| Author | Message | ||
     Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 4991 Registered: 10-1999  |
Hoops - Your last post suggests a combination of Heinlein's and Heineken's Laws - "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by alcohol."  | ||
| Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 2930 Registered: 9-2001  |
Copperfield: Read "What's Wrong with Kansas?" for a similar take on what you said. The book is a screed against the GOP--he says little about the failure of Dems, but what he does say is as follows: The book argues that the Dems walked away from the traditional working class and poor and tried to realign with the "new managerial class". Dems saw there was more money in reaching out to corporations and Hollywood than in their traditional base. The bet the Dems made was that by sticking to liberal social stances (pro-abortion rights, pro-gay rights) that are important to urban middle class voters, and adopting more Rep-sounding economic themes that resonate with the managerial class (welfare reform, etc.), they could peel the middle class managers and some of their corporate dollars away from the GOP. Well, this also opened up the field for the GOP to go after voters turned off by those very same social positions. With no one arguing for working class economic positions, the whole debate focused on social values, and the Dems lost the heartland on this. Economics became irrelevant--values became the key variable, and this has snowballed into an all-out culture war where economic interests mean even less every year. This is how the book explains working class and poor people voting overwhelmingly for a Bush economic agenda that benefits primarily wealthy people over poor people. His whole argument turns on his belief that the Bush agenda mainly benefits the rich while hurting the poor, and that false consciousness trumps rational economic thought. To the degree that you buy these premises, you buy his analysis. | ||
| buzzsaw Citizen Username: Buzzsaw Post Number: 3635 Registered: 5-2001  |
Is that Larry Hagman in the Heineken ad? | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3108 Registered: 3-2004 |
Copperfield: Your last statement is a bit weak on evidence, I suspect. If you look at voting and party affiliation trends over the past thirty years or so in New Jersey, the affluent areas (new money) have become predominantly Republican. Some wealthy communities and some blue-collar neighborhoods, were Democratic, and some still are. Obviously, some Republicans have switched party affiliation, or voting patterns, as we are now a "blue" state but were, up to Tom Kean (certainly not blue collar) and Christie Whitman (considerably more affluent than most of us) Republican. I think correlates of voting patterns now are less a matter of socio-economics and more a matter of positions on issues, such as abortion, the death penalty, property taxes. That's unfortunate because it tends to pigeonhole people. If you are a Democrat, you therefore support this, this and this. It doesn't help people identify or expand or modify their views to be "typecast" as a Republican thinker or a Democratic thinker. In any case, facts remain. Some of these facts are that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. The basis of economy is changing from manufacturing to information. We have been through only a few sweeping subsistence form changes before, from hunting and gathering to domestication of plants and animals, to farming, to industrial to information. So this is having an impact on our civilization. If we can keep in mind that through all this sweeping change, we must guard our environment, remain civil to each other, protect our young, be judicious in our decisions, plan well for the future, and most of all, engage in constructive debate, we will at least have tried. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12052 Registered: 1-2003  |
AlleyGater, consider an analogy. Ask most people who just bought a house how they like their house or neighborhood. Or who just bought a car how they like it. They will say they love it. Why? Because they just invested a lot in it and won't believe it's a mistake, at least not for a while. And after that, it's still hard to admit it wasn't the best choice. Many of us put a lot of emotional investment into our voting choices. It's hard to see clearly whether it was wise. It takes a lot of introspection to realize that one might have been wrong. Most people don't have that. But it's a good sign that many people who usually vote Republican and many people who voted for or worked for Bush are saying very damning things. There aren't as many as we'd like, but those who exist and speak out are, in a sense, speaking for others who don't have the fortitude to say something or think about their choices. | ||
| maplewood fan Citizen Username: Mplwfan Post Number: 277 Registered: 4-2003  |
Alley - As an expatriate of Louisiana, I love your name! We used to have fried allegator in high school when we played our rival football team, they are the Gators. About your post, many of us share your feelings, but our society is built on consensus and we need to have political discussions that encourage healthy debate. Too many of the discussions on this board go way beyond healthy (both left and right). And, I'm guilty of participating. I just wanted you to know that you are not alone and maybe there is a way for those of us in SOM to better influence national issues on a local level (besides constantly electing democrats to represent us). What about organizing a local (structured) forum on the current state of our country. I'd attend. | ||
| Alberto Citizen Username: Buckwheat Post Number: 90 Registered: 12-2005 |
DIFFICULT TOPIC ON THE BALANCE, THE GUY HAS BEEN GREAT. | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 535 Registered: 10-2005 |
Ahhhh, Maplewood, the land of diversity and loving your neighbors, but only if you are NOT a Republican!  -SLK | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 536 Registered: 10-2005 |
And oh, people are calling the White House on a monthly basis to vent??? Wouldn't pyschiatric help be more beneficial? I am all for protest, but maybe you need a hobby or two? | ||
| Grrrrrrrrrrr Citizen Username: Oldsctls67 Post Number: 215 Registered: 11-2002 |
You're right Scrotis, I've said it many times, I'll say it again...If you want your kids to have playdates, don't let their parents know you're a Republican! | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 540 Registered: 10-2005 |
Grrrrr- Sorry if I missed some rrrrrs.... I am the lone "republican" in my household and my beloved liberal wife keeps that info to her self with all her play groups she is in with our 20 month old son. But when the parents are over for cocktails I like to "test the waters"...throw some sarcastic oneliners out there...you should some of the looks on some of their faces...it was like "is he kidding? no one is suppose to think like that!" | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12143 Registered: 1-2003 |
Wouldn't pyschiatric help be more beneficial? Haha, it would for the individual, but if we have a duty to tell the government how we feel, then calling the white house would be beneficial. Ah, but I forgot. Not only does this white house not want to here us, it wants explicitly not to hear us. So you're right. It's fruitless. "This is the only thing my signature says." | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 543 Registered: 10-2005 |
Yep, Reingold and I bet all past Presidents had a direct line to the Oval Office for us common folks to grieve.... | ||
| anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 2541 Registered: 6-2002 |
I have a very difficult time believing that anyone chooses play dates for their small children based on the political affiliation of the parents. I think it's just an excuse. If you are in people's faces with politics in a social setting you might turn them off. SLK: Why would your wife even discuss politics with play group parents. If she did and stated her positions and then said "Of course my husband's a Republican and completely disagrees with me" would it really effect play dates? I think it far more likely that one of the other moms (I'm assuming moms) might say "Oh my dad's a Republican" or "my husband couldn't care less about politics, all he cares about is football". Couple of weeks ago there was a memorial service for Republican ex-Mayor Grasmere. Guest speaker was Dem Governor Codey. When did partisan politics get so divisive and nasty? Doesn't it take two teams to make a contest? | ||
| Grrrrrrrrrrr Citizen Username: Oldsctls67 Post Number: 217 Registered: 11-2002 |
I'm sorry to say anon it has happened to me here in Maplewood...Over one little comment made at a kids party one time. I was not "in anyone's face" about it. I have gone from simply cynical to full blown laconic over this incident. Political issues are of no importance to me anymore. I will hope for a Republican victory in 2008 simply to revel in the disappointment/disillusionment of all my dear neighbors. Perhaps I'm letting 1 or 2 bad apples spoil the whole bunch, but for all the charts, graphs, NYT and blog quotes, the libs around here are as vapid as any Middle-American gun-toting Mormon conservative | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12163 Registered: 1-2003 |
Grrrrrrrrrrr, I'm sorry that has happened to you. No one should treat you badly for that. There have been stories of lawn sign vandalism and worse things, based on political affiliation. There is no excuse for dispensing with courtesy. "This is the only thing my signature says." | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 547 Registered: 10-2005 |
anon- While I don't expect politics to pop up these mothers discuss EVERYTHING except for their sex lives (maybe).... And I can feel Grrrrrrrr's pain (joke-relax). When I lived in Brooklyn people in my building who I had friendly chats with on a regular basis suddenly stopped talking to me when they found out who I voted for in 2004. I even had the local thugs in my face when I told them who I voted for (they asked). I was consistenly harassed on the subway and streets of Manhattan and Brooklyn for having a "Bush Cheney 04" pin on my work bag. The biggest response was "are you joking?" I stood my ground on this last point though. Their is a grain of truth when I refer to myself as a "closeted republican." Yes, it mostly meant as a joke, but in many ways I do stay in the closet with my political beliefs...partly because I want my wife to have some friends in this new town. Do you know how many times she has said to me "oh god, people must think I am a con/repub too!" like she just contracted a deadly disease?! | ||
| Grrrrrrrrrrr Citizen Username: Oldsctls67 Post Number: 219 Registered: 11-2002 |
Tom, FWIW the NYT quote thing was NOT directed at you. I have never met you, but I have a tremendous amount of respect for you based on what I read here. It would be my pleasure to buy you a beer sometime (as would be the case with MOST of the posters here). SLK-it's funny who's in "the closet" and who's not in Maplewood compared to the rest of the country...the irony! (that was a joke people, relax) | ||
| anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 2554 Registered: 6-2002 |
I agree with Mr. Reingold. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12168 Registered: 1-2003 |
I know it wasn't directed at you. I was just comiserating with you over the fact that we live with such rude people who think rudeness is OK when it's in the name of showing people who's on the right side of the aisle. "This is the only thing my signature says." | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 554 Registered: 10-2005 |
More importantly, I remain quiet because I want my son to have a stress free life as well....you my think this is paranoia but trust me when I say I have seen it multiple times... Grrrrrrr-am I on your "beer buy" list? If so, Guinness please...?  Reingold-that wasn't you who destroyed my "Bush/Cheney" lawn signs? Darn it, now who can I blame!!! | ||
| Grrrrrrrrrrr Citizen Username: Oldsctls67 Post Number: 222 Registered: 11-2002 |
Guinness-right on brother! | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1147 Registered: 10-2004 |
I find that when I talk to people for a while it becomes very clear that I am liberally minded. CLEARLY people know I am a liberal. I don't have to state, I hate Bush, Vote Green or I am a Democrat for people to know. I remember my first conversation with one of my neighbors where we were talking about something regarding the town, I was in the process of stating, "I'm pretty liberal when it comes to these things", but before I could say "when it comes to these things" she cut me off and said, "I'M NOT!!!" in a very emphatic sort of way. She then proceeded to tell me what a conservative she is. Sorry to break the news to you, but I ended the conversation shortly afterward, and haven't bothered with her since. Can I be friends with a Republican? I guess anything is possible... I'm certainly civil to my Uncle-in-law. But overall in the current climate I find myself having less and less patience with them. Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin | ||
| Haight-Strawbury Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 6705 Registered: 10-2001  |
"Can I be friends with a Republican? I guess anything is possible." AllyGater, If you are trying to equate being a liberal with being ignorant, you've accomplished your goal with this thread and your last post. Frankly, if this is how you really feel, I for one feel sorry for you. There's nothing like being on the ocean! | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1148 Registered: 10-2004 |
Straw, You think that you can hide behind your double talk, but you're childish name calling is pitiful and obvious. I love how you come into this thread and show us just how "smart" you are petty and abusiven You come into this thread to show us how you have nothing whatsoever to add to the conversation. Do you know what a troll is? I couldn't care less whether you pity me. And I care even less about your opinion. Like an a**hole we all got an opinion. Thanks for showing us you got one too. Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin | ||
| Haight-Strawbury Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 6708 Registered: 10-2001 |
Let's see, you're the person who states you can't like someone because of who they support or vote for. It's kind of like saying you don't like someone because they're black or because they support Israel. Maybe you don't like someone because they're French, maybe because they drive a German car, maybe because they served this nation. Your hate may not have boundries and as I said I feel sorry for people like you who probably just don't know any better. However, at least you're honest about it. May be a good thing to discuss with your shrink. There's nothing like being on the ocean! | ||
| Grrrrrrrrrrr Citizen Username: Oldsctls67 Post Number: 224 Registered: 11-2002 |
When I first started posting on this board a couple of years ago, Alley Gater came right out and said since I was a Republican, I would not be welcome in her home. This goes once again to proving my assertion, made at that time, that the Libs in this area are as vapid and prejudicial as any Redneck out there. Another good example of this is the Maplewoody "carpet" posting. You guys are all about tolerance and saving the environment until someone marks up your precious RL carpet. PUHLEEEESE! | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1716 Registered: 12-2003  |
To be sure, Republicans haven't cornered the market on prejudice. Though (their) God knows they've tried. | ||
| Haight-Strawbury Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 6709 Registered: 10-2001 |
Grrr, Once upon a time being a liberal meant that you were a thoughtful intellect. Today being a liberal means you're angry and confused. AlleyGater is obviously not an old time liberal. There's nothing like being on the ocean! | ||
| slipknot (slippy) Citizen Username: Zotts Post Number: 238 Registered: 7-2004  |
Once upon a time being a conservative actually meant caring about the size of the deficit, the safety our our troops and perhaps some type of lucid thought. Strawberry is obviously the new type. | ||
| dave23 Citizen Username: Dave23 Post Number: 1285 Registered: 5-2001 |
Grrr, Are you sure about that? You first started posting a full two years before Alley. | ||
| MBJ Citizen Username: Mbj Post Number: 106 Registered: 10-2005 |
Grrrrrr...you can't be serious. You wouldn't be welcome in her home because you're a Republican? | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1151 Registered: 10-2004 |
I feel that I have stated quite clearly why I dislike the people I have. They have been responsible for shaping our world in a way that is not healthy for me and IN MY OPINION for the rest of the world. I blame the people who I feel have been responsible for making the world the way it is right now. I have tried my best to be articulate and to explain myself as best as I can. I have put a lot of time and thought into my posts. If you don't like what I have to say, or if you think my rage and hatred are misplaced that is fine. But don't waste my time calling me or my posts ignorant. When you do, it just shows the rest of the world how ignorant and childish you are. Grrrrrrrr.... I love who you have chosen for your bedfellow. May he keep you warm at night. You can have him, he leaves a VERY NASTY TASTE IN MY MOUTH. Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin | ||
| Parkbench87 Citizen Username: Parkbench87 Post Number: 3443 Registered: 7-2001  |
I only let my kids play with children whose parents are Libertarians. It really cuts down on the playdates | ||
| Grrrrrrrrrrr Citizen Username: Oldsctls67 Post Number: 225 Registered: 11-2002 |
I could be msitaken...If it was not AG, then I do profusely apologize, but I'm pretty sure it was. My first posts in the soapboxes were somewhat after I first posted on MOL... | ||
| Haight-Strawbury Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 6711 Registered: 10-2001 |
Alleygater, What you've demonstrated is nothing more than bigotry. Your expressions aren't much different from Hitler. You hate, you blame, and you want to remove those you hold responsible. You need to get a grip on life because hate is not the answer. Frankly, I'm disappointed I have neighbors such as you. There's nothing like being on the ocean! | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 569 Registered: 10-2005 |
Hey ya'll Alleygater put alot of time and thought into her posts so that justifies her prejudical behavior... As I have always said, welcome to Maplewood, the pinnacle of diversity, as long as you are not a Republican! Start a Revolution or shut the hell up... | ||
| MBJ Citizen Username: Mbj Post Number: 107 Registered: 10-2005 |
....and want to hum Christmas songs in school. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1152 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yep that's me, I'm the MOL Hitler. Talk about projection there Straw. If I ever met a litle Hitler it's you. Also lets not forget it's the Republicans who won't grant gays rights. I mean talk about the biggoted party. In fact the Republicans used their fear and hatred for gays as a means to polarize the population to the polls. THAT TO ME IS PURE EVIL! That to me is directly analogous to what the Nazis did. At least I hate the Republicans for what they say and do. Rather than just for simply being. I feel justified feeling how I do. I have seen them disrespect the poor and needy. I've seen them give away our rights wholesale for their own greedy power. I've seen them drag us into war and unneccessarily kill thousands of our innocent soldiers in the name of hiring Dick Cheney's company with unlawful no-bid contracts and controlling oil supplies. I've seen them impose laws to force their religion upon others. I've seen them trample upon citizens inalienable rights. I've seen them sh*t upon what makes this country great time and time again. I'm sorry but I feel that hate is an appropriate word for people who act this way. Call me a bigot, it's just words. It's action that have real meaning. And the actions of your party is despicable. Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin | ||
| Haight-Strawbury Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 6713 Registered: 10-2001 |
 There's nothing like being on the ocean! |
