| Author | Message | ||
     cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5130 Registered: 8-2003 |
Innis -- I don't think it's accurate to say the country has lost whatever social consciousness it might have had. In 2003 there was 240B in private sector philanthropy. Add in what the government does via taxation, and I think it's quite significant. What isn't taken into account is the US military, which has been providing a security welfare state to Europe (save the Brits maybe) and other countries, so much so that they don't develop significant military forces of their own. I'm sure many won't count that as charity at all, until they need the US and maybe not even then. And I believe in terms of giving, the South of the US is more charitable on a per-person basis than other parts of the country. To be fair, Blue States are 'charitable' to the rest of the country in terms how much of their tax dollars they net out of Washington. | ||
| frannyfree Citizen Username: Frannyfree Post Number: 152 Registered: 1-2004 |
I read this entire thread and cannot actually tell the Republicans from the Democrats. Politicians are the same, no matter what party. Anyone who thinks there is a big difference is fooling themselves. They ALL cause fraction and hate between the populations and this thread is proof! I see very little difference especially at the National Level. | ||
| Grrrrrrrrrrr Citizen Username: Oldsctls67 Post Number: 245 Registered: 11-2002 |
Fanny is right on...that's been my point all along. Libs consider themselves to be morally superior to all us warmongers, but they're right down there in the gutter with us. Mojo Nixon once sang about America being the lowest common denominator strip mall, mondo-condo shopping mall society from hell! Word! | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10556 Registered: 5-2001 |
I think the high charity rate in the south is because conservative Christian churches require members to tithe. Heck even Our Lady of Sorrows is a thithing parish, but I suspect many members don't follow that request. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12354 Registered: 1-2003  |
Thank you, Shawna. That was beautiful and well put. Frannyfree, I think there is a big difference in party ideologies, and it is most acute at the national level, especially in domestic policies. However, I think an individual's party affiliation is less important than AlleyGater seems to feel. I care more about how a person treats his family and his neighbors than how he feels the government should act. I also think it's important to be civil and respectful to those we disagree with. | ||
| frannyfree Citizen Username: Frannyfree Post Number: 153 Registered: 1-2004 |
Alley, don't you think it would be better for you to engage in civil debate and try to change the minds of those you disagree with than to want to get rid of them? This country has always been divided down political lines, but we have also always found a way to get along and compromise. The important thing is to be able to listen to the other side and then make your point. Remember High School debating? We need to have Civics classes in our schools again. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1169 Registered: 10-2004 |
I made my point. I tried to convince them. They won't listen. Instead they get insulting and nasty. They won't change their opinions, now matter how compelling my argument. What horrifies me is the LACK of concern and attention that they put into their posts. Almost none of the Republicans even bothered to give a counter-argument or worthwhile comment to anything I wrote, instead relying on calling me names, calling me a nazi or calling me crazy. And then they had the nerve to call me stupid?!? | ||
| frannyfree Citizen Username: Frannyfree Post Number: 156 Registered: 1-2004 |
takes a long time to change minds..usually. I always listened to the other side and I am sometimes convinced to change my mind. But if you start a conversation the way you did, you will find people will not listen. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1173 Registered: 10-2004 |
Well you would think that someone on the Right would have been intelligent and replied to someone else on this thread if I was too much of an affront to them. I mean other people did post (and not ALL of the were reactionary jerks like me). The bottom line as far as I can tell is this. That there are a handful of raving right wing loonies on this site (I appreciate that you all came onto this thread to reveal yourselves) who are VERY VOCAL. It is always the same ones in every thread that show up and toss around their vitriol. They also don't care at all about educating or convincing others that they have anything worthwhile to share, proven by their uneducated comments and their in your face ruthless attacks. I am actually pretty open-minded and will usually listen to someones argument or point. I usually start with having an opinon. I am a strong believer in the Socratic debate. And if someone makes a compelling point I will later apologize or thank the other person for their insight. So far, no one has said anything worthwhile let alone worthy of me changing my mind. | ||
| Grrrrrrrrrrr Citizen Username: Oldsctls67 Post Number: 258 Registered: 11-2002 |
AG should go back and read some of her own posts...she is clearly delusional. | ||
| MBJ Citizen Username: Mbj Post Number: 119 Registered: 10-2005 |
Please don't feed the troll. | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 659 Registered: 10-2005 |
Alleygater- Her is some insight for you. You are trying to justify your hatred towards your neighbor all because he/she has different politics than you... Is this the part where I wait for a thank you? I am always skeptical when people declare themselves open minded because if you dig far deep enough you will find they are not. They are open minded ONLY if you agree with what they believe. Alley, you are trying to convince the rest of us your open minded while getting your underwear in a bind over your neighbor's Republicanism? Give me a break.... -SLK | ||
| Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 3010 Registered: 9-2001  |
Here is perhaps something more along the lines of what Alley was trying to say (or maybe not): Today a friend sent me a .wav file (which I can't seem to copy-sorry) showing W making all sorts of idiotic goofs during speeches. Then my friend calls and asks if they are cut and paste jobs. Uh, no, I tell him, those are real, honest-to-God-flubs, one after the other. He does that a lot. My friend is a very conservative Republican, but he was aghast that these were real. He says, our President sounds like an imbecile! Yup, I said, that is who you voted for and who you sent money to. But that is not the real issue. What are you going to say when your daughter gets pregnant and needs an abortion, but Alito has cast the deciding vote so constraining Roe that she can't get one or all the clinics are closed for lack of business? Hey, I am pro choice, he protests, I don't support everything Bush stands for. Sure, I said, but that is all part of the package. You supported him, funded him, pushed your friends and neighbors to vote for him (and for other conservative Republicans in the House and Senate), and you have to live with the outcome, both good and bad. Everyone knew his stance on abortion and SC appointments. The same goes for people who voted for Bush but do not support the war, or who do not like the way he appoints incompetents to FEMA and NASA. or who bristle that DeLay will be on a committee overseeing lobbying reforms, or who fear the looming budget deficit. I think this is what Alley is getting at--if you think things keep getting screwed up and you voted for Bush or for GOP control of the Congress, then you need to look in the mirror. Of course, if you think things are just fine and dandy, then Alley's rant is meaningless. And, further of course, this does not mean that Kerry or Gore would have been any better or worse--although that is irrelevant because these problems are cropping up on Bushido's watch and as a result of his policy choices and appointments. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12423 Registered: 1-2003 |
AlleyGater, I agree with most of your political views but not your approach. As SLK points out, there's very little in this thread you've said that indicates your open-mindedness and plenty to indicate the opposite. It's basically, "I'm right and you're wrong" and not a lot of "tell me the merits of your side" or "let's have coffee so we can understand each other."
Hey folks, why do people think AlleyGater is a woman? | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3182 Registered: 3-2004 |
Tom, Does everyone have to express themselves open-mindedly? Why can't you accept someone being emotionally fed up with the way things are and saying so? Is that so awful? | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 665 Registered: 10-2005 |
tulip's simple thought process: all things republican/con=bad. all things democrat/liberal=good. I doubt she would be so quick to defend Alley Gater if she wrote a "letter to my Democrat neighbor." When will everyone ever learn that free speech is a two way street? In other words, if you shoot your mouth off, expect to pay the price... | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12455 Registered: 1-2003 |
tulip, I guess there is a time for that, and maybe AlleyGater was softening (or wanted to soften) when he said he's open minded, but there was a contradiction there. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1177 Registered: 10-2004 |
Scrotis, I'm sorry but that isn't a compelling or thought provoking statement. Did you expect to convince me with that? No apologies for you yet. I already stated, that there is no specific person I am talking about when I say my neighbor. I admit that I am feeling a bit of hatred though. I admit that I feel emotional about how this current administration is running this country into the ground. I feel that the people who voted for this administration need to take responsibility for their actions. An apology would be great, but if I can't get that, then if you just don't vote Republican next time would be a fine subsititute. Until someone can explain to me why the Republicans are good and please don't bother with because they want 'lower taxes' and "smaller government' because I haven't seen the Republicans do this in way shape or form in this administration. Also the amount of damage they hav done FAR OUTWEIGHS any progress (which I think in most Republicans minds means saving themselves money at tax time) you may have seen. And by that I mean, "Wow I saved $200 on my taxes" is worth far less than my country is on a slow and steady decline.} | ||
| I "Straw"buried Paul Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 6757 Registered: 10-2001  |
Stop your whining. You sound like a spoiled silver spoon in the mouth princess. Daddy's obviously given you everything you've ever needed. Maybe someday if you ever work for a living, you'll respect those who actually earn their money. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1178 Registered: 10-2004 |
Wow that was a very well thought out post their Straw. Thanks for sharing. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1179 Registered: 10-2004 |
MBJ: I think is is actually a bit unfair to call me a troll. I feel like I put my heart and thought into my posts. I don't just enter someone elses thread and call them names and stir up trouble. I do however enjoy the bulletin board medium. I enjoy the conversations and the disagreements. I like the sharing of ideas and learning from others insights. Do I sometimes post things provocatively? Am I sometimes abrasive? Do I piss people off? Do I spark fights? I've been called flame-bait before -- a moniker I sorta admired to be honest. Because of this thread, I've received a few emails from folks asking me to stop feeding the trolls...so I could handle being called a troll-feeder or even troll-bait but I reject the title of troll. | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 675 Registered: 10-2005 |
Alleygater- You are right. I give up and will surrender myself to your doorstep at midnight tonight and apologize profusely for my voting decisions. You seem a bit confused. Do you have issues with the Bush Administration or Republicans in general? If you have a beef with Dubya & Co. then fine, it is your right. But to sum up the entire Republican population over one president is narrowminded and childish, Miss openmindedness. Newsflash: Bush isn't so much a Republican as he is a radical. And he isn't a "c"onservative in my eyes as well as many others. I know many cons/repubs that don't like him either. Are some his actions really that foreign to you? He took many Democratic ideals as his own. My choices in 11/04 were either Bush or Kerry...now that was a tough choice.... I don't think you are a troll. Many people seem to not know what a troll is on these boards. And you have every right to be frustrated with how things are going. I just think you are trying to justify your prejudicial behavior, masking your bigotry toward anything reopublican with frustration toiwards the current administration. People can justify anything if they put their mind to it. | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 663 Registered: 2-2004 |
Alley, Please post your follow up letter that explains why the Dems are a better alternative. They ran Congress for decade after decade so I'm sure they have some great ideas. Please let me know why I should vote for them instead. And please tell me something more than she's married to Bill or he's married to Teresa, or he invented the interent. Please do tell. I'd really like to go back to the days of Tip O'Neil and Jim Wright. | ||
| I "Straw"buried Paul Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 6760 Registered: 10-2001 |
She has no clue who Tip O'Neil is. As a matter of fact I'm pretty certain that 2004 was the first time AlleyHater ever even voted. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1180 Registered: 10-2004 |
Why are the Democrats a better alternative? Because when I vote Democrat, I don't have to worry about Roe v. Wade being overturned. I don't have to worry that someone elses religion will be shoved down my throat. That my children's education's won't include revised unintelligent religious science. I will know that the concept of church and state continue being separate and that judges won't have the 10 commandments hanging in their courtrooms. I will know that people care about other people sometimes even more than saving some money. I will know that my kids can go to the library for instance, because it wasn't cut back in some idiotic tax cut. I will know that poor/ill/less fortunate people will get a fair shake, and that food is more important than bombs. I will know that I can save alot more on taxes by cutting back on our war engine rather than cutting back on important social services. I will know that America will be stronger and will be a better leader to the world if we didn't ignore the Geneva convention and torture people, ignore people's civil rights, and enter other countries when we know that we don't have any legal right to. I will know that the rest of the world won't tease us for being war mongerers or for meddling in overthrowing other governments (think Latin America in the 80s, think Haiti now if you refuse to think the Middle East). I will know that there will be a cleaner Mother Nature for my children to play in. By that I mean I will know that our ecology will be prioritized higher than oil interests and that once again lower taxes isn't more important than polluting our world. I will know that when an energy bill is passed it won't reccomend more nuclear energy. I will know that alternative sustainable, ecologically friendly energy supplies might really become a priority and get included in the energy legislation the FIRST TIME IT IS PASSED THROUGH CONGRESS and it won't be needed to mention it as an afterthought after it is found out that the oil companies (read big business) have been illegally gouging us. I will know that my children will be safe from a draft for a war that we shouldn't even be in because the whole basis for us being in it was admitted to be wrong by our president. I will know that a president should be impeached for something worthwhile like lying to it's people to start a war or spying on us illegally and walking right over our rights instead of being impeached for being indiscreet about idiotic issues like their extra-marital affairs. I will know that legislation won't intentinally be passed to disenfranchise people (such as gay people if you really need an example). Look I could go on and on and on. The bottom line is I care about people more than money. I don't want to lose my civil liberties or even have them erroded. I care about our world and don't want it polluted. I don't like unneccessary war it's expensive and doesn't make me feel safer and it doesn't help me to sleep better at night. And I don't want someone elses religion forced into my life in anyway. Our countries forefathers worked hard to allow people of all faiths to coexist and to make clear distinctions between church and state. I don't feel that is unreasonable. Oh yeah and BTW Straw, you question my age and then act like a 4 y/o grow the f-up would you. Just for the record, having nothing worthwhile to add to a thread and then insulting someone is EXACTLY WHAT A TROLL IS. Thanks for showing the other kids who are watching at home what not to do. | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 679 Registered: 10-2005 |
Alleygater, Where does one even begin? If I have to sum your entire typical cliche left wing rant up, if you think Clinton was impeached for merely engaging "extra-marital affairs" then you are completely clueless, biased or both. So why else would someone have qualms about abortion if it wasn't for "caring for people?" Do the world a favor, read something else besides the Nation every so often.... | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 94 Registered: 12-2004 |
Alleygator: Just curious, but regarding your issue of separation of church and state, would you please clarify for me why Coretta Scott King was given the honor of lying in state? and further, why did the press repeatedly state it was an honor that was "denied to her husband"? On the subject of the ten commandments, I want to know which one is the most offensive and is not already incorporated into our current legal system. For example: "Thou shalt not kill." Are the Democrats opposed to that one? Finally (for today) which country is "teasing" us? and how? Who is "teasing" Denmark today? Just curious. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12464 Registered: 1-2003 |
Elaine, how about the first four? 1. You shall have no other Gods but me. 2. You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it. 3. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God. 4. You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy. None of these is coded into law, nor should it be. 10. You must not be envious of your neighbour's goods. You shall not be envious of his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbour. Good advice, but if you don't act on it, it's not illegal. Looks like you didnt looked at the commandments before you said the above. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12466 Registered: 1-2003 |
Oh, and how could I skip these? 5. Respect your father and mother. Good advice, but not a law. 6. You must not kill. OK, this is a law. 7. You must not commit adultery. Not a law any more! 8. You must not steal. This is a law, too. 9. You must not give false evidence against your neighbour. Also law. So three of these are now laws, Elaine. As a historic document, it is the foundation of original systems of law in western civilization. They are not our laws any more. This may or may not put an end to the debate (for the moment) over whether church and state are -- or should be -- separate. If not, perhaps we can make a separate thread for that. | ||
| MBJ Citizen Username: Mbj Post Number: 121 Registered: 10-2005 |
Ally...what is your opinion of Democratic presidents who lie under oath? Give 'em a pass, right? | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 95 Registered: 12-2004 |
Tom, no one is forcing you to obey the first four. If I am wrong, please correct me. Optional only. And about respecting your father and mother, God Fordbid!!! | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 96 Registered: 12-2004 |
I do not know how to correct my spelling on "forbid." Sorry. | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 668 Registered: 2-2004 |
Alley, What will you do if you vote Dem in 2008 and then in 2009, the SC overturns Roe? Doesn't that blow away your opening sentence. Listen, I respect your view, although I disagree. This is the struggle we are in. We both believe our view is correct and the other side is totally wrong. I understand your frustration. I was frustrated for decades watching the Dems run Congress like their own playground with absolutely no compassion for the minority party. So, yes, I understand how you feel. Unfortunately, like sports, politics can only have one victor. We don't have a dual Presidency and we can't have a tie in the House or Senate (remember the VP). So, all our frustrations and anxiety can either be relieved or exacerbated with the outcomes of elections. Rather, than moan and whine, it would behoove you to let your own party know what they are doing wrong. We conservatives did this just recently with the Meiers nomination. We let Bush know this was a poor choice and would hurt his future causes if he preceded. He got the message loud and clear and now we are all on the same page heading into November. That is how you handle frustration. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1182 Registered: 10-2004 |
I appreciate that the conversation has become a little less (for lack of a better word) nasty (or bash on AlleyGater because he's stupid and crazy). Having said that, I would like a Republican to explain why it's OK to pervert the separation of church and state. Why it is OK for our president to break the law and spy on his own people and not get impeached. Why it is OK to admit that the reason he used to drag us into a war was false but then insist on continuing the war. I would like to know how Republicans who aren't religious think it's OK to have the President vow to overturn Roe v. Wade and if it is overturned will you feel some bit of responsibility for it? I would like to know all this and more? I have tried to articulate why I am so disappointed with where this administration has taken us (I have never read the Nation) and I feel like it is completely fair to place blame on the Republican community (you lot) for having placed these people in office. I may have stated my case in a very amateurish manner...maybe even an uneducated manner...but it is the only way I know -- sue me. Now it is time for a Republicans to explain to me some of these things that I have asked. Go back through my posts and answer some of my stupid questions because I really would like to know how the other half thinks. How else will I ever come to understand you or even be persuaded by you? For instance Southerner says he/she disagrees with my opinion, but that doesn't actually tell me what he/she believes. It doesn't explain why he/she believes that. You state that I am a cliche of the Democratic party (actually I usually am disappointed that the Democrats don't go far enough constantly trying to woo Republicans and usually I wish they did more and took a bigger stand). Are you stating that you too are a cliche of your party and therefore need not explain anything because we already know it? If so than I will just continue to assume that you all are greedy people who care more about lining your own pockets with cash and couldn't give a sh*t about your neighbor or the environment. You say I am so close-minded but you never state anything that OPENS MY MIND. How about someone giving a stab at it. How about someone explain to me how our country is getting better due to the actions of the Republican party. I'll try my best not to throw all the graft (Libby, DeLay, Enron, Halliburton, etc.), lies (WMD), anti-gay legislation, war mongering (Iraq), Religion in our Schools (Intelligent Design), Religion in our laws (Roe v. Wade), etc. in your faces. Everyone keeps calling me stupid but no one has shown me that they are smart. I did want to answer this one query: I do not see that aborting a fetus somehow means I don't care about people. You see, I care more about a Mother than I care about an unwanted fetus. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1183 Registered: 10-2004 |
No not at all. The only reason it will get overturned is because the Republicans padded the SC with their own apointees that can no longer be ousted. If a Democrat was elected in 2004 we wouldn't have to worry about Bush declaring war on Roe v. Wade. Are you stating that the damage of Bush being reelected has already been done, so why not just keep electing Republicans to do more damage? Was that a serious question you asked me? Did I misunderstand your question? | ||
| Grrrrrrrrrrr Citizen Username: Oldsctls67 Post Number: 266 Registered: 11-2002 |
AG, are you saying it's not OK for any president to spy on his own people, or that it's not OK for Republican president to spy on his won people? | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 712 Registered: 10-2005 |
Alleygater- What is wrong with caring for both the mother and the fetus? Why does it have to be one or the other? Hate to feed your fears but everyone knows on these boards that I think, constitutionally speaking, RvW should be overturned. The decision was a gross overreach of judicial power. Give abortion back to the states where it belongs. And it is becoming more apaprent that you are just prejudicial against those who think differently then you. -SLK | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 97 Registered: 12-2004 |
Alleygator: I tried to get engaged into your "conversation" but you ignored me completely even though I was new to the discussion. Was it just an oversight? or was it intentional? To tackle all the issues you raised, one must start somewhere so I asked you to explain the state funeral for Coretta Scott King and how that would fit into your ideology given your concern about separation of church and state. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12473 Registered: 1-2003 |
Elaine, I don't see what you're getting at. Do you think Coretta Scott King should not get any special status if she's connected with some church? I don't buy that. I think people can receive honors if they contribute substantially to the country in any way. And was King a member of the clergy anyway? I know her husband was, but you're asking about the widow. | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 98 Registered: 12-2004 |
Tom, I was trying to get Alleygator engaged in the dialogue to focus on the genesis (no pun intended) of the issue. The question is: When, if ever, should the government recognize religion? Who is entitled to a State funeral? Of course an important figure is entitled to honors, but who or what (institution) should bestow them? |
