| Author | Message | ||
     Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 31 Registered: 5-2005 |
For all those who don't believe that institutional racism exists, ponder if you will, how would life be in this country if it did in fact exist. So, for the purpose of this conversation it is a given that it exists.( whether or not you believe that it does is a different conversation. ) Would there be leveling in schools? Would there be an achievement gap for which we would blame the students or their parents? Would there be an under representation of minorites in government, corporate hierarchies, pta's and hsa's? | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2339 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ponder if you will communities which are all white. Is there/has there been leveling in those schools? Is there/was there an achievement gap between those whose parents and grandparents were college educated and those who were not? Would there be an under representation of poorer people in those communities (who would likely have an over representation of holding at least two jobs in the family) holding volunteer positions which require time and flexible schedules? | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 593 Registered: 7-2005  |
Ugh. Answering a question with a question. How...unproductive. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1095 Registered: 10-2004  |
I wont speculate on those terms Sherlock. There IS institutional racism. It affects not only blacks but also latinos, asians, jews, irish, catholics, left handed lithuanians and much more. It is toughest on the community of color but it exists in many places. I think I agree with Wendys point that while it exists in fact the impact is much larger where there is classism. | ||
| The Notorious S.L.K. Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1205 Registered: 10-2005 |
Hoops- Classism? uh oh, another -ism....everyone duck... -SLK | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 32 Registered: 5-2005 |
Hoops, no question that it exists, no question that it impacts everyone. In fact studies have been done that show that it institutional racism, on a capitalist front, is counter productive and cost ineffective, and yet it exists, in fact thrives in the US of A. The structure of the question was to get past all of the it exists doesn't exist stuff. | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 33 Registered: 5-2005 |
If one is going to talk about racism in america, one cannot ignore the socio-economic componets as well. And heres the thing about if you are irish, lefthanded, jewish, eastern european...Until you speak, until you somehow communicate all of those specific things about your origin, you are seen as white. And in this country that comes with privilege and that comes at someone elses expense. if you are a person of color you don't have to communicate that, it is there for the world to see, and in some cases to make judgements about. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7222 Registered: 5-2001  |
If you consider the fact that racism does, in fact, have its roots in economic oppression, then you may come to the conclusion that racism is actually classism perpetuated on certain groups in different times in history. Racism is the lingering heritage of that oppression and suppression. Which accounts for the fact that some members of historically oppressed groups have been able to escape the "lower class". People of color started out more economically oppressed in the US and racism is one of the tools that keeps it that way. It's recent since women have started to escape class oppression by being able to hold positions of power and authority. There have been no Jewish and very few Catholic POTUSes. Etc., etc. Etc., etc. I might be so bold as to suggest that the best way to eradicate racism is to eradicate economic inequity. Uh oh. Someone is now going to call me a Communist. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6030 Registered: 5-2001  |
"And in this country that comes with privilege and that comes at someone elses expense." Can you explain what is meant by "at someone else's expense"? | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1097 Registered: 10-2004 |
Sherlock - yes and no. It is true that it is easier to spot a black man then a jewish man (as long as they are not orthodox) so there can be immediate racism - like you cant ride in the front of the bus etc. But there is also racism applied when looking for a job. You submit your resume and if the name says Tameeka Smith that might just get rejected outright. It might just be the same if it said David Rosenberg. (apologies to anyone with those actual names). Similar things could be said if you name was Ganesh Chiddawar or Ahmed Abdulla. Its easy to spot someone and eliminate them that way. You see the racism does not have to be overt to be racism. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 594 Registered: 7-2005 |
What he means by "At somebody elses expense" is White guy , less qualified gets job. Black guy, more qualified don't get job Black guy eat spam to get by. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6032 Registered: 5-2001 |
Glock, This happens way, way worse with men over women. I have seen it countless times over my long career span. But I have never see it happen between males of different races. But who cares what I see, I'm just a dumb woman. | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 34 Registered: 5-2005 |
Here's an example of privelege, although glock kinda put it in a nutshell. My teenage son goes to mall window shops, acts goofy, he's just a teenage white boy My friends son goes to the mall, gets watched by store clerks, securtiy, he's a threat. or another one, white guy driving on parkway, goes where he has to go black guy driving on parkway, better make sure all his lights work, better make sure his seatbelt is on, just might get pulled over anyway. the privilege is not having to factor that into your everyday experience. | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 35 Registered: 5-2005 |
At someone else's expense. the expense is quality of life, if you are white color doesn't matter, because if you are white it doesn't. You talk about race at the dinner table or at the water cooler as you choose or not. If you are a person of color, and you are interacting in this society, color matters, not that it may matter to people of color more, but because, their color matters to others, say those in positions of power. what ever that position may be. | ||
| Kibbegirl Citizen Username: Kibbegirl Post Number: 482 Registered: 5-2003 |
I can't tell you the number of times I've made an appointment with someone and after speaking with them on the phone numerous times, when we finally meet, they are well, shocked to say the least, that I am Black. Unfortunately, some stereotypes are just hard to shake. I guess I'm supposed to sound like Aunt Jemima over the phone. When we moved here, I must admit that I was pleasantly surprised by how many families do get along and genuinely like and respect each other. But, I'm a Beantown girl, and with that comes nasty memories of school riots, police beatings and random searches. It's such a blow to ones soul and ego to be disrespected because of the color of your skin. It just shatters your heart to know that a human being can treat another human being so inhumanely. When I was a young girl, I was visiting my family in Texas. We are of black & Hispanic ethnicity. I was walking across the street with my cousins who look more Hispanic than I do, and this old white guy stops at the stop sign and yells at us, "move it along a little faster you dumb ••• chicanos!" and then he threw something at us from out of his car. I will never forget that as long as I live. The humilation we all felt, silently. We never talked about it, but I'm sure we each remember that incident | ||
| The Notorious S.L.K. Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1209 Registered: 10-2005 |
Glock 17- Obviously you never heard of Affirmative Action... -SLK | ||
| The Notorious S.L.K. Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1210 Registered: 10-2005 |
Sherlock- "There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery--then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved." -Jesse Jackson | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13615 Registered: 1-2003  |
Sherlock, your questions made me wonder if you expect to find people who deny that racism exists or that it has some deep effects. You may not find many here, and I guess that's a good thing. Also, I will acknowledge that it is so engrained that it's hard to notice. I think you were implying that the levelling in the schools is sometimes done in a preferential way. I doubt anyone intends to abuse the system, but I'm sure it happens inadvertently. That doesn't absolve those involved; we have to work harder to root out racist beliefs. To do that, we have to acknowledge that all of us are likely to hold racist feelings that we have not admitted. Tonight, the Passover holiday begins. It retells the story of the Exodus, to escape slavery, which was based in racism. To be sure, it is on many people's minds. It is the Jews' duty to remember the story so vividly that we feel as if it was we, personally, who escaped from Egypt. I think levelling is probably a useful thing, as long as it is administered fairly. When people of varying abilities are mixed together, there can be synergy, but there can also be incomplete education, by catering to one sector or another. I see both sides of the debate. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 595 Registered: 7-2005 |
SLK- Obviously you're missing the point. We shouldn't need affirmative action. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4206 Registered: 12-2001  |
What is institutional racism as opposed to institutions consisting of people who bring along their various biases and prejudices. I always had the impression that MLK was fighting codified institutional racism whereas today, the challenge is for each person to see past their own biases and implement fair policies. The response to the Civil Rights Movement in the 60's was certainly more dangerous than today, but the racism the movement sought to overcome was much easier to identify as it was codified. | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1772 Registered: 5-2001 |
Greenetree,
I think that economic inequity is at the real root of the biggest hurdles we face today. Poor people don't get a fair shake whatever color they are. Glock - take your example:
A good starting place for a conversation about inequality in myriad situations. Make the first applicant any race, well-dressed and well spoken. The second applicant is a little more qualified on paper, but missing 2 teeth in the smile-line. Who will get the job? If it's any job working with the public, the applicant with missing teeth is unlikely to get the position. People who are poor don't have many options - poor people of all races are more likely to be the victims of violent crimes, more likely to die at work and more likely to suffer discrimination because of the circumstances or by-products of their poverty than people with options that money provides. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1946 Registered: 3-2004  |
nothing more entertaining than watching all of you well to do white folk work out your race guilt. i wonder how many of you supported the gang loitering ordinance. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13620 Registered: 1-2003 |
But we should also compare two men, both well groomed and well spoken. "The white man seems great, and the black guy, well, he's OK, but I'm not sure he'll fit into our culture. I have nothing against black people, and clearly he's a nice guy, but there's something different about him." Or the old boy network: "I know someone who worked at my last job. He was great, and he'd be great here, too." The problem with that system is that it works and is therefore self-perpetuating. Those outside the network don't even get their feet in the door. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13622 Registered: 1-2003 |
I accept race guilt as long as those in minorities accept some. Did you notice that I said we all have to take responsibility? Did you notice I questioned the proposed ordinances? At the township meeting in November, I stood up and said let's enforce existing laws before enacting any new ones. | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2340 Registered: 5-2001 |
Did anyone notice how we're talking about things that have nothing to do with the initial post? Surely you'll respect my religion even though I still have on my refrigerator an article written by a CHS teacher quite involved in racial issues now who discusses his feelings about the movie Blackhawk Down. In that News Record article, he discusses his sense of belonging to the other victims of the world and lists various nationalities who are or were victims, including Palestinians and excluding Israelis. Yeah, that made me feel real good about my Jewish son getting this teacher who seems to be an apologist for my people getting killed by terrorists. Thread drift? You betcha. Reality? Amen. You started this thread with a discussion of levels and other things that you thought indicative of institutional racism. You then morphed the discussion into something else. Well, I say there is still institutional antisemitism in Columbia. I have more proof for my theory than you do yours. Does that help things? No. Nor does your first post. Happy Passover Sherlock. | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1773 Registered: 5-2001 |
Libertarian,
You make a lot of assumptions and throw labels around that put the brakes on any fruitful discussion - how about moving the conversation forward? | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 597 Registered: 7-2005 |
Wendy...explain to me how Jews are hated at Columbia? I just got outta' a four year run there and had many Jewish friends (the majority of which I had been friends with since South Mountain.). Do explain, Wendy. BTW, Wendy... Israel has become what it most hated...an oppressive, military force that lords over the surrounding lands. | ||
| Montagnard Citizen Username: Montagnard Post Number: 1936 Registered: 6-2003  |
If you think about it, Africans captured in tribal wars and sold into slavery were negatively selected, i.e. the aggressive and clever folks did the capturing and the passive and less astute ended up as merchandise. In contrast, willing immigrants to America were positively selected for their ability and initiative. Many, such as the Italians, could also look back into their national history for strong images of power and prestige, even if they were at the bottom of the American social ladder. The present-day differences have deep roots in the past. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3407 Registered: 3-2004  |
By your strange logic, Montagnard, you could also say that Jews, Irish, Italians and others who had to emigrate were not aggressive or resourceful enough to survive at home, right? | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 36 Registered: 5-2005 |
the codified racism of the 60's was easy to see. And a lot, though not all is gone. Who was it who said you couldn't legislate hearts and minds? It was in said in regards to the civil rights bills and laws of the 60's. And in the end they were right. Somethings have changed. But I wonder how many gains we have really made in the hearts and mind area. You watch tv and everyone is stereo typed. When do we move on from that, the same for movies. The racism that exists today is much subtler and far more difficult to root out. It is so subtle that many good people, who do good things are also guilty of being racist, and they themselves don't know it. Beverly Tatum (forgive the sp.) said it best when she was here, racism is the smog we all breath. It effects us all. When it comes to racism you are either a part of the solution or you are part of the problem. You are either actively fighting racism or you are perpetuating it. Doing nothing is perpetuating it. So I guess all of us have to ask ourselves that question, and more importantly, answer it honestly, and sometimes the answer is going to make us uncomfortable. | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2005 |
the question being, are you part of the solution or part of the problem? | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3408 Registered: 3-2004 |
Nah, it's not subtle. I work in a wealthy, upper class school two days of the week, and a charter school with poor, black kids two other days in the week. You should the difference as I go from the white school to the black school and compare environments, resources, facilities, teacher training, libraries (the charter school has no library, the white school has a big one) etc. etc. You'll see pure racism, right here in beloved NJ. | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 38 Registered: 5-2005 |
agreed, there is absolutely in your face racism, and it is easy to see and get angry about and say, hey look at that (although there will always be people who blame the victim) But there is that really subtle stuff too. Like the leveling system here which is based on grades, something which is a combo objective and subjective thing, standardized test scores, objective and teacher reccommendation, completely subjective. Anything that has a subjective component is subject to the biases of the person making the judgement. And if you argue that someones bias got in the way of your childs proper placement in this district, who you are and what color you are and what income you have become a big part of the equation in regards to what kind of an outcome you are going to have. And that is a problem. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3409 Registered: 3-2004 |
You are absolutely right. | ||
| jersey Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 487 Registered: 1-2006  |
Does racism exist? Yes. Does institutionalized racism exist? That is a good question. I believe it exists as a disorganized hodge podge of racists and ignoramuses that people of color will definately meet in their life. Unfortunately, the rise of the underprivilaged African American in New Jersey will look something like this: Let's begin in Newark, where middle school student's don't know heroin is illegal because they see it being used by uncles and family friends openly. You move out of Newark in spite of cripplingly corrupt public schools and move to a mixed working class neighborhood in Bloomfield. My landlord there told me he keeps a gun in his car because of "the Blacks." He shared with me a conversation he had with a police officer, who said, "We'll keep an eye on them for you." My neighbor ruined an otherwise kind act of clearing our walk with a snow blower, by telling me he was glad to have some White people moving into the neighborhood. Then succeed out of Bloomfield to my old neighborhood in Montclair, where an African American family moved in to a Victorian and rented the attic to a single White mother with a biracial daughter and pulled their children from the public school because they were only developing friendships with other Black students who were from a lower economic neighborhood and were a "bad influence." A neighbor who was known to be crazy about other people's dogs running loose filed a complaint with the town about their dog. (He had done this for everyone's dog in the neighborhood, all White owners.) The family promptly moved out of Montclair, the historically integrated school system and community having failed them. The single White mother and her daughter stayed in the upstairs apartment. No there isn't a "Racism Institution" coordinating all of this, but give me a f-ing break. Just because a White person surrounds him or herself with non-racists doesn't mean a f-ing thing. J.B. | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2005 |
Institutional racism is distinguished from the bigotry or racial bias of individuals by the existence of systemic, pervasive and habitual policies and practices that have the effect of disadvantaging certain racial or ethnic groups. Race-based discrimination in housing, employment, education and bank lending (see redlining), for example, are all forms of institutional racism. Institutional racism is often functionally integrated. For those who don't know what Institutional racism is. And believe it is the elephant, if not a herd of elephants in the school rooms through out this district. It is in how leveling is done, it is in the way some teachers look at students and have lower expectations for some than others. It is what is in our two towns in the way our police operate and our merchants operate. It is in our government. It is why poor people of color are over represented in are armed services and under represented in postions of power, in our educational resources, our corporations, our governing bodies. And if we cannot all get to the point that we can acknowledge that it exists, we can never begin the work to eradicate it. } | ||
| jersey Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 491 Registered: 1-2006 |
I think the word "institutional" is inaccurate, and creates a point of argument. When an individual teacher is a racist, is that institutional? If an individual cop is a racist is that institutional? Studies about behavior in classrooms expose *social* predjudices. This has been observed about races and both male and female students. The school "system" will always reflect the prejudices our society has. But, I'm not sure that that IS institutionalized anything, especially when systems exist atempting to correct it. Is that your point? I'm sorry to argue semantics. J.B. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9209 Registered: 4-1997  |
What Sherlock is describing isn't state racism, or institutional racism as defined by the inventor of the term, Michel Foucault. Apartheid is state racism. In other words, state racism is racism that's codified in law. | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 40 Registered: 5-2005 |
Operative in the definition is "}The existence of systemic, pervasive and habitual policies and practices" systemic, meaning through out the system, pervasive, all through, habitual, a habit. It is not about codification, It is not about individuals. Indviduals are typically not even aware of what they are perpetuating because it is systemic, pervasive and habitual in nature. And I don't get what is so hard to get about this I really don't and that it is so hard, obviously, is in fact the problem. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9211 Registered: 4-1997 |
That's really not the definition, but why worry about the definition? Just address the issue.
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