| Author | Message | ||
     Joan Supporter Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 7223 Registered: 5-2001 |
(Posted in Soapbox in deference to Sbenois and Library Lady) The lead story in the New York Times Food Section this past Wednesday declared that not only are baking soda and baking powder now considered to be kosher for Passover by some of the strictest orthodox groups in this country but "leavened" baked goods in general may now be considered Kosher for Passover as long as no yeast was used in their preparation. This sounds a lot like the old arguement that veal parm is kosher as long as you can be sure that the meat and the cheese came from animals which were not mother and child. Assuming you celebrate Passover, is this reinterpretation of leavened foods going to markedly change what you eat during Passover this year? | ||
| Dogbert Citizen Username: Dogbert Post Number: 55 Registered: 1-2006  |
If you're looking for logic there are all kinds of kosher rules you could dump. Why are chicken and other birds considered meat? I stopped trusting the New York Times for anything years ago, and this is just makes me feel better about the decision. I doubt any serious orthodox authorities follow the rule you cite. The story wasn't dated April 1, was it? | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 519 Registered: 7-2005  |
USA Today...all the way! | ||
| MHCLyons Citizen Username: Hamandeggs Post Number: 244 Registered: 8-2005 |
Yes, they do follow it. The point was made that bak soda and powder are minerals, like many other minerals already in the food. | ||
| sac Supporter Username: Sac Post Number: 3341 Registered: 5-2001 |
Why wouldn't chicken be considered meat? For that matter, why shouldn't fish? Birds and fish are animals, so doesn't that make it meat? Now, if you are talking about RED meat, that's a different thing. | ||
| Dogbert Citizen Username: Dogbert Post Number: 56 Registered: 1-2006 |
Sorry, that's not the way it works. The origin of the meat-milk problem is a prohibition against cooking a kid in the milk of its mother (something the babylonians specifically did, FWIW). Birds aren't mammals, so why should this be an issue? And to confuse matters further, fish is not meat for kosher reasons, even among the most orthodox | ||
| catmanjac Citizen Username: Catmanjac Post Number: 125 Registered: 2-2004  |
See oukosher.org | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14887 Registered: 10-2001  |
Here's the way it works: anything that LL wants to have for passover has K/P on it in red sharpie thin point writing. Must be a new certification service. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14888 Registered: 10-2001 |
Which reminds me: we are now less than a week away from the first ever posting of the fabled Matzoh Charlotte story Part I. | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1758 Registered: 5-2001 |
Illuminate a shiksa/atheist - What is Kosher? I thought it was pretty simple - keep the meat and dairy away from each other - OK, I can do that. If I buy Kosher goodies at Whole Foods but mix it with a rasher of bacon on the conveyer belt - did I mess up the Kosher-ness? If I mix my Kosher stuff in my non-Kosher pantry but don't let them touch is that cool? If I bring over my Kosher stuff in a dish that's been washed with all our dishes does that mean we have to throw the dish in the backyard or something? (This I learned from Curb Your Enthusiasm) Is keeping Kosher sort of like Cooties? I've gone through the no-meat Friday (except sometimes) thing with my devoutly Catholic in-laws, and I like a challenge that results in a good meal. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14890 Registered: 10-2001 |
"it's when they kill the pig humanely" | ||
| LibraryLady(ncjanow) Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3266 Registered: 5-2001  |
Lydia, Sben is gonna warn you not to listen to anything I say but..... Oh wait , he's probably right 'cause I don't keep a kosher home. But, after more than five years of suffering every time someone starts a Passover topic, I'm about to throw in the towel (and the matzoh, brisket , chicken soup, chopped liver, gefiltte fish,and even MATZOH CHARLOTTE>) If you google "Matzoh Charlotte" our ...ahem... discussion is the third thread listed. /discus/messages/129/7008.html I guess I'm going out for cheeseburgers next Wed. | ||
| Joan Supporter Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 7226 Registered: 5-2001 |
SAC: The poultry as meat rule is a question of appearances. If it looks like it could be veal (or some other type of white meat from a mammal), then it should be treated as if it were meat. As was stated above, Kashruth is not always about logic. Lydia: If you mix your previously kosher food with real bacon (as opposed to soy bacon), it is no longer kosher because real bacon is never kosher. The answer to your pantry question persons who keep kosher would not have any food in their pantry which wasn't kosher. This tends to make that question moot. Regarding your dish question: I assume by a non kosher dish, you mean a dish which has been used to serve non-kosher food. You wouldn't find such a dish in a kosher home. However, washing dishes poses other types of problems. First, the dishes would have to be washed using kosher soap and secondly, you would not be able to wash your dishes which were used for dairy meals and your dishes which were used for meat in the same sink (which is why you will often find double sinks in the kitchens of most kosher homes and two bars of dish soap (red for meat and blue for dairy). One question you didn't ask was if the pots and/or pans used to cook the meal or the utensils, mixing bowls, chopping board, etc. were kosher. If any of these had been used for the preparation of your "kosher" dish, the dish would not be kosher as far as a person who keeps kosher is concerned. As you may have guessed kosher is far from simple. | ||
| Joan Supporter Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 7227 Registered: 5-2001 |
MHCLyons: I understand the argument the Times writer was making but if you follow their logic (Dogbert, I agree this is more about tradition than logic), then why would rice and corn be prohibited? (This assumes your interpretation of kosher for passover is closer to Sbenois' than Library Lady's) It's my understanding that rice and corn have been prohibited in the past because they puff up when they are cooked, giving the appearance of leavening. The article didn't suggest that the Askenazi would condone eating rice and corn during Passover as a result of this "ruling". | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1759 Registered: 5-2001 |
OK - I just bought a bunch of new dishes, which I washed with the dishes that the dogs eat out of BUT I sanitized them all - which meant that my dishwasher ran for an extra hour and steamed everything - does that steam away the non-kosher-ness? My Grandparents Kept Kosher, but they always put out whatever I brought to Passover, and that was before I knew the rules. I'm beginning to think this is way too complicated and I should just bring a bottle of Kosher wine. Seriously, can I co-mingle the Kosher wine on my non-Kosher counter or should I just drop it off before we get home? | ||
| LibraryLady(ncjanow) Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3267 Registered: 5-2001 |
MMMMMM Matzoh  | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 522 Registered: 7-2005 |
That stuff could roof a house | ||
| Suzanne Ng Citizen Username: Suzanneng Post Number: 703 Registered: 3-2002 |
but covered in milk chocolate, it is good enough that even this Methodist will buy it.. I just wish there were more than 2 pieces in the package! | ||
| Joan Supporter Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 7229 Registered: 5-2001 |
Lydia: The kosher wine should be safe since it is protected in a sealed bottle. Just check to make sure that the wine you bring is clearly labeled Kosher for Passover. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14891 Registered: 10-2001 |
Speaking of Passover...this movie is supposed to be hysterical - it's about a Passover seder where the guests get loaded up on ecstasy. I am planning on seeing it tom'w night at 7:40 in Maplewood. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0392908/ | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13501 Registered: 1-2003  |
Last weekend, I heard the word "matzoh" used derogatorily. Complaining about the pizza in a local pizzeria, the speaker said, "Why does everyone love their pizza!? It tastes like matzoh!" True confession time: I received a bread machine several years ago and used it a lot for the first few months. I was so excited to try out new recipes that the first time I made challah was during Passover. Lydia, there is no one true definition of kashrut (the noun form of the adjective "kosher." There are differences between Ashkenazis and Sephardics (e.g. the rule about corn and rice). There are differences between Orthodoxes and other Jews. And Orthodoxes have a tradition off being inventive and innovative in finding new was to add new restrictions, just to be sure they are complying with the original rules. To me, the Passover cakes that are made fluffy by using tons of egg whites comply with the letter of the law but not the spirit. And aren't baking powder and baking soda leavening by virtually any definition? Yeast is a modern thing. The Jews of the Exodus did not use yeast like we have today which rises in just an hour. That's been developed over centuries. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13502 Registered: 1-2003 |
Oh, and kosher for Passover is another ballgame. That was your original question, Lydia, right? I don't know all the rules. (Who could?) But I believe everything has to be cleaned out expressly for Passover. And you must be sure it has had no contact with baking goods. My company has a preponderance of Orthodox Jews. The cafeteria is closed for all of Passover and a little afterward. What a drag. This is my first Passover at the company. But I do understand. It's so much trouble to clean up for Passover that it is too costly to make things kosher for Passover, so they just, ahem, pass over that opportunity. | ||
| campbell29 Citizen Username: Campbell29 Post Number: 402 Registered: 4-2002 |
For some reason, I think if you bury a dish overnight it suddenly becomes "clean" for kosher dietary purposes. I don't know how you need to go about cleaning the dish once it is ritually clean. P.S. Maybe Chinet and plastic utensils would be a good investment during this spiritually difficult time | ||
| N. Bonaparte Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2299 Registered: 5-2001 |
OK, here goes. My definition of eating kosher for passover. It all started out with the rush out of Egypt, you know get out before Pharaoh changes his mind. From that we got the matzoh, i.e., flat bread no leavening thing. My feeling is that it seems somewhat counter-productive to the whole holiday of remembering the exodus out of Egypt if many of us slave all day with the brisket, chopped liver, gefilte fish, etc. That is antithetical to rushness. My philosophy given the above: Thou shall only eat fast food for 8 days. | ||
| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 3708 Registered: 5-2001  |
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| Gettin' Old........ Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3269 Registered: 5-2001 |
THAT'S THE PLAN. You'l have no choice in 5767 but to come back to Gan Eden for some more sucrumtilishish matzon charlotte!!! No one else will vant cha!!! You vant maybe to join with Sbenny and da mrs at the Movie, manana? Mr. LL would be sooooo excited. | ||
| Joanne G Citizen Username: Joanne Post Number: 21 Registered: 10-2004 |
OK, I gotta chime in - having just scrubbed most of my house from top (-ish) to bottom (carpets being professionally cleaned on Monday). Of course this might just mean that I am killing the thread... Kosher is difficult but not impossible. A person who doesn't keep kosher and is catering for a person who does, takes the sin of breaking the rules upon themselves, as the person who keeps kosher is trusting them to be considerate and understand their needs. So, Lydia and Joan, a non-kosher home can provide food for a kosher home with a little care. Lydia it's gonna be hard unless you buy everything new anyway, it's probably not worth the hassle unless you see these people a lot and keep the stuff for them (including all utensils etc) totally separate. For Passover, forget it. Passover is about remembering what it's like to be homeless. It's about being refugees. It's not about edible luxuries. Bi-carb etc aren't allowable because they create bubbles thatlead to a flattish substance rising (egg white is already beaten into an airy bubble-filled substance that lends its height to the flour mix,which is why it's OK). The rising is symbolic of becoming puffed up and not remembering the hardship and the strength of ancestral and spiritual roots - but you knew that, anyway. I grew up fairly Orthodox, went to a very Orthodox Hebrew school for 3 hours each weekday after secular school (which interestingly enough was a Methodist girls' school!). My mum taught pre-school for ultr-ultra-Orthodox and I babysat my way through high school for them. My uncle and his family make the ultra-ultra's look like heathen. Happy to answer more questions, even if off-list. Enjoy your Shabbat, everyone!!  | ||
| Dogbert Citizen Username: Dogbert Post Number: 57 Registered: 1-2006 |
>>I understand the argument the Times writer was making but if you follow their logic (Dogbert, I agree this is more about tradition than logic), then why would rice and corn be prohibited? We're together on this. And as you imply, some of these rules are Ashkenazi rules, not sephardic. Some time ago, some Ashkeazi rabbi made a ruling and it's been respected since. IOW, it's tradition, and it seems ripe for a long-term modification. BTW, I especially like the grape-flavored matzah. Can't get enough. And finally, I want to be a Matzah Man! | ||
| Joan Supporter Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 7232 Registered: 5-2001 |
The easiest way for a person who doesn't keep kosher to cater to a person who does is to use a new paper table coth to cover the table, and new disposable dishes, glasses, plastic utensils, etc. My family did that during Passover for years rather than get two additional sets of dishes to use exclusively for the holiday. [Another option (at least according to my mother) is to use glass plates and glasses. She always held that since glass is non-porous it does not absorb food particles the way china plates do. Therefore, the same set of glass dishes could be used for meat and milk as well as for Passover.] It is also easiest to serve a cold meal rather than a hot one or get kosher take-out just before the guest(s) arrive(s). This solves the problem of using non-kosher tools in the preparation of the meal. Storing unopen packages of kosher food in a fridge or cupboard which also holds non-kosher food shouldn't be a problem since the packaging will protect the kosher food from contact with non-kosher items. Wendy: I second the motion for fast food for the eight days of Passover especially now that the New York Times (in the same article) has pointed out that the legumes used in Cholent are not Kosher for Passover (possibly because they rise when soaked?) I've somewhat solved the problem by cooking a turkey just before the holiday and buying a variety of sides from the supermarket. We then eat turkey this or that for the rest of the week. | ||
| Josh Holtz Citizen Username: Jholtz Post Number: 396 Registered: 4-2004 |
Everything you needed to know about matzah: http://www.atomfilms.com/contentPlay/shockwave.jsp?id=matzah&preplay= | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5314 Registered: 10-1999  |
All I know is, this is the time of year to pick up some Kosher for Passover Coca Cola - made with sugar (the old-fashioned way) instead of corn syrup. | ||
| sac Supporter Username: Sac Post Number: 3343 Registered: 5-2001 |
Thanks for the reminder. I've had a mental note to do that for months, but it had not clicked yet. | ||
| Joanne G Citizen Username: Joanne Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2004 |
I think the best discussion of all things Kosher for Passover I've ever heard was a few years ago, by the rabbi leading a small extremely ultra Orthodox from Eastern Europe community that still tries to live in the Middle Ages. Most of the community now either live in Israel or in the USA. Anyway, he declared that fresh bananas are not KLP. There was an uproar. He said only foods mentioned in the Bible can be eaten during this week, unless specifically prohibited (like the grains mentioned above). Again, huge uproar. He said 'if you can't live without this modern food for one week then you really need to look at your life and your values'.  | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13523 Registered: 1-2003 |
That's food for thought but difficult to carry out. And yes, of course, that's the rabbi's point. But I'm having trouble convincing people to eat while reclining, which is expressly prescribed. | ||
| Joanne G Citizen Username: Joanne Post Number: 23 Registered: 10-2004 |
I've always thought it's particularly hard for left-handed people, too!!  | ||
| sac Supporter Username: Sac Post Number: 3344 Registered: 5-2001 |
Bananas are modern? | ||
| Joanne G Citizen Username: Joanne Post Number: 24 Registered: 10-2004 |
Apparently, if you use the definition of 'not in the Bible'. Considering that this religious communtiy still wants to wear middle ages' stockings, fur hats, and suits (well, the men anyway - I've never seen any photos of the women), I think it's a bit rich. Needless to say, we eat bananas and other fresh fruits and vegetables at this time of year - I can't afford all the fancy pre-prepared stuff available!!  | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1763 Registered: 5-2001 |
Thanks...I guess. I don't understand the fast-food sidebar at all, it's an inside nod - yes? i sampled delish Matsoh Brickle at Whole Foods, it's matsoh (I know my spelling is off) covered with dark chocolate and brown sugar and honey and it is soooo good. I can't even begin to figure out how to bring it next door. I dig the OCD aspect of keeping Kosher, but my ADD/athiest monkey keeps kicking in and I can't deal with the details. Kosher wine will have to do! | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14900 Registered: 10-2001 |
Hey Lydia, Did you wear that adorable hat today during the sleet? I love that hat. | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1764 Registered: 5-2001 |
S - "Did you wear that adorable hat today during the sleet? I love that hat." I thought you hated that hat! My sweet baby wore the hat while I suffered. It's really a wonderful hat, it covers the head and the ears and the neck - pretty much everything above C1. |
