| Author | Message | ||
     Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 41 Registered: 5-2005 |
Dave, the definition is straigt from wordiq, would you like to argue with them? | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 42 Registered: 5-2005 |
And look at the orginal post. you were not meant to argue the existance of institutional racism, for this conversaton it was to be a given. come on people. | ||
| jersey Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 492 Registered: 1-2006  |
Sherlock, I hope my post made clear that I know there is a problem. Although, I think it is a collection of problems. This "habit" is not institutionalized. It is disorganized at its most powerful outposts. We see the consequences of disorganized racism in the repetititve behavior that I think you oppose. However, I think the efforts to change "institutions" will fail to change the more profound and insulting ad hoc racism that will always exist as long as racists and ignoramuses continue to infect our society with incredibly memorable, confidence challenging "moments." This is not to say that we shouldn't seek to affect institutions to the extent that they may harbor racists and ignoramuses. And, I agree that no law or system should be allowed to exist that is racist. I think you are speaking to ideas when it is time to speak to realities. We agree on assessments and outcomes but I disagree with you about the fundamental solution. Why is it so difficult? Because it IS difficult. Is the fact that I don't think racism is organized a part of the problem? Only if I"m wrong. Because if I'm right, then you're wrong and your solution won't work. I know you don't want that. J.B. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9212 Registered: 4-1997  |
Well if wordiq says so they (it?) must be right. Who the heck is Michel Foucault anyway? | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4207 Registered: 12-2001  |
If there was no racism or race-based prejudice, then: 1. Would there be leveling in schools? Yes. 2. Would there be an achievement gap for which we would blame the students or their parents? Yes. Would there be an under representation of minorites in government, corporate hierarchies, pta's and hsa's? No. | ||
| The Notorious S.L.K. Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1211 Registered: 10-2005 |
Glock- I agree, lets get rid of AA right away. I just don't particualry care for some of your logic, especially the black man/white man comparisons. I can play the same game. One could argue the following: White guy , more qualified don't get job. Black guy, less qualified but gets job due to AA policies. or: White guy, less qualified and don't get job Black guy-highly qualified but appears got job due to AA policies While I understand the intent of AA policies, in either case someone gets hurt and in both cases the black guy gets hurt. In this day and age AA is actually hurting the Black guy more then helping. I apologize for the sort of thread drift but I am still trying to figure out how my powerful investment firm of an employer cannot base hiring decisions on a candidate's gender "identity" (what?), race or sexual orientation but then has as "Diversity Council" that establishes employee "networks" based on the same criteria: African-American Network Asian-American Network Gay and Lesbian Network Latino Network Women's Network I inquired with one Council Member (a friend, otherwise I wouldn't dare ask) about this and she told me that it doesn't matter anyways because any employee can join any of these groups. Well, if that is the case, then what is the point of setting up these networks in the first place? I guess there is an underlying understanding that I leave my SWM (Straight White Male)-ness at the front door everytime I arrive at work. Shouldn't others be expected to do the same do the same? Just sharing some thoughts... -SLK | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 349 Registered: 1-2006 |
Glock: You will not read in the New York Times about the CU Middle East Studies dept.'s anti-semitic tone, and anti-Israeli student actions. But, you could read the New York Sun, and find out on a day-to-day basis, when something new occurs. Or, for a catalog of ugly truths, go to Campus-Watch.org, and try out The Columbia Project section. jd | ||
| Kibbegirl Citizen Username: Kibbegirl Post Number: 485 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did anyone cath "Oprah" yesterday? She featured Bill & Melinda Gates. They have donated well over a billion $'s to American schools to improve the quality of learning in mainly black and latino areas. The conditions in some of these schools are deplorable. One white teacher in CA stated that if she were teaching in Beverly Hills, overcrowding and lack of books would never be an issue. My grandmother taught us a long time ago that "it all comes back to you" meaning that if these social issues aren't addressed head on, all that we fear most will meet you at your back door. Poverty and racism cannot be swept under the rug. Who among us living in "nice neighborhoods" have been victims of crime by neighboring Newark? It's at our back door and nothing is being done. It's shameful that Newark children cannot have outdoor recess because of gun violence in broad daylight. It's shameful that the drop out rate in Newark schools is escalating due to poor school conditions, lack of funds and over stressed teachers. Why can't all school systems be funded equally? This is not playing fairly. These children are being set up to fail even before one of them goes on their first job interview. And speaking of job interviews, I find it shameful as well that the gov't has to impose guidelines such as affirmative action that baby sit CEO's and insist that these companies play nice with minorities and give them as fair as a chance as their white counterparts. Does racism exist? My God you bet it does. | ||
| The Notorious S.L.K. Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1214 Registered: 10-2005 |
Kibbegirl- Are you sure they are the only reasons for dropping out of Newark schools are those you listed? I have a feeling the list is a quite longer. Where are the parents in regards to lack of books/unsafe recess conditions? -SLK | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6034 Registered: 5-2001  |
Kibbegirl - Exactly! Money talks. And there's lots of it here - only it's going to the wrong places, i.e., the insane Iraq war. Take a kid of any color and raise them in deplorable conditions and the endless spiral begins. Unfortunately, the majority of poor in places like Newark are black because of that spiral which began with slavery. We need a government that heals our own instead of taking our lives and our dollars to ridiculous places around the world. The conditions in Newark have confounded me my whole life - we live here in comparative luxury 15 minutes away from people that are living in hell holes. We need strong black leaders that need to lose the hatred and we need strong white leaders that listen and act. It's nuts. | ||
| The Notorious S.L.K. Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1216 Registered: 10-2005 |
Mem- What about all the money already spent on education? Although Newark isn't Brooklyn, my wife is a Social Worker and have been in all the worst schools in Brooklyn. She will be the first to tell you that the lack of money (if applicable) isn't the problem. -SLK | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6035 Registered: 5-2001 |
S.L.K. I apologize because I'm not that familar with the social sciences, but the money is not just needed in children's schools. It's needed for adult school classes like vocational/technical training, neighborhoods need to be cleaned up, drug and prison rehab, housing assistance, food, clothes, jobs need to be created, etc. The spiral need to be broken and most times poor people don't have the resources and power to do it themselves, so they get stuck in it. Don't you think the money spent in Iraq would have helped the poor people in Newark tremendously? It would create hope and a better life for them and Newark would be a different city. But I dream on. | ||
| Sauna Queen Citizen Username: Goodneighbor Post Number: 53 Registered: 4-2004 |
Institutional racism(IR) exists on a global level. Look at Sudan, Iraq, Rwanda, Palestine, Zimbabwe etc... What is unclear is whether this is one of the commodities we have exported and/or helped to maintain in other parts of the world. Sherlock Thank you for braving this topic. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 604 Registered: 7-2005  |
My apologies...I thought Wendy meant Columbia HS. | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2341 Registered: 5-2001 |
I did. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6037 Registered: 5-2001 |
Sauna, Of course it does. A huge concern is our own home. We should start here first, not abroad. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4210 Registered: 12-2001 |
"What is unclear is whether this is one of the commodities we have exported and/or helped to maintain in other parts of the world. Sherlock Thank you for braving this topic. " Excellent comments. And this I presume, is a variation on the theme that the world be perfect were it not for the evil United States? And I think Sherlock's greatest contribution to MOL, as seen in this thread, is to introduce the close-ended circle jerk thread whereby you introduce a topic AND tell participants in advance what their opinion ought to be. | ||
| Kibbegirl Citizen Username: Kibbegirl Post Number: 487 Registered: 5-2003 |
I think what mem is saying is true, that we should start here first before we go abroad with our tactics. Countries that have nothing to offer America are forgotten. If we can't make money abroad and/or rape their lands for our benefit, then we don't want to be bothered with them and we dont' help them. Denying education to Newark children, Sudanese children, and Appalachian children is putting a stressful burden on the WORLD, just not our community. The thought that we can only share power, wealth and knowledge with a chosen few is absurd. Education costs money! Teacher's, including those in S.O. and Maplewood, are underpaid. Many teachers from Marshall were walking picket lines around the school last year because there was no contract for them -- no security. Teachers! The lack of common sense in this country is mind boggling. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11207 Registered: 5-2001 |
It should be pointed out that the eight (?) poorest school districts in New Jersey are funded by state taxes. Because of this, Newark is able spends $4,000 or so more per student than we do. | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 43 Registered: 5-2005 |
Hey, for anyone who is paying attention, the basic suppostion of this thread was that, for this conversation, instituitional racism exists. And based on that suppostion, what is life like in these united states. It was stated that way so we could talk about that. And not argue over whether or not it exists. Because, in general, white america has a problem with even the possibility that it exists. And so I tried to eliminate, what I, rightly or wrongly, think is a waste of time. And tried to get to the nitty gritty. I am white, and I got hip to the fact that it exists a long time ago. I hear people talk, not in theory, but in the reality of their everyday experiences and what they have to go through. I get that there is a whole lot of stuff that is totally outside of white consiousness. This thread is a opportunity, for those who chose it, to step outside of their reality, and for others to share their reality. What I get is that in regards to race in america, I have a lot to learn. And that part of that process is about having a dialogue with others from different perspectives. To irradicate racism, in all its forms will require and honest dialogue about race. And sometimes it is going to be way uncomfortable, and sometimes it is going to be down right ugly. But I think it can be done. | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 44 Registered: 5-2005 |
And yeah, there is a classist element that has to be a part of the conversation. And if you have lived in some place like irvington or newark, in any part of this country you get, pretty damn quick, that things are set up to keep you there. And that just enough people get out to make it look like anybody can and if you don't there is something wrong with you. We love nothing so much in this country as blaming victims. just look at the katrina mess and see that. Hey, maybe another example of institutional racism? | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 606 Registered: 7-2005 |
So Wendy how is Columbia HS anti-semetic? I'd REALLY like to know... | ||
| bklyntonj Citizen Username: Bklyntonj Post Number: 656 Registered: 7-2003 |
Sherlock, do you think there was nothing involving race in regards to the response to Katrina? | ||
| Wendyn Supporter Username: Wendyn Post Number: 2930 Registered: 9-2002  |
What a stupid thread. Ok, to answer your questions Sherlock, assuming there is institutional racism: Would there be leveling in schools? No because schools would be segregated so everyone is either in the good white school or the sh*tty minority school. Would there be an achievement gap for which we would blame the students or their parents? No, because it is assumed that whites will achieve more than minorities so there are simply different goals of achievement. Would there be an under representation of minorites in government, corporate hierarchies, pta's and hsa's? No, because using the premise of institutional racism minorities do not need to be represented in government, corporations, or anywhere else. Everything is run by white men because they are smarter and can make better decisions than everyone else. Welcome to the 1930's, Sherlock. There is still a crapload of racism out there. Almost everyone I know, myself included, is racist or at bigoted in some way (keep in mind racism in and of itself only refers to four groups of peoples and doesn't address religion, gender or sexual orientation). But the country has slowly been eradicating "institutional" racism, whereby there are LAWS based on people's race. And for that matter the country has been eradicating "institutional" gender bias, religion bias, and much more slowly sexual orientation bias. If you have some suggestions on how to mitigate the PERSONAL racism in the schools that contributes to the acheivement gap and inequitable leveling I'd love to hear it. But simply assuming there IS "institutional racism" and posing rhetorical questions is going to lead nowhere. | ||
| dougw Citizen Username: Dougw Post Number: 820 Registered: 3-2005 |
I agree with Wendy. A stupid way to start a thread. If you want to talk about racsim just post a relevant question or idea. | ||
| The Notorious S.L.K. Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1221 Registered: 10-2005 |
Sherlock- I disagree. I think part of the problem is that we are hesitant in blaming the victim when warranted. -SLK | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 46 Registered: 5-2005 |
Bklyntonj, of course race was a factor in Katrina, but so was the fact that people were poor. And didn't we hear then, and still now from talking heads that the victims in that case should have gotten out. These people weren't on anyone's radar. Because it is hard to talk about poor people when you are cheerleading the economy and how great everything is. ANd I don't think anyone seriously believes that had it been a predominately white city that everything would have fallen apart. It hadn't in Florida, Rep. Gov. But it did in La. Dem. Gov. In schools where there is no leveling all children are held to the same high standard. To do that here would require proper training of teachers. we could continue to de-level on a year by year basis, last year 6th grade, next 7th etc. Lots of studies also support de-leveling and say that all children do better in a deleveled environment. And let's not even discuss that in this district 35% of students in Math level 4 are tutored. So their level placement is a direct effect of their parents being able to afford a tutor, which makes our district to a degree, institutionally bias towards those who have money. And some people think that that is ok, I don't. As soon as you start labeling people, as at CHS, for tracks, and the criteria is in any way subjective it is a problem. Also, at CHS for example. Once put in a track, level, it is virtually impossible to move up. Therefore those levels become instituittionalized. A lot of the problems in the district are in fact problems because they are not isolated events, but instituional. Such as race and the growing disparity between the haves and have-lesses in these two towns. | ||
| bklyntonj Citizen Username: Bklyntonj Post Number: 659 Registered: 7-2003 |
Very well said Sherlock. On all points. | ||
| anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 2661 Registered: 6-2002 |
Why would you ever blame a victim? Isn't a victim by definition free of guilt? Or do you mean, for instance, that if someone breaks into my house and robs me that I should have had a better security system? Does that excuse the criminal? (Wow, I just asked four questions!  ) | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4212 Registered: 12-2001 |
Puhleeze. If the Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Louisiana were proactive and on top of their jobs, the Katrina debacle wouldn't have happened and they would be poster children for how to handle a disaster. Jeb Bush of Florida is on top of the disaster game because Florida has been hit by a lot of hurricanes recently and the Andrew debacle is still fairly fresh in everybody's memory. It doesn't help anybody when good old-fashioned incompetence is repackaged as racism. | ||
| bklyntonj Citizen Username: Bklyntonj Post Number: 660 Registered: 7-2003 |
tjohn, to say the New Orleans Mayor & Governor were incompetent is one thing. To say the federal agencies involved, that also dealt with Hurricane Andrew, were incompetent is another. Why wasn't the federal relief more timely and efficient? The media bought it to the world for all to see. The world also saw how long it took us as a country to respond. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4214 Registered: 12-2001 |
The City of New Orleans and State of Louisiana were responsible for the immediate response to the disaster - the first few days. Federal assistance was needed to deal with the thousands of displaced people and extensive storm damage. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 609 Registered: 7-2005 |
OK Anon...here's a story that was in the news a few years ago A hispanic man was arrested for allegedly assaulting two white males outside of a bar. Upon further investigation it was found that the 'victims' were throwing racial slurs around..which the 'attacker' ignored. When one of the two white men touched the 'attacker', however...they were shocked to learn that he was a black belt in kung-fu...and he procided to put both of them out of comission. Don't be so hasty to believe every sob story a 'victim' throws around. | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1776 Registered: 5-2001 |
I think the lack of response had more to do with ignoring poor people then overt racism. But the chicken and egg question is why are the poorest of the poor people in and around New Orleans overwhelmingly black? Why did it take bodies piling up in the streets and people drowning in their own living rooms before we as a nation noticed? If a disaster hit Kentucky, you'd see poor whites dying and if Katrina hadn't happened, I imagine the emergency response would be equally as hackneyed and slow. Slightly moving off topic, but adds to the discussion: Last month when a woman was murdered and raped in NYC after leaving a bar alone around 2 am, the outrage was there, but also a question "what was she thinking drinking alone at 2 am?" raised again and again. If a man was murdered after a night on the town, I know that drinking alone at any time of day or night wouldn't be an issue. My point is that we all have to deal with unfairness and inequality, but at a certain point we have to get un-stuck and remember the past but work together to improve the future for all of us. Outrage is good if it's transformed into taking action and changing something. It's easy to blame, it's much harder to take a stand (sometimes against your friends) and fight a good fight. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 610 Registered: 7-2005 |
Well all three of the major dissapearances...um that girl in Aruba told her friends to go on ahead while she kept drinking...shell wash up on a beach somewhere um...that kid from temple was supposedly drunk and either fell of was pushed down a trash chute (at least thats what theyre saying now...no one knows where the body is) And another girl somewhere in the caribbean...same thing | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4216 Registered: 12-2001 |
Interesting, Lydia. But I will certainly be teaching my daughters that there are certain situations to avoid in the interests of reducing the likelihood of being a crime victim. | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1777 Registered: 5-2001 |
Glock - I was referring to the woman who was found dead, bound, gagged and wrapped in a sheet by the highway in NY - supposedly the bouncer did it. You dismiss drunk "girls" who are murdered - they deserve it? Asked for it? What's your point? No one deserves victimization. Whether you're driving while black, stumbling home from a tavern, or just in the wrong place at the obviously wrong time. Common sense can save many or most of us from a violent end, but the roots of common sense run deep. It makes sense for a woman to stay sober and not walk around in the wee hours - it's not fair, but men and women have different safety perameters. It also makes sense for a woman to take control of birth control - an unwanted pregnancy will cost the woman more physically whether she aborts or not - and a poor woman who has a baby without a spouse is guaranteed to live in poverty and her child will live in poverty too. In an ideal world, men would take responsibility for making babies too. My point is that racism, sexism and poverty-ism are intertwined with many preventable catalysts (fair or not) and we should focus on the preventable problems and keep in mind the systemic problems as the end project - cure the little things and the big things will eventually break down. | ||
| bklyntonj Citizen Username: Bklyntonj Post Number: 661 Registered: 7-2003 |
tjohn, show me where an immediate response = a few days. According to the city's guidelines (http://www.communityendowment.com/Katrina/Lessons%20from%20Katrina%20for%20trans portation%20planners.pdf), the plan failed because there was no ground transportation available to carry such a large amount of people to higher, drier ground. The drivers for these buses are volunteer drivers who obviously left town earlier. The other group in charge of supplying ground transportation is who? That's right, FEMA. Also, let's remember the disaster was caused by the breaking of the levy. Hurricane Katrina was dying down when the levy broke. Big difference between how to handle a hurricane and how to handle a levy breaking. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 611 Registered: 7-2005 |
Oh, Lydia...if you didn't notice I dismissed the drunk guy too. On our campus just recently a girl was walking back to her dorm...in the dark...by herself... she thankfully had pepper spray to use against her attacker! But the reality is...everyone tells women...don't walk by yourself...call for an escort...call a friend...etc etc...and they do it anyway...and bad stuff happens. That'd be like me being told "DOnt shoot yourself in the foot its going to injure you..." and then me doing that anyway | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1779 Registered: 5-2001 |
Glock -
Good advice - but the problem is that women can't walk home alone and men, even men who are littler then women can walk without the possibility they will be raped or murdered. Bad stuff happens - you tell women to take precautions (sexism) but racism has it's own island in your world. It's all the same Glock, and I think when you grow up you'll understand. Good luck - and I really mean that. |
