| Author | Message | ||
     Michael Paris Citizen Username: Publius Post Number: 43 Registered: 3-2005 |
THE SOUTH ORANGE-MAPLEWOOD COMMITTEE TO STOP THE WAR invites you to participate in a major anti-war demonstration: WHEN: Saturday, September 16th, from 12 Noon to 4 PM WHERE: Town Green (Near the Train Station), Summit, New Jersey WHAT: A Reading of the Names WHY: To bear witness to the human costs of the war, to honor the dead, and to remind citizens that U.S. Congressman Mike Ferguson (R-7th District) supported and still supports the Bush Administration's immoral and disasterous war in Iraq. We will gather at the Maplewood Train Station before the event, and then proceed by train to Summit. Beginning at 12 Noon in Summit, veterans, family members of military personnel, and volunteers will read the names of every serviceperson killed in the war in Iraq, along with the names of some of the tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians who have been killed. The South Orange-Maplewood Committee to Stop the War has joined with Military Families Speak Out (www.mfso.org), as well as several other New Jersey anti-war groups, including Bluewave (Montclair), and the Montclair Campaign for Peace, to form the New Jersey Coalition to Bring the Troops Home Now. This coalition is the sponsor of this event. If you wish to volunteer to help, or for more information, email: info@bringtroopshomenj.org, or SOMAStopthewar@yahoo.com Michael Paris SOMA Stop the War | ||
| Strawberry Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 7748 Registered: 10-2001 |
sounds like a waste of time. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 936 Registered: 1-2006 |
The "names" of the US troops killed by Hezbollah, in Beirut in 1983, or of the Africans killed by Al Queda bombings of our embassies, or of the three thousand killed at the WTC, or at the Israeli pizzerias, discos, elementary schools? Which names, if not those? How about the million names of the dead from the Iran/Iraq war, or the hundreds of thousands killed by Saddam's troops in his war on the Kurds, or the twenty thousand killed by Syria's army at Hom, Syria in the early 80's? Why discriminate, if you are one world-istas. jd | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1870 Registered: 9-2004  |
Why discriminate? I agree. Let's add these civilians to the list.  WASHINGTON - A Pentagon probe into the death of Iraqi civilians last November in the Iraqi city of Haditha will show that U.S. Marines "killed innocent civilians in cold blood," a U.S. lawmaker said Wednesday. From the beginning, Iraqis in the town of Haditha said U.S. Marines deliberately killed 15 unarmed Iraqi civilians, including seven women and three children. One young Iraqi girl said the Marines killed six members of her family, including her parents. “The Americans came into the room where my father was praying,” she said, “and shot him.” – By Jim Miklaszewski and Mike Viqueira NBC News | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5627 Registered: 5-2001 |
What does the Iraq war have to do with Hezbollah?
What does the Iraq war have to do with the embassy bombings?
What does the Iraq war have to do with 9/11?
Did we go to war in Iraq for Israel's sake?
Did we go to war in Iraq for Iran's sake?
Did we go to war in Iraq for the Kurd's sake?
Then why aren't we at war with Syria? If you hold that an anti-Ferguson rally is a waste of time, then logically you'd have to hold that a pro-Ferguson rally would also be a waste of time. Yet public demonstrations targeted to a specific local candidates held in those candidates's districts happen constantly in the US during election season, and are what democracy is all about. | ||
| Strawberry Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 7750 Registered: 10-2001 |
I see, so this is actually an "America sucks rally. libs. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1871 Registered: 9-2004 |
Good post Tom! | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5628 Registered: 5-2001 |
No it's a "Ferguson sucks rally." Does Ferguson = America? I had no idea you guys were so close! [amended to apologize to Michael Paris for my hyperbole, because I don't want to demean the event. It's a "The Iraq War Sucks Rally". In any event, America doesn't suck.] | ||
| Chris Prenovost Citizen Username: Chris_prenovost Post Number: 1054 Registered: 7-2003 |
OK, so you wanna have a demonstration. Who are you appealing to? Seems to me you're preaching to the converted. 'STOP THE WAR'. Great idea. Then what? Do we withdraw post haste, and leave Iraq to a civil war? Your cure would be worse than the disease. It's not enough to simply wave your mindless banners and say 'stop the war', you have to think this thing through. Your cure would be worse than the disease. Or you are no better than the draft-dodging, lying, incompetent cowards who got us into this war to begin with. | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 2297 Registered: 3-2004 |
At best, Iraq has a civil war right now, but our leaders choose to parse words and scour the thesaurus for harmless-sounding synonyms and substitutes for the "no-no" adjective "civil" in front of war. At best, our troops will be engaged in some sort of police action/riot/damage control operation as more Shiites, Sunnis, and Kurds kill each other. And our troops are not trained for that type of duty. We started the war. We should stop it and let the inhabitants of the country sort this among themselves. We certainly add NO value to that proposition. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5629 Registered: 5-2001 |
Any outdoor political rally is "preaching to the converted," with the hope of pulling in others who happen to walk by. It's more than just "stop the war," it's about getting people into congress who'll stand up to the administration and force the issue. "Withdrawing post haste" is a false choice. Some kind of plan and timetable needs to be drawn up, and the administration isn't doing it. They have no plan other than "let future administrations decide." What are the specifics of our plan going to be? Gee, I dunno. Let me drive down to Langley this weekend and knock on the door. After I peruse their files and interview the assets on the ground in Iraq, I'll get back to you. Of course that isn't going to happen. So it isn't really fair to expect us citizens here to have a full-blown plan in our hip pockets. Dems in Congress right now can't hold a hearing without GOP permission, and can't subpoena information. Coming up with (and worse, releasing) a plan now would be foolish because Dems don't have access to all the information. But at least they're committed to coming up with one and not mindlessly "staying the course." | ||
| Hank Zona Supporter Username: Hankzona Post Number: 6141 Registered: 3-2002  |
actually, Id be curious to see how this rally will play in Summit. Its not a town one would think of as populated by "the converted". It would be interesting to see how it plays with the generally unconverted. | ||
| Strawberry Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 7752 Registered: 10-2001 |
It'll play like all the SOMA rallies in Maplewood. 25 idiots for the most part being ignored. At least when Be About Peace does something you have some intelligence. SOMA, complete stupidity. | ||
| mlj Citizen Username: Mlj Post Number: 415 Registered: 6-2001 |
Tom, that was excellent. | ||
| ae35unit Citizen Username: Ae35unit Post Number: 195 Registered: 2-2006  |
Chris Prenovost says: "Do we withdraw post haste, and leave Iraq to a civil war?" Yes. Staying there isn't going to help. I thought the "Marshall Plan" idea using U.N. or other peace keeping troops was the best one, but any peacekeepers would just be substitute occupiers. When the proponents of neo anti-Americanism like Hannity or Strawberry ask if we would be better off with Saddam still in power, I say hell yes. | ||
| Strawberry Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 7755 Registered: 10-2001 |
"ask if we would be better off with Saddam still in power, I say hell yes." holy ignorance. | ||
| ae35unit Citizen Username: Ae35unit Post Number: 196 Registered: 2-2006 |
see what I mean....... idiot. Iraq is going so well, in the New York Post. Seriously, what did our actions in Iraq do, including removal of Saddam, that hasn't turned out to be a complete unbridled disaster? Ignorance? You can't make a case for anything Strawberry, you just cut (and paste) and run, at best. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5630 Registered: 5-2001 |
It's really an interesting question and deserves a little more than a knee-jerk response. First off, the question is would we be better off; that is to say, Americans and not Iraqis. Pre-war we had a cloudy picture of the threat posed by Iraq (I'm being generous here, but for argument's sake). But knowing what we know now, there were no WMDs or facilities for producing them, and no nuclear program remotely near producing anything. Iraq posed a regional counterweight to Iran. On the down side, he did support in a minor way suicide bombers in Israel; but again the question is are Americans better off. Pre-war the US had powerful, well-equipped volunteer standing army with high morale. This army was ready to jump into a situation such as Afghanistan quickly. Today we have a powerful, less-well-equipped standing army of recruits who have been forced into service, are tired and frustrated. In other words, low morale. They are overextended trying to do something in Iraq they are not trained to do, and should another threat arise elsewhere in the world we are not in a position to effectively address it. | ||
| S.L.K. 2.0 Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1896 Registered: 10-2005  |
uh oh, everyone run to the hills...another collective "liberal outrage" is on the horizon (what another one?).... as i have said in the past, this protest is just yet another free session of public pyschotherapy for those two cheap to pay for it... for those who are going, enjoy it, but realize you are only doing this for you and nobody else. -slk | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1502 Registered: 4-2006 |
And this protest will do what exactly? They have been having protests every Friday in Montclair for 3-4 months. Doubt Dick Cheney and the Pentagon is nervously monitoring them. | ||
| Michael Paris Citizen Username: Publius Post Number: 44 Registered: 3-2005 |
Strawberry, FvF, Chris P. SLK, Shame on You. Not one of you noticed that I misspelled the word "disastrous" in my initial post. You folks are slipping. As for the substance of your reactions, Tom has said all that needs to be said. Best regards, Michael Paris | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5633 Registered: 5-2001 |
They're for the voters. And they're working -- support for the war is slipping more every day. Just like support for the war's cheerleaders. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1510 Registered: 4-2006 |
Michael Paris- Spelling is a function of our more anal retentive posters.Luckily they do not work in post offices so thankfully we don't have more shooting incidents there. tom- The sad thing is your dems will run away from the issue if their poll numbers show they are perceived as " weak" on terrorism for the november elections. I find the people who protest in Montclair on fridays are nicer and far less polemic than our MOL posters here to communicate with. | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 2313 Registered: 3-2004 |
Oh, gosh. Fiction wants people to be "nice" and less polemic. Isn't that just ducky? Can't we all just try to get along...? | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 734 Registered: 2-2003 |
SLK, The "converted" now includes Republican Congressman Chris Shays ..... and it looks like there's another possible "death-bed" conversion coming in Connecticut. Read here: http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/news/local/state/hc-25151646.apds.m0988.bc-ct--i raqaug25,0,3303197.story?coll=hc-headlines-local-wire | ||
| pcs81632 Citizen Username: Pcs81632 Post Number: 124 Registered: 6-2002  |
Strawberry says that gathering to remember and read the names of those who died in Iraq 'sounds like a waste of time.' Wow, how much Kool Aid have you consumed? And do you REALLY think remembering those who have fallen, irregardless of the forum, is really a waste of time? | ||
| S.L.K. 2.0 Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1900 Registered: 10-2005 |
Paul- Who is talking about converting? i am talking about people using protest for their own selfish reasons. you have every right to protest and by golly go do it, but what does it accomplish other than to shove your personal opinions down other people's throat and to let off some steam. Protestor: Hi , look at me, my name is _______ and I am really really outraged about the Iraq war. SLK: Good for you...and your opinion holds what type of consequence? -SLK most of you lefties take cues from MoveOn.org but you never take hint with its name... | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 2314 Registered: 3-2004 |
????????? The code book, please, and quickly!!! We need to decipher the message above to see what, if anything, it means. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5640 Registered: 5-2001 |
I think we're supposed to "move on" from something. What that something is, or where it is we're supposed to go, is a mystery. As for the efficacy of protesting, ask all those people who protested for civil rights, or against the Vietnam war. Hell, ask these guys...  | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 2376 Registered: 8-2003  |
But what does not protesting accomplish? | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 735 Registered: 2-2003 |
Scrotis, This sounds like deja vu all over again. I thought you ultimately agreed that the MoveOn action last February protesting the wiretapping-without-warrants program was not intrusive. The September 16th event will be in a park in Summit. It will consist of volunteers reading the names of the fallen soldiers and some of the Iraqis killed in the war. Others will be on the periphery passing out flyers. No one from the public will be forced to watch the proceedings or take the flyers. The purpose of the event is to call attention to the damage that the war has caused and continues to cause to America and Iraq and to raise awareness of voters in the 7th Congressional District that the incumbent supports staying the course and the challenger supports adopting an exit strategy. Our group, South Mountain Peace Action, is encouraging people to support the challenger, Linda Stender, by the way. The district includes Springfield and Union (see www.BeAboutPeace.com). It's a political event aimed at the Congressional elections, focusing on the leading political and moral issue of our time. It's as American as apple pie. | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 2316 Registered: 3-2004 |
From SLK above: "Protestor: Hi , look at me, my name is _______ and I am really really outraged about the Iraq war. SLK: Good for you...and your opinion holds what type of consequence?" The right wing neocon world view would like everyone to believe that protest of the Iraq war is not only unpatriotic but also futile ("...and your opinion holds what type of consequence?...") It's insidious, isn't it? The right wing would like people to think that it's a waste of time to protest the administration's dumb 3 year initiative in Iraq because "everyone else supports it, blah, blah, blah..." What a neat way to attempt to pre-empt our constitutional rights to freedom of speech! It's the imperial presidency at work. Then, if that doesn't work, let's paint protesters of the Iraq war as accommodaters, pacifiers, soft on terrorism. It's the insidious presidency at work. Then, if that doesn't work, let's keep pounding on our sole message, that Iraq was connected to 9/11, and let's hope that a good number of citizens have been dulled enough by the constant re-telling of the lie, that it takes on a life of its own. That's the lying presidency at work. Those tactics worked on some of our citizens for a couple of years. Surveys tell us on a weekly basis that that set of tactics has run its course. It's about time. | ||
| Foj Citizen Username: Foger Post Number: 1729 Registered: 9-2004 |
"It'll play like all the SOMA rallies in Maplewood. 25 idiots for the most part being ignored. " Like the one Fred Profetta attended last year in front of the Town Hall? | ||
| Michael Paris Citizen Username: Publius Post Number: 45 Registered: 3-2005 |
Tom, you offer yet another brilliant post. Innisowen, music to our ears! Paul Surovell is right. The many groups supporting this event and the event itself are American as apple pie. We all share a deep, abiding commitment to American ideals and values, and we will speak and act accordingly. Best regards, Michael Paris | ||
| Strawberry Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 7761 Registered: 10-2001 |
That's right Foj. Fred made a jackass out of himself. | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 2319 Registered: 3-2004 |
Popular Mechanics-boy "speaks" again. Utters human-sounding grunt. | ||
| 3ringale Citizen Username: Threeringale Post Number: 365 Registered: 1-2006 |
This guy is arguably not a liberal: Cut and Run? You Bet. By Lt. Gen. William E. Odom May/June 2006 Why America must get out of Iraq now Withdraw immediately or stay the present course? That is the key question about the war in Iraq today. American public opinion is now decidedly against the war. From liberal New England, where citizens pass town-hall resolutions calling for withdrawal, to the conservative South and West, where more than half of “red state” citizens oppose the war, Americans want out. That sentiment is understandable. The prewar dream of a liberal Iraqi democracy friendly to the United States is no longer credible. No Iraqi leader with enough power and legitimacy to control the country will be pro-American. Still, U.S. President George W. Bush says the United States must stay the course. Why? Let’s consider his administration’s most popular arguments for not leaving Iraq. If we leave, there will be a civil war. In reality, a civil war in Iraq began just weeks after U.S. forces toppled Saddam. Any close observer could see that then; today, only the blind deny it. Even President Bush, who is normally impervious to uncomfortable facts, recently admitted that Iraq has peered into the abyss of civil war. He ought to look a little closer. Iraqis are fighting Iraqis. Insurgents have killed far more Iraqis than Americans. That’s civil war. Withdrawal will encourage the terrorists. True, but that is the price we are doomed to pay. Our continued occupation of Iraq also encourages the killers—precisely because our invasion made Iraq safe for them. Our occupation also left the surviving Baathists with one choice: Surrender, or ally with al Qaeda. They chose the latter. Staying the course will not change this fact. Pulling out will most likely result in Sunni groups’ turning against al Qaeda and its sympathizers, driving them out of Iraq entirely. Before U.S. forces stand down, Iraqi security forces must stand up. The problem in Iraq is not military competency; it is political consolidation. Iraq has a large officer corps with plenty of combat experience from the Iran-Iraq war. Moktada al-Sadr’s Shiite militia fights well today without U.S. advisors, as do Kurdish pesh merga units. The problem is loyalty. To whom can officers and troops afford to give their loyalty? The political camps in Iraq are still shifting. So every Iraqi soldier and officer today risks choosing the wrong side. As a result, most choose to retain as much latitude as possible to switch allegiances. All the U.S. military trainers in the world cannot remove that reality. But political consolidation will. It should by now be clear that political power can only be established via Iraqi guns and civil war, not through elections or U.S. colonialism by ventriloquism. Setting a withdrawal deadline will damage the morale of U.S. troops. Hiding behind the argument of troop morale shows no willingness to accept the responsibilities of command. The truth is, most wars would stop early if soldiers had the choice of whether or not to continue. This is certainly true in Iraq, where a withdrawal is likely to raise morale among U.S. forces. A recent Zogby poll suggests that most U.S. troops would welcome an early withdrawal deadline. But the strategic question of how to extract the United States from the Iraq disaster is not a matter to be decided by soldiers. Carl von Clausewitz spoke of two kinds of courage: first, bravery in the face of mortal danger; second, the willingness to accept personal responsibility for command decisions. The former is expected of the troops. The latter must be demanded of high-level commanders, including the president. Withdrawal would undermine U.S. credibility in the world. Were the United States a middling power, this case might hold some water. But for the world’s only superpower, it’s patently phony. A rapid reversal of our present course in Iraq would improve U.S. credibility around the world. The same argument was made against withdrawal from Vietnam. It was proved wrong then and it would be proved wrong today. Since Sept. 11, 2001, the world’s opinion of the United States has plummeted, with the largest short-term drop in American history. The United States now garners as much international esteem as Russia. Withdrawing and admitting our mistake would reverse this trend. Very few countries have that kind of corrective capacity. I served as a military attaché in the U.S. Embassy in Moscow during Richard Nixon’s Watergate crisis. When Nixon resigned, several Soviet officials who had previously expressed disdain for the United States told me they were astonished. One diplomat said, “Only your country is powerful enough to do this. It would destroy my country.” Two facts, however painful, must be recognized, or we will remain perilously confused in Iraq. First, invading Iraq was not in the interests of the United States. It was in the interests of Iran and al Qaeda. For Iran, it avenged a grudge against Saddam for his invasion of the country in 1980. For al Qaeda, it made it easier to kill Americans. Second, the war has paralyzed the United States in the world diplomatically and strategically. Although relations with Europe show signs of marginal improvement, the trans-Atlantic alliance still may not survive the war. Only with a rapid withdrawal from Iraq will Washington regain diplomatic and military mobility. Tied down like Gulliver in the sands of Mesopotamia, we simply cannot attract the diplomatic and military cooperation necessary to win the real battle against terror. Getting out of Iraq is the precondition for any improvement. In fact, getting out now may be our only chance to set things right in Iraq. For starters, if we withdraw, European politicians would be more likely to cooperate with us in a strategy for stabilizing the greater Middle East. Following a withdrawal, all the countries bordering Iraq would likely respond favorably to an offer to help stabilize the situation. The most important of these would be Iran. It dislikes al Qaeda as much as we do. It wants regional stability as much as we do. It wants to produce more oil and gas and sell it. If its leaders really want nuclear weapons, we cannot stop them. But we can engage them. None of these prospects is possible unless we stop moving deeper into the “big sandy” of Iraq. America must withdraw now. Lt. Gen. William E. Odom (Ret.) is senior fellow at the Hudson Institute and professor at Yale University. He was director of the National Security Agency from 1985 to 1988. http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/odom/odom.html | ||
| S.L.K. 2.0 Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1904 Registered: 10-2005 |
Inny- it is both unfortunate and shortsighted of you to breakdown my perception i have as a "leftwing/right wing" gig. I am all for the right of individuals to protest and will protect that right for everyone but i always found the practice to be silly way before Dubya got into office and even way before i even came to realize that i may not be as liberal as i was pretending to be. go ahead, protest, even in front of my house if you want. butlets be honest about what protesting is-a group of people unified by a common belief blowing off some steam, nothing more. it makes you wonder why "the right to protest" was created to begin with. maybe it was a way for the govt to keep the populace at bay-if you allow them to vent then most likely you will avoid a revolt. just a theory.... in my opinion, true protest involves a revolution,not necessarily right away and only after an injustice continues to remain,which makes me truly skeptical of all this "liberal outrage" lately. are you really pissed or not? 6 years of protest and? what did you get out of it besides some recogniton and free therapy (via venting)? again i am all for protesting but i am not vain enough to participate myself... | ||
| S.L.K. 2.0 Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1905 Registered: 10-2005 |
"again i am all for protesting but i am not vain enough to participate myself..." or "outraged" enough either....  -slk | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 2321 Registered: 3-2004 |
SLK: You have a reasonable enough explanation, and that's good. The fact that you are not outraged makes me believe that you don't know what's going on. |
