Lebanon without its consent of arms or related materiel and requests Unifil as authorised in paragraph 11 to assist the government of Lebanon at its request;

15. Decides further that all states shall take the necessary measures to prevent, by their nationals or from their territories or using their flag vessels or aircraft;

a. the sale or supply to any entity or individual in Lebanon of arms and related materiel of all types, including weapons and ammunition, military vehicles and equipment, paramilitary equipment, and spare parts for the aforementioned, whether or not originating in their territories, and;

b. the provision to any entity or individual in Lebanon of any technical training or assistance related to the provision, manufacture, maintenance or use of the items listed in subparagraph (a) above, except that these prohibitions shall not apply to arms, related material, training or assistance authorised by the government of Lebanon or by Unifil as authorised in paragraph 11;

16. Decides to extend the mandate of Unifil until 31 August 2007, and expresses its intention to consider in a later resolution further enhancements to the mandate and other steps to contribute to the implementation of a permanent ceasefire and a long-term solution;

17. Requests the secretary general to report to the Council within one week on the implementation of this resolution and subsequently on a regular basis;

18. Stresses the importance of, and the need to achieve, a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East, based on all its relevant resolutions including its resolutions 242 (1967) of 22 November 1967 and 338 (1973) of 22 October 1973;

19. Decides to remain actively seized of the matter


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4785963.stm


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Gordon Agress
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Username: Odd

Post Number: 521
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 7:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Quote:

Does this constitute a threat of offensive military action and thus a violation of the cease-fire resolution?




No, it does not, or at least no more so that Nasrallah's stated goal of destroying Israel entirely. It is a strange statement, but it isn't more important than the ongoing withdrawal of the IDF from Lebanon.

Your turn:
Should Hezbollah disarm?
If it does not, what should Lebanon and the "international community" do?
If they don't act appropriately, what should Israel do?

Since Hezbollah is declaring that they'll read "disarm" to mean "hide the guns", it's fair to add: what should be done to verify its compliance with the disarmament requirement?

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Spinal Tap
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Username: Spinaltap11

Post Number: 164
Registered: 5-2006


Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 7:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

(Portions of this post are from another thread that ended)

A cease-fire resolution with a terrorist organization that to my knowledge hasn't signed or agreed to anything. What a farce.

If cease fires, treaties, negotiations, resolutions, peace plans, road maps to peace, etc, etc, etc, had any actual bearing on peace, the Middle Ease would be the most peaceful place on Earth. When faced with an implacable foe, the only way to achieve peace is to wipe them out. The only thing that was accomplished was to guarantee that there will be yet another war between Israel and Hezbollah, with more civilians than would otherwise have been necessary, suffering and being killed. This will of course happen after Hezbollah has a chance to re-arm, re-fit, replenish its ranks, and dig in again.

It must be nice to live in the parallel universe where UN bureaucrats waving around pieces of paper achieve “peace”. Oh well - I’m sure the “peacekeepers” from the Republic of Bulimia, or wherever they come from (no one has come forward yet), led by an 11 star general, will do a great job, and continue to justify the existence of the Useless, I mean United Nations, and their diplomats’ Upper East Side Townhouses.

The fact that the Bush administration is complicit in this idiocy illustrates how far they have fallen from the heady days of the 2004 State of the Union when the president declared:

“As long as the Middle East remains a place of tyranny and despair and anger, it will continue to produce men and movements that threaten the safety of America and our friends. So America is pursuing a forward strategy of freedom in the greater Middle East. We will challenge the enemies of reform, confront the allies of terror, and expect a higher standard from our friend.”

Maybe the Realists will win the day after all.
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Spinal Tap
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Username: Spinaltap11

Post Number: 165
Registered: 5-2006


Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 7:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think Iran or Syria signed either. Here is a link to Hezbolla's ideological forefather:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni
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Spinal Tap
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Username: Spinaltap11

Post Number: 166
Registered: 5-2006


Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 7:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)



"My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time."
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Bob K
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Username: Bobk

Post Number: 12417
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 8:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Guess al-Husyani beat the Stern Gang (aka Lehi) to Germany to make an alliance. :-)

The following is also from Wilkepedia:

Contact with Nazi authorities

In 1940 and 1941, Lehi proposed intervening in the Second World War on the side of Nazi Germany to attain their help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine and to offer their assistance in "evacuating" the Jews of Europe arguing that "common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO (Lehi)." Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig and delivered a letter from Lehi offering to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state". Von Hentig forwarded the letter to the German embassy in Ankara, but there is no record of any official response. Lehi tried to establish contact with the Germans again in December 1941, also apparently without success.


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sbenois
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Username: Sbenois

Post Number: 15570
Registered: 10-2001


Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 8:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Quote:

Guess al-Husyani beat the Stern Gang (aka Lehi) to Germany to make an alliance. :-)

The following is also from Wilkepedia:

Contact with Nazi authorities

In 1940 and 1941, Lehi proposed intervening in the Second World War on the side of Nazi Germany to attain their help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine and to offer their assistance in "evacuating" the Jews of Europe arguing that "common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO (Lehi)." Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig and delivered a letter from Lehi offering to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state". Von Hentig forwarded the letter to the German embassy in Ankara, but there is no record of any official response. Lehi tried to establish contact with the Germans again in December 1941, also apparently without success.





Bobk's fixation on The Stern Gang continues with his 1,000th post on the subject
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Rastro
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Username: Rastro


Post Number: 3751
Registered: 5-2004


Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 10:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But... but... but... He "support[s] Israel strongly, warts and all."

Constantly bringing up the Stern Gang is just his way of keeping things in context and making sure we don't forget those warts. Really. You know, they offset all actions by terrorists, past and present.

I'm sure he also knows that Israel does no hand-wringing about this, as the folks of Fredonia do about their complicity in the infamous Tea Kettle incident with Mussolini.
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Bob K
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Username: Bobk

Post Number: 12420
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Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 10:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry guys, but that one was just to wierd not to post.

However, since there are something like 100,000,000 million Muslims in the Middle East and less than 10,000,000 Israelis, sooner or later they are going to have to negotiate some sort of settlement or face eventual disaster.

I don't think they can do that until Israel takes a more realistic look at their history.

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Spinal Tap
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Username: Spinaltap11

Post Number: 167
Registered: 5-2006


Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 12:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He was definitely crazy along with many other extremists but hardly representative of anything remotely resembling Jewish mainstream sentiment. In fact, when Israel was founded, the first Israeli government ordered all these organizations to lay down their arms. Many wanted to continue to fight for the remaining 80 percent of the Palestinian Mandate that had been promised to them. When they refused, they were hunted down by Israeli forces and destroyed. They were not embraced, financed, armed, and convinced to turn their children into suicide bombers.

And considering that Arabs and Persians have been getting their butts kicked by Western Civilization for about the past 2,500 years going back to Battle of Marathon, I’d say that Israel will probably be able to hold out a while longer. There is going to be a disaster alright but it’s not going to be the Jews on the receiving end.
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Blue Heeler
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Username: Blueheeler

Post Number: 78
Registered: 10-2005


Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 12:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amusing blog; this entry is a bitter parody...and chillingly apropos at the same time: http://thepeoplescube.com/red/viewtopic.php?t=797

warsaw-ghetto
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Gordon Agress
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Username: Odd

Post Number: 522
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 12:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Quote:

sooner or later they are going to have to negotiate some sort of settlement or face eventual disaster.




Hezbollah and the Lebanese "government" are advertising their violation of their disarmament commitments under the ceasefire -- less than a week after making them -- and you think Israel's understanding of its history is the most noteworthy threat to Middle East peace?

Wow.

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Bob K
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Post Number: 12422
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Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 1:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

At this moment, no. Although the whole war was surreal. Israel only began to do what it had to do, put a significan force into Southern Lebanon and go after Hezbollah town by town and bunker by bunker, days before the cease fire.

Israel has to be able to negotiate from a position of strength, which certainly wasn't the case this time.

Spinal Tap, think Saladin and the Moorish conquest of Spain. Don't let your hatred blind your sense. The Middle East has changed. Israel wouldn't be able to force the Muslims into a manuever war on their terms. Hezbollah is now setting the battlefield and in a few years, tops, they will have nuclear weapons provided by Iran and North Korea.

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Paul Surovell
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Post Number: 722
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Posted on Friday, August 18, 2006 - 1:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gordon,

Before I answer your questions, I'd like to point out that PM Olmert's declaration that Israel will "hunt down" the Hezbollah leadership provides Hezbollah with a credible rationale as to why it cannot disarm -- because Israel directly threatens its leadership. You call Olmert's statement "strange." I call it stupid.

Regarding your questions of me (I've numbered them for clarity):

Quote:

(1) Should Hezbollah disarm?


Ans. Yes and to facilitate this, the Israeli Government should retract Olmert's statement.

Quote:

(2) If it does not, what should Lebanon and the "international community" do?


Ans. I'll reply by quoting Condoleeza Rice in her 8-16-06 interview in USA Today. I've boldfaced the passages that are most important: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-08-16-rice-transcript_x.htm

Quote:

QUESTION: So would the U.N. forces be expected to — allowed to and expected to confront — if there are Hezbollah forces, to confront them and to forcibly disarm Hezbollah forces that were in the south?

SECRETARY RICE: Susan, I don't think there is an expectation that this force is going to physically disarm Hezbollah. I think it's a little bit of a misreading of how you disarm a militia. You have to have a plan, first of all, for the disarmament of a militia, and then the hope is that some people lay down their arms voluntarily. You have *kentulminaries* where heavy arms are, but the disarmament of militias is essentially a political agreement and the Lebanese Government has said that it intends to live up to its obligations under Resolution 1559 and something called the Taif Accord, which was signed in 1989 in Saudi Arabia — it shows you how long we've been at this — that they will not have any groups in Lebanon carrying arms that are not a part of the central security forces of Lebanon.

So the political agreement is in place. Now the plan for disarmament is to be worked out. Kofi Annan is to present a plan. This will have to be worked with the Lebanese Government, it'll have to be worked with the Lebanese armed forces, and I'm sure to the degree that support is needed for that, the international forces can help. But even if you look at how we disarmed — how the Afghans disarmed militias in Afghanistan, it was not by the quite substantial coalition forces going up and physically disarming Afghan militias. So I think there's a little bit of a — when people say, "Are they going to disarm Hezbollah," that's not actually how militias disarm. They're disarmed by a plan under political agreement and then support can be given to the Lebanese in doing that.

QUESTION: So disarming Hezbollah involves a political agreement that the Lebanese Government has got to be responsible for?

SECRETARY RICE: And that the Lebanese Government has already undertaken an obligation to do that. Now we will see whether Hezbollah, which is — after all, has ministers in the Lebanese Government, is prepared to live up to those international obligations. We will see who is for peace and who isn't. We will see whether Hezbollah has taken the lesson that everyone in the international community understands, that you can't have one foot in politics and one foot in terror.

But this time, we'll make it very clear; if there is resistance to the obligations that the Lebanese Government has undertaken, then there will be a problem and Hezbollah will have to face the international community and Hezbollah supporters will have the face the international community.

QUESTION: Meaning Iran and Syria?

SECRETARY RICE: Meaning Iran and Syria.

QUESTION: But if — say Hezbollah decides it does not choose to live up to this agreement and does not choose to disarm. What happens then?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, I don't want to speculate because I think so much depends on conditions, but let's look at it this way. First of all, the Hezbollah, I think, was hurt by the military action that has been taken against it. It does not have the positions in the south that it once had. It doesn't have the positions along the border. It's not going to be on the border with Israel. Those will be international forces and the Lebanese armed forces.

It will — can it be kept from being resupplied? Yes; if the international embargo is carried out and carried out with vigor, they can be prevented from rearming. So already, this organization will be weaker because its dominant position in the south, which allowed it to carry out this attack, a position that they've built up essentially since the Israelis withdrew in 2000, they have been dislodged from that. So part of the answer to how to deal with Hezbollah is not just the matter of arms, although it's important, but also keeping them out of those strategic positions in the south.

And then I think there will be a lot of pressure on Hezbollah to make a choice and if, in fact, they make the wrong choice, one would have to assume that there will be others who are willing to call Hezbollah what we are willing to call it, which is a terrorist organization. Europe does not, for instance, currently list Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. I would think that a refusal to live up to obligations that were undertaken by the Lebanese Government, clearly putting Hezbollah outside of the Lebanese Government consensus might trigger, for instance, something like that.



Quote:

(3) If they don't act appropriately, what should Israel do?


Ans. Israel should act as a member of the international community along the lines described by Secretary Rice above.

Quote:

(4) Since Hezbollah is declaring that they'll read "disarm" to mean "hide the guns", it's fair to add: what should be done to verify its compliance with the disarmament requirement?


Ans. The Lebanese Government will determine the mechanism of verification. If the mechanism is unacceptable to the international community, it should respond as described above.

The issue of verification could become a moot issue, if the Lebanese Government decides that the integration of Hezbollah's militia into the Lebanese Army will be the means by which the militia will be disarmed and disbanded. The Italian Foreign and Defense Ministers suggested this scenario yesterday:

Quote:

Foreign Minister Massimo D'Alema has also underscored that Italian soldiers will not be called on to disarm Hezbollah .

In an interview with L'Espresso weekly, he pointed out that the conflict between Hezbollah and Israel - which he described as "a disastrous political mistake" - meant that "large swathes" of the Lebanese population now support Hezbollah .

In such circumstances, the only way to disarm the movement would be by bringing it under government control and incorporating it into the existing Lebanese army, said the minister .

Defence Minister Arturo Parisi made similar remarks on Thursday while discussing the nature of the UN mission .


http://ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2006-08-17_1176851.html



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Southerner
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Username: Southerner

Post Number: 1468
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Posted on Friday, August 18, 2006 - 7:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Paul,
I think you need to make your posts longer.
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Gordon Agress
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Username: Odd

Post Number: 523
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Friday, August 18, 2006 - 8:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's a lot of words, Paul, so I'll summarize. If Hezbollah doesn't disarm, the Europeans might put them on a list of terrorist groups, and I suppose that Israel, "acting as a member of the international community" will also put them on a list. You think the question of verification (and disarmament) can be mooted by making Hezbollah nominally part of the Lebanese Army, though that just creates the new question of whether they would actually be controlled the Lebanese government.

And that's all.

Arguing with you about that response is pointless, but I'm glad people who haven't yet made up their minds can see where you stand.

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Paul Surovell
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Post Number: 723
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Posted on Friday, August 18, 2006 - 9:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

... and where Condoleeza Rice stands
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Rastro
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Username: Rastro


Post Number: 3761
Registered: 5-2004


Posted on Friday, August 18, 2006 - 10:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now you agree with Condoleeza Rice? Do you agree that we should simply hope that Hezzbollah puts down their weapons after we put together a plan?

"I think it's a little bit of a misreading about how you disarm a militia. You have to have a plan, first of all, for the disarmament of the militia, and then the hope is that some people lay down their arms voluntarily." [emphasis mine]

Also, how would you react to this blurb, had it been issued?


Quote:

Prez: We’ll continue to hunt al Queda down

President Kerry tells Congress ‘in every altercation with al Queda US soldiers had the upper hand. Al Queda leaders went into hiding and are lying. We will continue to hunt them down anytime, anywhere’




Would you have a problem with it?
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Gordon Agress
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Username: Odd

Post Number: 524
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Posted on Friday, August 18, 2006 - 1:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Emphasizing your momentary and limited agreement on tactics with a real hawk is farsighted and clever, Paul, but I expect you and Condi are agreeing for very different reasons. Three weeks ago she was running interference for the IDF while you were calling for an unconditional cease-fire. I doubt she has suddenly adopted your strategic view. Her reasons for this cease-fire are, I think, tactical -- her ally has blundered at her preferred solution, and she making the best she can of what remains. There's certainly nothing in her statement that suggests she thinks this thing will solve the problem of Hezbollah.

It's pretty clear the Administration wouldn't chosen this response to Hezbollah's violation of the resolution unless forced to by circumstances. They almost certainly think Hezbollah's weapons will have to be addressed in the future, and probably not by recognizing them as a terrorist organization, or re-flagging them as nominal members of the Lebanese Army.

Unless you share that view, or something like it, you haven't answered the question. What is the right response to Hezbollah's armament in violation of the UN resolution?

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Bob K
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Post Number: 12427
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Posted on Friday, August 18, 2006 - 2:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Incorporating Hezbollah into the Lebanese Army would be the same sort of mistake that the United States made in Iraq when we incorporated Shi'a and Kurd militias into that country's army. Their first loyalty will always be to Hezbollah and Shiek Nazaralah. Good fighters though, like the Kurds.

I have always considered Peters somewhat of a nut. However, his view on the Israel/Hezbollah war might explain the quick cease fire.


http://www.nypost.com/seven/08172006/postopinion/opedcolumnists/hezbollah_3__isr ael_0_opedcolumnists_ralph_peters.htm

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tulip
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Username: Braveheart

Post Number: 3903
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Friday, August 18, 2006 - 7:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hezbollah is giving many Lebanese families $12,000 each to rebuild. How would the US counter that for hearts and minds? Can we?
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Southerner
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Username: Southerner

Post Number: 1471
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Posted on Friday, August 18, 2006 - 9:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I say we give each Lebansese family a month supply of crack. Talk about winning minds!
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Paul Surovell
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Username: Paulsurovell

Post Number: 724
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Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2006 - 12:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gordon:

You're right that Condoleeza Rice changed her position when she embraced the cease-fire resolution. I think the reason she did so was that she realized that if the fighting continued, the damage to the US and Israel would worsen from disastrous to castastrophic.

You asked me four questions and I answered each one. In one answer, I cited Condoleeza Rice's detailed comments which reflect my view. Your suggestion that I can't answer your question by citing my agreement with Rice because I don't share what you speculate to be her long-term view is a total non-sequiteur.

Rastro:

Re-read the quote. Rice is saying she hopes "some" people will voluntarily turn in their weapons. She's not saying that the entire process is based on "hope."

Regarding your John Kerry hypothetical -- if what you mean is that we should sustain an aggressive police/intelligence program to identify, interdict, arrest and prosecute anyone organizing or planning acts of terrorism -- yes, I agree.

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Rastro
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Username: Rastro


Post Number: 3771
Registered: 5-2004


Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2006 - 7:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Paul, she is saying the entire process is based on a plan, then the hope is that some people will ay down their arms. There is nothing about disarming anyone, other than apparently asking people nicely to put down teir weapons.

Regarding the Kerry hypothetical, it is the ezact same quote as you attributed to Olmert. I don't mean anything different than what he meant, and you should know that.

You don't like it when others twist your words. I would expect the same courtesy.
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Debby
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Username: Debby

Post Number: 2388
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Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2006 - 8:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

blueheeler - thank you for that!
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Paul Surovell
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Username: Paulsurovell

Post Number: 725
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Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2006 - 12:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rastro,

I'm aware that the quote for Kerry was identical to Olmert's, except that you inserted Al Qaeda for the Hezbollah leadership. I didn't respond with a "yes" or "no" because I find the quote as you adapted to Kerry to be too simplistic to answer "yes" or "no" so I answered with a greater degree of specificity.

I don't think that constitutes twisting your words.



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Gordon Agress
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Username: Odd

Post Number: 525
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Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2006 - 12:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Paul writes:


Quote:

I think the reason she [changed her position] was that she realized that if the fighting continued, the damage to the US and Israel would worsen from disastrous to castastrophic.




I could explain how silly this is, but since I've already done so and Paul is still determined to say it, I guess there's no stopping him.

We can't even figure out what Paul thinks, never mind discuss with him whether it's right or wrong.

Coming soon: peacekeeping failure? It's Bush's fault!

[edited]
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Rastro
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Username: Rastro


Post Number: 3773
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Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2006 - 4:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why is it too simplistic to answer yes or no for Kerry, but not too simplistic to essentially condemn from Olmert? Had Kerry been President, and we were fighting al-Queda in Afghanistan, and Kerry uttered those words, would you agree with the sentiment? Why is the fighting of al-Queda in Afghanistan (with the implicit support ofthe Afghani government, but not necessarily the support of Afghanis) different from Israel's fighting with Hezbollah in Lebanon?
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Paul Surovell
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Username: Paulsurovell

Post Number: 726
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Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2006 - 5:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Because Israel and Hezbollah approved a cease-fire agreement.


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Paul Surovell
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Post Number: 727
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Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2006 - 5:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gordon,

If you want to remain in denial and argue that the war in Lebanon was not a disaster for Israel and the US, that's your right.

As far as whether a future debacle in the Middle East may be the fault of our President, all we can do is hope that he has learned from his mistakes. Better still, we should encourage him to learn from his mistakes.



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Rastro
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Username: Rastro


Post Number: 3775
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Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2006 - 6:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Though I haven't read the cease fire agreement, I assume it for these specific hostilities. Are you saying that Israel should not continue to track down terrorists?

Nevermind. I know what your answer will be, and I know that I will not agree with it. So be it.
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Paul Surovell
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Username: Paulsurovell

Post Number: 728
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Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2006 - 7:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rastro,

I posted the cease-fire agreement earlier on this thread.

The agreement calls for Hezbollah to immediately stop all attacks on Israel and for Israel to stop all offensive military operations against Hezbollah.

In my view, the only way Israel can "hunt down" the Hezbollah leadership is by conducting offensive military operations, which are precluded by the agreement.

Israel reiterated Olmert's threat in today's NY Times:

Quote:

Despite a cease-fire agreement, Israel intends to do its best to keep Iran and Syria from rearming Hezbollah and to kill the militia’s leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, said a senior Israeli commander.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/20/world/middleeast/20mideast.html

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Gordon Agress
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Username: Odd

Post Number: 527
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Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 8:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Paul writes:


Quote:

If you want to remain in denial and argue that the war in Lebanon was not a disaster for Israel and the US, that's your right.




Kids, here's a Propaganda Pointer: If you get stuck in an argument you can't win, pick a new argument.

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Paul Surovell
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Username: Paulsurovell

Post Number: 729
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Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 12:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gordon:

You wrote:


Quote:

Paul writes:


Quote:

I think the reason she [changed her position] was that she realized that if the fighting continued, the damage to the US and Israel would worsen from disastrous to castastrophic.


I could explain how silly this is, but since I've already done so and Paul is still determined to say it, I guess there's no stopping him.

We can't even figure out what Paul thinks, never mind discuss with him whether it's right or wrong.


And I responded:

Quote:

If you want to remain in denial and argue that the war in Lebanon was not a disaster for Israel and the US, that's your right.


Then you said:

Quote:

Paul writes:


Quote:

If you want to remain in denial and argue that the war in Lebanon was not a disaster for Israel and the US, that's your right.


Kids, here's a Propaganda Pointer: If you get stuck in an argument you can't win, pick a new argument
I didn't change the argument at all. I said that Rice changed her position because the war was a disaster and you said that was silly, without explaining why. Then I said if you want to remain in denial and argue that the war was not a disaster, that's your right.

No change in argument from my end. Just another misrepresentation on your part.

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Factvsfiction
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Username: Factvsfiction

Post Number: 1458
Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 8:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And the neophytism continues.....

.

Summary: For Israel - Lebanon allows correction and improvement of millitary tactics, strategies, will cause increased millitary expenditures and better training of reserves. Bad news for Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran. Israel will be well prepared to fight the wider war that is certainly coming.

For sunni arab states - Wakeup call and motivation to seek peace options and counter the growing threat of Iranian Persian influence on shi'a and sunni muslims in the region. Saudi money to be liberally applied. Arab leaders not happy to be called " half-men" by Assad Jr., whose head remains on the chopping block.

Arab street- Never changed anything since 1967, will not change anything now.

tbc.....
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Gordon Agress
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Username: Odd

Post Number: 528
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 9:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm stuck in an Escher loop!

If I replied the "discussion" would go like this:

G: [Explanation #1]
P: [Ignores explanation #1]
G: You ignored the explanation.
P: There is no explanation.
G: [Quotes explanation #1]
P: That's not an explanation.
G: [Explanation #2, of why #1 is an explanation.]
P: That's not an explanation of why #1 is an explanation.
G: [Explanation #3, of why #2 explains why #1 is an explanation.]
P: That's not an explanation of why #2 explains that #1 is an explanation.

Strawberry: Boring

sbenois: what the hell are you guys talking about?

art: SEND MANY, MANY PEACEKEEPERS

Kathleen: There is a specter haunting the Middle East . . .

GOP Man: Someone please tell me who I'm supposed to agree with.

Wendy: The explanation is so obvious that only anti-semitism explains missing it. Or is it obviously not an explanation?

joel dranove: Kill them both, let God sort it out.

sbenois: Actually, please scratch my prior comment. I'm too cool to have read this thread.


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sbenois
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Username: Sbenois

Post Number: 15584
Registered: 10-2001


Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 9:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What the hell are you guys talking about?

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