| Author | Message | ||
     Maple Man Citizen Username: Mapleman Post Number: 251 Registered: 6-2004  |
Zell isn't scary at all. he's pathetic. | ||
| Mustt_mustt Citizen Username: Mustt_mustt Post Number: 34 Registered: 8-2003 |
I'd rather have a beer with Ziz zag Miller than with Chris Matthews. | ||
| singlemalt Citizen Username: Singlemalt Post Number: 253 Registered: 12-2001 |
It's funny how the Democrats now call Zell Miller nuts (nice prediction by Sbenois at the beginning of this thread). Zell Miller is a moderate or what is called a "Conservative Democrat" (funny how the media never calls moderate Republicans "Liberal Republicans" but that’s for another thread on media bias). He’s just an angry moderate who made some very good and some not very good points during his speech last night (the whole occupier -v- liberator was a big stretch). It goes to show how far left some of the posters are here on MOL. It was Bill Clinton who used the same Zell Miller in 1992 as his keynote speaker during the DNC to win over moderates. http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040820-125030-8384r.htm I would bet everything that the posters bashing Zell last night and this morning would love the guy if he spoke with such passion and energy (he was really into getting his message out) on behalf of Kerry this year. You hate him because his message will be effective and play well where it needs to (which is not here on MOL) in swing states and with undecided voters. There is nothing more damning than hearing a Democrat bash his own party and their candidate they way Zell did last night. He spoke with anger, conviction and authority while never crossing the line into shouting and screaming ala Howard Dean. That would have killed his entire speech if that occured. Democrats have every right to be angry with Zell Miller and he is often referred to as "Benedict Arnold". However, their dislike is not so strong that they would not count his seat in the Senate as one for the Democrats in an institution that is split almost evenly. Zell on the other hand could have switched on many occasions to tilt the power in the Senate but he continued to stay loyal to the Democrats even if it was only in party affiliation and not his voting record. As I've said many times, unless Kerry can change the topic of discussion off Vietnam and the current war, his post war record and votes in the Senate will haunt him. He needs to talk about jobs, health care, court appointments, stem cell, etc. That is what will win votes for Kerry. It’s funny how the Republicans have avoided almost all domestic issues during the first three days of this convention. It’s not by accident. They know where they can pull the hearts of the electorate and the domestic issues will play better to Kerry so they avoid it. View last night through non-partisan eyes and it’s impossible to say what happened last night was anything other than horrible for the Kerry campaign. | ||
| Maple Man Citizen Username: Mapleman Post Number: 252 Registered: 6-2004 |
anyone who saw Zell after his speech, as I did on CNN, would know he's a kook. his speech was filled with untruths, and he was completely unprepared to defend it when he was interviewed afterward. I don't know what his grudge is about, but it's apparent he holds one against his party. his explanation is that the party has moved away from him, but that's transparently false. the Democratic party was far more liberal 15 or 20 years ago than it is today. the DLC runs the party at this moment, and it's philosophy is closer to Zell Miller's than the party of Dukakis or Mondale ever was. you can make fun of MOL's "libs" and say it was predictable that we'd say Miller is nuts. But the reason I'm saying it is because his speech was far over the top, and his interview afterwards was stunningly inept. I'm just calling 'em as I see 'em. | ||
| singlemalt Citizen Username: Singlemalt Post Number: 255 Registered: 12-2001 |
Most voters did not see the interview on CNN. How do you think his speech will play in Ohio, Florida, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Missouri and the other swing states. I think it was damning to Kerry. That's just calling 'em as I see 'em. | ||
| Face Real Name Username: Face Post Number: 348 Registered: 5-2001  |
The mainstream media can't stop trying to discredit Zell Miller for supporting President Bush this year, neither can the Bush –Haters who mistakenly call themselves Democrats. Take notice, Zell Miller didn't leave the Democratic Party, the Democratic Party left him. | ||
| Madden 11 Citizen Username: Madden_11 Post Number: 126 Registered: 12-2003 |
Zell Miller is unhinged. I had to remove the glass from my TV to squeegee all the spittle flecked on the inside. After the speech, he challenged Chris Matthews to a duel. A duel? And this guy is a Unites States senator. Frightening. I heard a little bit of him on Imus this morning...he said his problem with John Kerry is that he doesn't see the world in black and white, right and wrong, good and evil. Kerry shouldn't be President because he sees shades of gray. How on earth is that a bad thing? Cheney, though a liar, a weirdo, and a bad vice president, seemed to have his wits about him throughout his speech. Zell is just a nut. | ||
| jonnyt Citizen Username: Jonnyt Post Number: 80 Registered: 6-2001 |
From Andrew Sullivan's blog: Zell Miller's address will, I think, go down as a critical moment in this campaign, and maybe in the history of the Republican party. I kept thinking of the contrast with the Democrats' keynote speaker, Barack Obama, a post-racial, smiling, expansive young American, speaking about national unity and uplift. Then you see Zell Miller, his face rigid with anger, his eyes blazing with years of frustration as his Dixiecrat vision became slowly eclipsed among the Democrats. Remember who this man is: once a proud supporter of racial segregation, a man who lambasted LBJ for selling his soul to the negroes. His speech tonight was in this vein, a classic Dixiecrat speech, jammed with bald lies, straw men, and hateful rhetoric. | ||
| Maple Man Citizen Username: Mapleman Post Number: 253 Registered: 6-2004 |
Most voters didn't see the Miller's speech or the interviews afterward. So I don't presume to know how it will "play." If it's covered honestly by the press (i.e., they point out how full of distortions and untruths it was), it won't have any effect. If they just excerpt the harshest bites and play them over and over, then it will hurt Kerry a bit. It can't hurt tremendously though, because few voters are going to make the connection that Zell Miller is a Democrat (at least in name), and virtually everything he said has been airing in Bush-Cheney ads for months already, or has been repeated ad nauseum by Bush-Cheney surrogates on talk shows. It's becoming obvious that the Bush campaign knows there aren't many voters left to convince that they should vote for W. The only strategy they have left is to pound Kerry so hard and so often that the undecideds think he's as bad or worse than four more years of Bush and stay home on Election Day. | ||
| singlemalt Citizen Username: Singlemalt Post Number: 256 Registered: 12-2001 |
Maple, You're right on with the lack of attention the two conventions are getting from the mainstream media this year. That is probably a big reason why Kerry received such a little bump by historical standards after the DNC. I would not be surprised if Bush gets the same minor bump after this convention. As for your comments on Miller's "distortions and untruths", from what I heard the only part that seemed to fall into that category was the rant on occupation -v- liberation. I don't recall hearing Kerry or Edwards ever refer to the US troops as occupiers. Everything else Miller used as a basis of his criticism stemmed his own personal opinions, Kerry's comments and testimony when he returned home from Vietnam and his voting record in the Senate. The good news for Kerry is that if Miller was lying as you imply, he can easily point to his post-war testimony and voting record with specifics to set the record straight. That is John Kerry’s job and not the media. | ||
| Natb Citizen Username: Natb Post Number: 23 Registered: 8-2003 |
What exactly where the untruths in Miller's speech? At the end of the day most of the people who watch the RNC are republicans so they want him to appeal to their mass constituency and if they can sway some undecideds great. I have watched both conventions and although republicans haven't spoken about domestic issues (which I believe the president will speak about tonight)they have spoken about the issues like the war on terror that they feel are the biggest issues facing out country and the world today. The speeches have been focused, as has the whole message of the last 3 days. Kerry and his team have been unclear about what their message is. What are they going to do if they are in charge?? At the DNC I heard alot of great rhetoric from all their speakers but no clear definition of how they are going to affect change. It is great to say that you are going to help americans get jobs, but how? The president really has very little effect on jobs outside of trying to spur the economy. At least all of the speakers at the RNC are speaking about what the president has done, ie; tax cuts, liberating millions in Iraq/Afghanistan, education reform, etc... At the DNC I ended each night only knowing that Kerry was in Vietnam. Did he doing ANYTHING in the senate??? | ||
| Madden 11 Citizen Username: Madden_11 Post Number: 128 Registered: 12-2003 |
Zell didn't lie, exactly. He just didn't tell the whole truth: "America needs to know the facts," Miller said, but he failed to mention a few of them. Miller told the delegates that Kerry voted against production of the F-14 and F-15 fighters and the Apache helicopter, but he didn't say that Dick Cheney, as defense secretary, proposed eliminating both of them, too. Miller criticized Kerry for voting against the B-2 bomber, but he didn't say that President George H.W. Bush also proposed an end to the B-2 bomber program. In his 1992 State of the Union Address, Bush said he supported such cuts "with confidence" based on the recommendations of his Secretary of Defense: Dick Cheney. With the Cold War over, Bush said, failing to cut defense spending would be "insensible to progress." That's not how Miller described the cuts Wednesday night. He said Kerry's record on defense spending suggests that he wants to arm U.S. troops with "spitballs." Miller, who was introduced as the "conscience of the Democratic Party," didn't see fit to mention that he and Kerry both voted in 2002 for the largest military spending increase in two decades -- a defense bill that Republican Senator John Warner said would "help to ensure that our military has the tools it needs to defend our nation." http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/09/02/cheney_convention/index.html | ||
| singlemalt Citizen Username: Singlemalt Post Number: 258 Registered: 12-2001 |
Like I said - if the Salon article is accurate, it should be easy for Kerry to get the message out. | ||
| Madden 11 Citizen Username: Madden_11 Post Number: 129 Registered: 12-2003 |
Like I said - if the Salon article is accurate, it should be easy for Kerry to get the message out. It used to be the media's responsibility to not just report what was said, but to analyze it. Not analyze it politically, as in "Will this help them or hurt them?" But analyze it logically, as in "Is this really true?" The real problem is the lie makes the front page, the correction gets buried. That's the way it's always been. You'd think lying on a convention stage would be newsworthy in and of itself. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 2295 Registered: 8-2003 |
It used to be the media's job to tell us what happened. Then, you'd go to the op-ed page for opinionated analysis and value judgements (now known as "News Analysis" in the New York Times, and it appears on the front page, not the back where it belongs). | ||
| Brian O'Leary Citizen Username: Brianoleary Post Number: 2440 Registered: 3-2002 |
Apparently the lead time on party disengagement is about three years: Zell Miller's Introduction of Senator John Kerry Democratic Party of Georgia's Jefferson-Jackson Dinner March 1, 2001 My job tonight is an easy one: to present to you one of this nation's authentic heroes, one of this party's best-known and greatest leaders - and a good friend. He was once a lieutenant governor - but he didn't stay in that office 16 years, like someone else I know. It just took two years before the people of Massachusetts moved him into the United States Senate in 1984. In his 16 years in the Senate, John Kerry has fought against government waste and worked hard to bring some accountability to Washington. Early in his Senate career in 1986, John signed on to the Gramm-Rudman-Hollings Deficit Reduction Bill, and he fought for balanced budgets before it was considered politically correct for Democrats to do so. John has worked to strengthen our military, reform public education, boost the economy and protect the environment. Business Week magazine named him one of the top pro-technology legislators and made him a member of its "Digital Dozen." John was re-elected in 1990 and again in 1996 - when he defeated popular Republican Governor William Weld in the most closely watched Senate race in the country. John is a graduate of Yale University and was a gunboat officer in the Navy. He received a Silver Star, Bronze Star and three awards of the Purple Heart for combat duty in Vietnam. He later co-founded the Vietnam Veterans of America. He is married to Teresa Heinz and they have two daughters. As many of you know, I have great affection - some might say an obsession - for my two Labrador retrievers, Gus and Woodrow. It turns out John is a fellow dog lover, too, and he better be. His German Shepherd, Kim, is about to have puppies. And I just want him to know ... Gus and Woodrow had nothing to do with that. Ladies and Gentlemen, please welcome Senator John Kerry. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 2298 Registered: 8-2003 |
What's the big deal. Zell voted for Kerry, before he voted against him.  | ||
| singlemalt Citizen Username: Singlemalt Post Number: 260 Registered: 12-2001 |
Is that intro supposed to put into question everything Zell said last night? That was 6 months before 9/11. His entire speech centered on post 9/11 reaction to his own party. | ||
| Brian O'Leary Citizen Username: Brianoleary Post Number: 2442 Registered: 3-2002 |
Miller moved from "John has worked hard to strengthen our military" to now claim that Kerry has compiled a record on defense spending that would leave our trrops armed with spitballs. Yeah, I think that calls into question how much weight I give his about-face, especially given that the speech was about Kerry, not the Democrats. | ||
| noracoombs Citizen Username: Noracoombs Post Number: 41 Registered: 8-2002 |
That was awesome. The Kerry campaign should find footage of that (if it exists) and use it in an ad. Priceless. |
