| Author | Message | ||
     LW Citizen Username: Lrw Post Number: 78 Registered: 10-2005 |
*The name of the commission is: New Jersey Commission to Review Criminal Sentencing | ||
| Flimbro Citizen Username: Flimbro Post Number: 28 Registered: 6-2005 |
Hoops I agree with most of your sentiments with one exception. I was born before 1960 and I'm well aware of what the struggle for civil rights IS about. I'm also observant enough to know that it isn't over just because some black people are movie stars and millionaires or simply owners of nice houses in the suburbs. I'm also just sophisticated enough to know that the Constitution challenges America to be "great", but on it's own does not bequeath "greatness". I also reserve the right just like some other posters in this thread to develop my world view based on information from as many sources as I can find. This includes a wide swath of personalities black and white, yellow and brown- Louis Farrakhan and Thomas Jefferson included. If a man who owns another man and his family can still be great but horribly flawed, why can't Farrakhan at least be tolerated and horribly flawed? After all he is subject to the "standards of his day" right? I'm not equating the contributions of these two men but am I trying to point out what I think is a flaw in your logic. One on hand you can celebrate the achievements of one man who acknowledged the idea that Africans were three/fifths of a human, lived his life with this conviction and helped to craft a government and a country around this concept- the effects of which shape the foundation of race relations to this day. But you can't tolerate any suggestion of discourse from another man who is a product of that system because he publishes misguided anti Semitic pamphlets- (which have limited distribution and little mainstream shelf life). If you can glean understanding from a slaver and a rapist why can't I differentiate between anti Semitism and fact? I'm all for interracial relationships but regarding a beige America- I'd rather not wait for us to be the same color tomorrow in order to have what my parents earned yesterday. I don't think many folks really understand what they're saying when they advance the naive idea of equality by default based on the creation of one "race". Why do I have to be lighter to enjoy a full life and why do you have to be darker to have some peace in your heart? | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6011 Registered: 5-2001  |
LW, Question: "The commission has found that because of these discriminatory drug laws, an overwhelmingly disproportionate amount of Blacks and Latinos are incarcerated for non-violent offenses, compared to their white counterparts." Are you saying that drug laws are different for schools with Blacks and Latinos? | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6012 Registered: 5-2001 |
Thomas Jefferson was also a sexist pig. | ||
| kathleen Citizen Username: Symbolic Post Number: 482 Registered: 3-2005 |
Nice post Greenetree, well worth having out there. And I have to also say I'm constantly impressed by bklyntonj's tireless interest in having cross-racial dialogue. Wendy, as I said before, it is just the nature of such discussions to downplay even the egregious negatives of a person whom you see as fighting for your cause in other ways, and I don't know anybody who doesn't do it, most especially on MOL. You put out a higher standard, but then you are obliged to live by it. You'd have to stop defending and applauding and declaring yourself to be a big fan of a lot of the most insulting, racially bigoted posters on this board. Some of them are every bit as bad as Louis Farrakhan in their speech. This may have already been said in this already long thread, but the current pope actually WAS a Nazi at one point in his life. Can you imagine what would have happened if CHS students had made a movie at the end of last year that was a collage of the year's news events, including the pope's election, and the principal of the school forbade its showing because it glorified Hitler youth and began lambasting the head of the Catholic church for his nazi past? In the newspaper interview, Renee Pollack was quoted as saying: "I'm a member of this community. Don't I get a voice?" The answer is actually "No." If she wants "a voice" to express her personal opinions about ministers, politics, nazis, whatever, etc., she can resign her job as principal and come on MOL and say whatever she likes however over the top she likes. The problem here is a principal who has demonstrated repeatedly she doesn't understand that her voice is now the voice of a public institution. She can't just shoot her mouth off whenever she's angry and upset. That's not the job. She said she has a contract. I think she should read it. I suspect it has a clause that says she is expected to conduct herself a certain way given her official position. I don't think she's been living up to that part of the contract, and it's gotten past the point people can defend her. She doesn't look inclined to change. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4200 Registered: 12-2001  |
"Thomas Jefferson was also a sexist pig." Was that by the standards of 2006 or 1776? Per Barbara Tuchman, it is never correct to judge people of yesterday by the standards of tody. Hitler was wrong because he violated the standards of his time. Two thousand years earlier, what the Nazis did would have been called "best practices". | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1087 Registered: 10-2004  |
Flimbro - I am not attempting to forgive or belittle the evil that slave ownership is however when viewing Thomas Jefferson, 2 centuries past, you have formed and expressed a view of him and therefore of all owners of slaves, black, white, indian or other from the past that taints everything they do with one brush. Thomas Jefferson was the man who penned 'All Men Are Created Equal'. I dont know if he included black people in this equality, maybe you can let me know, however I do know that in 2006 it is true of all people regardless of skin pigmentation. I am not going to belittle Farrakhan any more then I already have. I can agree that he has made strong and powerful comments on social issues and I can agree that he has fostered a cohesion in parts of the black community where there was need for cohesion. I do not and can not put my trust in a person with the types of cross talking and selective commentary that he uses to prevent the unity between black and jewish people. I remain optimistic in the evolution of relationships between people of all races. It is in this way that in my utopian desire I seen no color and I see no differences that arent due to personality. I agree that a few rich black folks dont prove a thing. In fact I never refered to rich blacks as relative to anything. There are still major problems to be overcome and these problems will not be resolved in my lifetime but I have hope. I see improvement, I see attempts being made at inclusion, and I see (or think I see) a growing black middle class. No amount of talking about this is going to alleviate the pain that racism causes but exposing racism wherever it exists helps to remove it as a tool that can be used to propagate oppression. I thank you for taking the time to listen to this point of view and actually I think I am going to sign off this thread. | ||
| LW Citizen Username: Lrw Post Number: 79 Registered: 10-2005 |
MEM-No, I didn't necessarily mean to say that, maybe this can help better articulate. This was pulled from the Justice Policy Institute's website: "Communities of color are disproportionately impacted by drug-free school zone laws. Densely populated urban neighborhoods, where people of color are more likely to live, are blanketed by prohibited zones, while rural and suburban neighborhoods are less affected. In New Jersey, three-quarters of Newark, and over half of Jersey City and Camden, falls within a zone compared to just six percent of rural Mansfield Township. The result of this “urban effect” is what New Jersey’s sentencing commission terms 'a devastatingly disproportionate impact on New Jersey’s minority community.'" "National studies have found that whites, blacks and Hispanics use illegal drugs at similar rates, and also that most users obtain drugs from people with their own racial or ethnic background." ...nonwhites were more likely to be charged with an offense that can carry a drug-free zone enhancement than whites who engaged in similar conduct." | ||
| sac Supporter Username: Sac Post Number: 3354 Registered: 5-2001 |
Personally, I have a bit of a problem with drug-free school zones, doubled fine traffic zones, etc. I think that the punishment for a crime should be the same, wherever it takes place. Now, if we're talking about increased penalties for selling drugs to children rather than adults, I'll listen, but that is a different crime, not a different venue or zone. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 575 Registered: 7-2005  |
It's like zoned fares for NJ transit trains...ugh. | ||
| The Notorious S.L.K. Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1194 Registered: 10-2005 |
LW- All due respect but your post (especially the info provided by the JPI) raises alot of questions and stands on shaky ground in regards to its claims. Unfortunately I am at work and can't get into it now. PLease allow me some time to find just that!  -SLK | ||
| J. Crohn Supporter Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 2520 Registered: 3-2003 |
The very nature of reality must suddenly have undergone a paradigm shift, as I have agreed with both of Kathleen's last two posts. That said... I have not seen the Thorne video. If Renee Pollack believed it intimated antisemitism or lionized racist attitudes on the part of African Americans toward others (yes, of course blacks can be racists), this should have been discussed in depth with the students who made the film and the faculty who assisted them. Perhaps the Board might even have been asked to rule on the appropriateness of screening the film at CHS, so that the Jewish principal could have taken herself out of the equation. I'll give Pollack this much: ethnic sensitivity cuts more than one way. In a high school with a substantial Arab population, it would have been more than a little provocative of Jewish students to produce and show a film celebrating Yom Ha'atzmaut (Israeli Independence Day) if it focused on the war heroism of Ariel Sharon. Can anyone imagine the reaction, in a school roughly half Muslim and half Jewish, to a film about Israeli independence that only showed Sharon in a positive light? Now: imagine a Muslim principal censoring that film and replacing it with something about the Holocaust. Personally, I suspect we need more sophisticated adults overseeing the adolescents who are grappling with complex subjects in our school district. A censorious instinct only persuades kids that the folks in charge are guarding their own turf, for their own reasons. It does not persuade them that those reasons are ethical. | ||
| LW Citizen Username: Lrw Post Number: 80 Registered: 10-2005 |
SLK--I would be very interested to read any evidence that you may possibly be able to present to refute the FACTS (not claims) that have been presented in these national studies. | ||
| sac Supporter Username: Sac Post Number: 3356 Registered: 5-2001 |
Glock - There is some logic in paying more to travel a longer distance, so I don't really think it's the same thing. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 580 Registered: 7-2005 |
Actually..if i remember correctly (i used to take the train to summit to go the Y for swim practice) The fair is LESS to go from SO to summit...but MORE to go from maplewood to summit. | ||
| Buzzsaw Citizen Username: Buzzsaw Post Number: 4436 Registered: 5-2001  |
That might have been a mistake that worked for you. Or something to do with peak time and non peak time? How do you feel something like that ties in here? | ||
| The Notorious S.L.K. Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1196 Registered: 10-2005 |
LW- Evidence will come with time, but common sense tells me something is fishy.... Facts? I don't see any hard numbers/data offered.... -SLK | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 581 Registered: 7-2005 |
Well they were given. | ||
| The Notorious S.L.K. Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1197 Registered: 10-2005 |
LW- I printed out the article from the JPI website, lets start there...but a quick scan has yet to provide me with many "facts" and those that are offered are skewed at best. SLK- | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2329 Registered: 5-2001 |
emphasis added While I disagree with most of your post and how you said it, I find the above the most distorted thing in it which is why I find it unlikely we'll ever be able to talk about racial matters or other matters together. I see the human in all people; you see the devil (if the devil doesn't agree with you). | ||
| aquaman Supporter Username: Aquaman Post Number: 846 Registered: 8-2001  |
Wendy, "which is why I find it unlikely we'll ever be able to talk about racial matters or other matters together. I see the human in all people; you see the devil (if the devil doesn't agree with you)" In the spirit of the seder shouldn't you reach out to Kathleen with kindness and a forgiving spirit? Kathleen is lashing out because she's frightened. She deserves our empathy, not our ire. Dr. Arthur Curry | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2330 Registered: 5-2001 |
Are you this Dr. Curry? If so, once you read the link it is is quite apropos of aspects of this thread - crack/cocaine penalty distinctions, I mean. | ||
| J. Crohn Supporter Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 2522 Registered: 3-2003 |
"In the spirit of the seder shouldn't you reach out to Kathleen with kindness and a forgiving spirit?" Wrong religion. The Pesach seder takes care to catalogue all the dire cosmic punishments that result from a stubborn pharaoh's refusal to release us from slavery. These culminate in the death of all first born Egyptians, after which G-d drowns our oppressors as they pursue us. Later we lounge around on pillows, get drunk, and invite all who are hungry to come and eat with us. BTW, Wendy, I overlooked that bit you excerpted from Kathleen's post. I shouldn't have. It is bulshit--and so the order of the universe is restored. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 582 Registered: 7-2005 |
whoa you drop the B/S-bomb on MOL but you wont say god? What's up with that?  | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2331 Registered: 5-2001 |
She didn't spell Bulls h i t either. But for very different reasons. | ||
| Stevef Citizen Username: Stevef Post Number: 197 Registered: 5-2005  |
God God God (testing) | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5328 Registered: 10-1999  |
I don't read too much into Aquaman's "Dr. Curry" signature, other than to observe that he knows his D.C. comics characters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquaman | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2334 Registered: 5-2001 |
Live and learn nohero, my hero. | ||
| LibraryLady.. Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3282 Registered: 5-2001  |
Glock- from Wikipedia...
However, there is no such prohibition against b u l l s h i t. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 584 Registered: 7-2005 |
woooooord  | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11193 Registered: 5-2001 |
I think a lot of the bull stuffing going on at CHS can best be summed up by asking; "Who is (are) the adult(s) here?". To be honest I am beginning to think it is the students. Farrakhan is an anti-semitic horse's arse. However, the way to refute him is to study him, not censor what high school students are allowed to see or hear. The Jewish community in general, and I think this is doubly true here in SOM, are firm believers in a comment allegedly made by Ben Franklin at the Continental Congress; "Gentlemen, if we don't hang together, we most assuredly will hang separately". Given the history of anti-semitism, I don't blame them. However, censorship is still censorship. Years ago Rockwell was allowed to march in Skokie. Seeing him make an arse out of himself was more effective in reputing his movement than censoring him ever would have been. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6021 Registered: 5-2001 |
LW, I agree with SLK about the Justice Policy website - but I am a cynic and do not take a lot of what's on the internet very seriously. However, I do agree with the data about drug use percentages across ethnicities: "National studies have found that whites, blacks and Hispanics use illegal drugs at similar rates, and also that most users obtain drugs from people with their own racial or ethnic background." For whatever reasons, marijuana is the drug of choice for whites, and it's penalties are very minor compared with crack, which is the drug of choice for many minorities, and is much more dangerous, addictive and violence inducing. Therefore the harsher penalties, and the large percentage of blacks in prison. My recommendation for them is to switch to pot. Or hash oil. Black opiated Columbian is very good for the soul. Just my opinion. | ||
| bklyntonj Citizen Username: Bklyntonj Post Number: 650 Registered: 7-2003 |
Mem, you are too much. You must be a ball at parties. Bob K, I've come to respect your opinion from your posts here on MOL. I could be wrong but I believe you and especially others are missing my point. I understand why many whites and Jews would not like Farrakhan's views and words but his positives truly outweigh his negatives. He has done more to improve the lives of black people than he has to negatively effect the lives of white or jewish people through the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad (not his own). Any spiritual or moral life teaches to concentrate on all of a person's deeds, not just one or some in particular. Look at God's messengers, Noah was a drunk, Mary Magdalene was a prostitute, Moses was a murderer, ... but are any of them remembered for their negative deeds? | ||
| LW Citizen Username: Lrw Post Number: 81 Registered: 10-2005 |
SLK--How do you find the facts to be skewed? Also, it's not rocket science, it's quite simple actually. Fact: the large majority of Blacks and Latinos are in jail for non-violent offenses, namely drug violations. Fact: of those convicted for drug offenses, they violated drug-free zones, which blanket inner cities. Fact: Inner cities, or urban areas tend to be popluated by Black and Latino residents. Therefore, drug-free zones are inherently discriminatory against Blacks and Latinos. My goal is not to persuade you into subscribing to my belief that the laws stemming from The War on Drugs are biased, because that's a serious thread drift. However, probably about a hundred posts back, someone questioned Glock on this matter when he alluded to it, and I believe that is where this stems from. If you'd like more cold, hard facts, I'm sure that you could write to some of our Assemblymen and/or Congressmen and ask them why they agree with the Commission's findings, and have passed a bill to change the laws. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6024 Registered: 5-2001 |
LW, How would you change the law? Legalize drugs? Or easier sentences for drug dealers and users - get them back on the streets quicker so we have more drug related crime? | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2858 Registered: 5-2004  |
Actually, that logic is not accurate. I don't disagree that many drug policies are ridiculous. However the logic that you put forth is incorrect. It is like saying: Mines typically employ poor to lower middle class people. Regulations that prevent mines from damaging the environment hurt mining companies. Therefore, those regulations are discriminatory to poor and lower middle class people. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11195 Registered: 5-2001 |
Bklyntonj, being, in my opinion anyway anti-semitic and a horse's •••, doesn't make it impossible for someone to make positive contributions to a community, or even a country. As pointed out many of the founders of our country owned slaves, yet made positive contributions to the overall improvement of mankind. Harry Truman used the "N" word for black people, yet he integrated the armed forces. He also used the "K" word for Jews, yet he supported the formation of Israel. I don't know anyone who is 100% good or 100% bad. | ||
| The Notorious S.L.K. Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1198 Registered: 10-2005 |
LW- Your (or JPI's) brush stroke is very, very broad and raises many legitimate questions. First, non-violent offenses is a totally different topic. I am talking strictly about drug free zones. Secondly, many whites are sitting in jail for the same offense. But back to the zones. Let's take Irvington, NJ. Does this city/town have drug-free zones around schools? Do all schools participate or just some? How many schools total are in Irvington? What is the racial % makeup of Irvington? I can go on and on...My point? Irvington is close to 80% minority (75% Black). If Irvington schools participate in drug free zones then how is this discrminatory against minorties? A Also, does this logic apply to all urban settings? How about NYC where there is a school literally every three-five blocks (cannot confirm at this point but sure seems like it). Are you trying to convince me that schools in the Upper East side don't participate in drug free zones but those in Bed Stuy do? And don't other factors contribute to creating drug free zones? Trouble spots/higher area of crimes? Other types of crimes (prostitution, etc.). And if these zones are not working to protect kids then don't you think we should fix it so it becomes effective instead of abloshing them outright? I would hope that you would expect your child's school to have such zones to protect them while you are not around. Or are you comfortable with drug dealers roaming school yards to sell their product? And no, what is offered are not facts. It is flimsy inductive logic at best. -SLK | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5331 Registered: 10-1999 |
The "drug free zones" are created under state law, they are not instituted by the municipalities. State law mandates the enhanced penalty for a drug offense within 1000 feet of a school. N.J.S.A. 2C:35-7. It also doesn't matter if the defendant even knew he was within 1000 feet of a school, or whether there are any students present at the time of the crime. "It shall be no defense to a prosecution for a violation of this section that the actor was unaware that the prohibited conduct took place while on or within 1,000 feet of any school property. Nor shall it be a defense to a prosecution under this section, or under any other provision of this title, that no juveniles were present on the school property at the time of the offense or that the school was not in session." There are also enhanced penalties for a drug offense taking place within 500 feet of a public housing facility, a public park, or a public building. N.J.S.A. 2C:35-7.1. | ||
| LW Citizen Username: Lrw Post Number: 82 Registered: 10-2005 |
MEM-Legalizing drugs is exactly what I would do!! I'll answer you seriously when I feel like you've at least read all my prior posts on this thread pertaining to the matter, because if you had, I don't think you'd ask such a silly question. RASTRO-Come again?!?! How about this logic instead, which is what you may or may not have meant: Poor white males typically work in mines; so virtually any mining accident will result in the injury or death of a poor white man. This does not make mining accidents discriminatory (however, I do think that if the George Bush's of the world worked in mines, there would be stiffer regulations in place; but that's an issue of classism). Unlike mines, drugs are used and sold by Blacks and whites at about the same rate. So if we have drug laws in place, they should be arresting and convicting Blacks and whites at about the same rate, right? |
