| Author | Message | ||
     Kibbegirl Citizen Username: Kibbegirl Post Number: 484 Registered: 5-2003 |
What do you guys think? http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/04/12/a_first_commu nion_dream_in_doubt/ | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1774 Registered: 5-2001 |
This story is a good example of modern medicine clashing with religious tradition. It gets tricky - adhere to the ancient traditions or proven science? Or...look for a loophole, but the problem with loopholes is they eat away at the solidarity of the Word. The latest Pope decreed that loopholes are not OK, so there's a dilemma, and the devil is (as always) in the details. | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 1143 Registered: 7-2004  |
It is not too harsh. I am a Catholic and believe in what the church is doing. As good Catholics we can only pretend that wheat is part of Jesus's body. I can't believe that, just for health reasons, they could play pretend with something else. I am just kidding. I am a Catholic (although at times like this I wish I weren't). The church's policies, more often than not, make me sick. You'd think they could make an exception because of health reasons. The ceremony is all symbolic! What does it matter if wheat is used or not!? Stupid rigid sh*t like this is why so many people have problems with the Catholic church. | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 1144 Registered: 7-2004 |
Just wanted to add this: I know religion can be a sore spot for many people, so before people start bashing me for saying something negative about the Catholic church, I just want everyone to know that I dislike all organized religions equally. | ||
| ken (the other one) Citizen Username: Ken Post Number: 393 Registered: 5-2001  |
If the Catholic Church can allow Catholics to eat corned beef on ST Patricks Day when it falls on Friday in Lent, why can't they allow the substitution of the rice wafer??? | ||
| cody Citizen Username: Cody Post Number: 982 Registered: 5-2001 |
Because too often the Church hierarchy values form over meaning. I often think that the Catholic church has turned into the Pharisees that Jesus was so at odds with in his ministry. | ||
| vermontgolfer Supporter Username: Vermontgolfer Post Number: 406 Registered: 12-2002 |
It's like substitute church on Saturday! | ||
| CLK Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 2175 Registered: 6-2002  |
Yeah, it's a bit harsh. As a Catholic (who goes to Mass even), I have a really hard time with some things that my Church teaches. It's ridiculous not to let this little girl participate in the Sacraments because her little body can't tolerate wheat or alcohol. Stuff like this is going to destroy the Church. | ||
| AES Citizen Username: Room_to_move Post Number: 36 Registered: 10-2005 |
http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/104-08122004-346938.html This happened in NJ a while back. I remembered because a good friend of mine from college (Catholic college) was diagnosed after we graduated. She was outraged, since she goes to mass weekly without receiving the host. There are so many issues driving Catholics away from the church...maybe wheat shouldn't be one of them? | ||
| Buzzsaw Citizen Username: Buzzsaw Post Number: 4448 Registered: 5-2001  |
I love God. But I have SO many questions. But, I don't mind waiting to ask. | ||
| Fruitcake Citizen Username: Fruitcake Post Number: 278 Registered: 9-2003 |
What do you expect? This is the same church that excommunicated Galileo for 400 years. The nice thing about America is that we have freedom of religion. There are plenty of other denominations that are perfectly willing to let a celiac sufferer use a rice cracker. | ||
| finnegan Supporter Username: Finnegan Post Number: 326 Registered: 6-2001 |
Last time we discussed this, many people found this article interesting: http://www.citizen-times.net/archive/article/?id=60192 It seems to me that alternatives are available and I'm unsure why this child's mother dismisses the low-gluten option, or why she'd want to go to the press with this when, from the article, both her pastor and the archdiocese seem to want to work with the family. Curious. | ||
| Joe R. Citizen Username: Ragnatela Post Number: 384 Registered: 6-2004 |
"The ceremony is all symbolic! What does it matter if wheat is used or not!? " Mayor: If you're Catholic, you know that the teaching of the Church is that Sacrament is not merely symbolic. Don't try that one on your Pastor! The Church still holds to the doctrine of transubstantiation. You may or may not believe it, but it's at the core of this issue for the Church. I agree that if the sacrament were merely symbolic, they could hand out animal crackers at Mass. The question I have is that the Anointing of the Sick is often done for people near death, who are incapable of ingesting food. This final Sacrament involves the Viatacum or the distribution of Communion to the sick and dying. What do they do to get around this. Perhaps merely touching it to the lips or mouth will do? Could the little girl tolerate that? I think there was a thread about this as recently as last year. Was there an outcome? | ||
| cody Citizen Username: Cody Post Number: 983 Registered: 5-2001 |
As a Catholic, I would ask that, if we truly believe in transubstantiation, why would the vehicle matter? If you accept that a wheat wafer can become the body of Christ, why not a rice wafer? or a piece of rye bread, for that matter? It's the 'angels dancing on the head of a pin' nit-picking nonsense again, I'm afraid. I'm sorry for this child and her family. | ||
| MichaelaM Citizen Username: Mayquene Post Number: 154 Registered: 1-2004  |
I was waiting for transubstantiaton to come up.  And it shouldn't matter. If you believe that bread becomes flesh, can't you believe rice cake does just as easily? But I'm not sure it's fair to say it's the same church that excommunicated Gallileo for 400 years. That's like saying I'm the same person who was once afraid of fireworks. People evolve, so does any institution. (Just not quickly enough.) For example, my parents said they were taught to do emergency baptisms of "pagan" babies in case of emergency? I'm not sure if they were serious ... | ||
| cody Citizen Username: Cody Post Number: 984 Registered: 5-2001 |
Yes, they were serious. I remember that from my Catholic grammar school in Brooklyn back in the 1950s. But it wasn't just "pagan babies", it was anyone who was not baptized and was in danger of death. The "pagan babies" were children in far-off mission areas. You saved up $5, gave it to the nun and you were given a certificate for a baby who now would be baptized. You got to pick the name, too. At least, that's how it worked from our end. Don't know if the baby ever was given the name that we chose. Some of the names were a bit much, you know? | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 2270 Registered: 7-2003 |
Did anyone even get to the bottom of the article or did you stop once you felt the church was doing something wrong? Shea, the archdiocesan spokesman, said Clifford was determined to find a solution. He offered to hold a special First Communion service for Victoria and her friends if she felt self-conscious about drinking the grape juice rather than taking a wafer, Shea said. ''They're going to find a way for that First Communion," he said. ''There's no question about that." | ||
| Fruitcake Citizen Username: Fruitcake Post Number: 279 Registered: 9-2003 |
Michaela, The similarity with Galileo’s era is that the Church still places more importance on its rules than on including everyone who wants to worship. | ||
| thegoodsgt Citizen Username: Thegoodsgt Post Number: 955 Registered: 2-2002  |
No, the policy is not too harsh. Every church or religion has rules that are based on certain principles or traditions. As human beings with free will, we are free to choose another church or religion if we don't like those rules. A firm believer will follow those rules. That's the essence of religion. That said, I'm outraged that the Church regularly grants a dispensation that allows Catholics to eat corned beef on St. Patricks Day when it falls on a Friday. However, I wouldn't equate that relatively minor accomodation with the significance of changing the nature of the Eurcharist. | ||
| finnegan Supporter Username: Finnegan Post Number: 327 Registered: 6-2001 |
cody asks - "As a Catholic, I would ask that, if we truly believe in transubstantiation, why would the vehicle matter?" The "vehicle" matters because of the origin of the sacrament of the Eucharist. Like all the sacraments, it has its roots in the gospel accounts of the life of Jesus. At the last supper (commemorated today, Holy Thursday, incidently) Jesus said, "Do this in memory of me." The celebration of the Eucharist in the liturgy is a remembrance and reenactment of Jesus's actions, which according to the teaching of the Church, makes Christ present in and through the Eucharist in the whole of the church (which is called both the Body of Chrsit and the People of God.) I just think it's interesting that certain church practices are criticized for not having a clear connection to our scriptural heritage, and yet others which do have such a connection, are criticised for not being flexible enough. Guess there's just a lot to criticize in religious practice. Joe R. I think you're exactly right about Viaticum as another possible model of a solution here - it is often a reception of communion with a very tiny piece of the host and/or just a single drop of wine in the mouth. While I don't think anybody really wants to see a Eucharistic Minister at the altar with an eye dropper of consecrated wine, I can't see why a very small piece of a low-gluten host wouldn't work for folks with gluten intolerance. And I think the 'pagan babies" conversation is conflating two different things. First, according to canon law, anyone can baptize a person in danger of death who wants to be baptized. (I'm pretty sure you don't even have to be Catholic yourself to perform an "emergency" baptism, but I'd have to look that up to confirm.) The whole concept of "pagan babies," on the other hand, always struck me as a marketing ploy to raise money for the missions. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11201 Registered: 5-2001 |
I think the amount of glutton someone can tolerate should be made by a Doctor, not a Priest, but then I do tend to be anti-clerical by nature. Some of the protestant denominations are big on asking "What would Jesus do?". Maybe the Catholic theologians should try the same approach. The Cathoic church was one of the first western religions to accept modern science and not view it as in conflict with doctrine. Is this still the case? One way or another I suspect the Church will work this out or the local Anglican church will have some new members. | ||
| LilLB Citizen Username: Lillb Post Number: 1490 Registered: 10-2002  |
This kind of thing doesn't surprise me at all. It does seem that they will find a way to accommodate this girl, but it shouldn't even be an "issue" and not all of the archdiocese are making the allowance for anything other than wheat. I was raised in the Catholic church and had parents who followed the doctrine unquestionably. So much so that when their children married outside of the Catholic church, they were advised by their priest not to attend the weddings. It was considered scandalous that they were not receiving the "sacrament" of marriage and their attendance at the ceremony would be considered an approval of such a thing. They actually didn't go to two of my sibling's weddings. Two other siblings did marry in the Catholic church, one of which refused at the ripe old age of 13 that she wouldn't under any circumstances be confirmed in this church. They only married in the Catholic church because it was important to her soon-to-be husband's family and he ran out and got himself confirmed somehow in the church before their ceremony. So, even though their marriage was in the Catholic church, it really was a scam as far as I could tell -- neither of them really considered themselves Catholic -- my parents went to their wedding simply because it was following the rules even though they knew there was no devotion to this faith by either of them. When they didn't attend the weddings of some of their children, it was extremely damaging to their relationship and incredibly hurtful. So, when I read stories like this, I guess I'm not really surprised, but I'm appalled that it would even be considered an issue. But, when people follow the ancient rules blindly, you end up with this nonsense. I do agree with the goodsrgt to some degree -- Everyone has a choice to leave. That's exactly what I did. It's just unfortunate though because I know from my own experience, the people I knew from the church are really good people who are devoted and faithful -- they want, like the faithful of any religion, to lead good lives and give back to others. It's just a shame, really. | ||
| cody Citizen Username: Cody Post Number: 985 Registered: 5-2001 |
The Last Supper was actually a Passover seder and the bread would have been unleaved bread. My understanding of Jesus's essential teachings were that what was in one's heart was more important than ritually observing laws without having love in one's heart. And THAT is what bothers me about today's church - people are, at times, ignoring the essential meaning because of practices that have become codified over time. | ||
| dougw Citizen Username: Dougw Post Number: 817 Registered: 3-2005 |
Mayor - Maybe the Church's policies make you sick beacuse you don't know what they are? Maybe you do not take the time and effort to understand them? For instance the Eucharist is not symbolic. This is one of the major tenants of the Catechism. Please don't represent youself as knowledgeable about the Catholic faith. You just confuse people. Cody - the bread used in Catholic churchs for Eucharist is also unleaved. | ||
| Peter Supporter Username: Peter Post Number: 239 Registered: 7-2004 |
So some people believe, and some religions teach, that God, the busiest entity in the entire Universe, really cares about wheat v. rice, what sort of hat we wear, whether we worship on a full stomach, our hairstyle, etc.? I think God would be happy if we all just behaved ourselves and treated each other nicely. Does God really have time to worry about what we eat and when? | ||
| dougw Citizen Username: Dougw Post Number: 818 Registered: 3-2005 |
From the article - Shea, the archdiocesan spokesman, said Clifford was determined to find a solution. He offered to hold a special First Communion service for Victoria and her friends if she felt self-conscious about drinking the grape juice rather than taking a wafer, Shea said. ''They're going to find a way for that First Communion," he said. ''There's no question about that." So what is the problem? | ||
| LilLB Citizen Username: Lillb Post Number: 1496 Registered: 10-2002 |
doug - Also from the article: "Some of the conflicts have been bruising. In 2001, the Boston Archdiocese told the family of a 5-year-old girl with celiac disease that when she took her First Communion, she could not substitute rice wafers for traditional communion wafers. Her family left the church and began practicing as Methodists." or this "In New Jersey, a bishop declared invalid the First Communion of a girl with celiac disease who took rice wafers instead of those containing gluten. Her mother unsuccessfully petitioned the Vatican to reverse the decision." The problem is that receiving the sacrament of Communion should not have been an issue for these people. It shouldn't have had to go that far. | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 1146 Registered: 7-2004 |
dougw, having gone through more than 20 years of Catholic education I have no problem calling myself more than knowledgeable on the subject. Yes, the church believes in transubstantiation. However, whether you believe or not, that bread you are eating is not actually turning into the body of Jesus.(Perhaps in your mind and heart, but certaintly not in terms of matter and atoms) It is a game of pretending. You can call it whatever you like, pretend or transubstantiation, but you cannot say that it is not a completely symbolic ceremony. And by the way, no one will ever truly know if the bread was made of wheat. You can make assumptions based on the Bible and Passover dinner, but wasn’t Jesus known for breaking Jewish laws. He even worked on the Sabbath! This girl should just become a martyr. Let the church give her the regular communion. Set up a hospital bed in the back. She can go right from her first communion to last rights. Two sacraments in one day, followed by a quick trip to heaven! (Unless of course the church counts this as suicide, then she would go straight to hell.) Also, doug, there are many areas of the Catholic religion that piss me off to no end. I will not go into these as I have no doubt that it will just create a terrible amount of yelling and name calling on this thread. But you can rest assured that I fully understand these policies and the fact that I know and understand these policies makes it much easier to disagree with them. | ||
| LilLB Citizen Username: Lillb Post Number: 1497 Registered: 10-2002 |
I know this is coming from a lapsed Christian, but, I don't think that when Jesus was demonstrating at the Last Supper that his body and blood are present in the bread and wine that he was trying to pass on to us that it's the wheat that's important or that it needs to be red v. white wine. If it was so important that we keep the bread EXACTLY the same, he would have passed out recipe cards to the disciples.... | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1720 Registered: 10-2004 |
God speaks to the Pope, did you guys forget that little fact? He can and has changed the rules. So it doesn't matter what Jesus said or what was implied in the New Testament. Listen to the church...and while you're at it don't forget to tithe. | ||
| CLK Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 2176 Registered: 6-2002 |
I read a lot of the thread about "Is it Kosher for Passover?" and I think this thread is much the same. There is one sect of ultra-Orthodox Jews who hold to the rule that if a food isn't mentioned in the Bible, it isn't Kosher. This treatment of the host is much the same - i.e., it has to be the SAME kind of grain as the grain that was used at the Last Supper (which we remember especially today btw!). What kind of grain was REALLY used in Jerusalem at that time? Does that cultivar even exist today? I understand and appreciate that the Church can feel free to make rules however it sees fit. However, I am free to disagree with those rules if I think they're dumb. And I think this rule is dumb. Perhaps that puts me in a state of willful sinfulness, but if so - so be it. Somebody asked what happens when you get the Last Rites (Extreme Unction). I got this sacrament when I was in the hospital with very bad gall stones. I believe there was oil or holy water, forget which and I really don't remember (I was pretty sick). No Communion though. The priest also wanted to give me Communion but I could not accept it as I couldn't take even a morsel of food or a drop of anything to drink until after I had my gall bladder out. I guess if I'd died (unlikely), I would have had to do a little extra time in Purgatory, eh? Though I doubt it - I can't see that God sets up traps like this for us. It just doesn't gel with the concept of a loving and compassionate God. I guess this is why my RC score on Belief-O-Matic was so low ... | ||
| Joe Citizen Username: Gonets Post Number: 1204 Registered: 2-2004 |
It would be a shame to go to Hell on a technicality. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11209 Registered: 5-2001 |
CLK, probably no more than 10,000 years. You coulda done that standing on your head. | ||
| dougw Citizen Username: Dougw Post Number: 819 Registered: 3-2005 |
Mayor you said "Yes, the church believes in transubstantiation." Exactly! And as you know in your 20 years of Catholic education the people are the Church. That is if you do not believe in transubstantiation you are not a Catholic. You also said "It is a game of pretending." I find this highly insulting. Do you really think religion is a game? ' - Hey let's go to mass and play christians. Wait I'll be the priest and I'll hear your confession. It's all just a game. Do you think Christ was just playing a game when he died for our sins? I am not forcing my religion on you. It is you who identifed youself as a Catholic. This is the faith. Take it or leave it. | ||
| CLK Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 2177 Registered: 6-2002 |
Bob K -  I guess I'm a weird Catholic. I believe in the concept of transubstantiation - it's not a symbol, but very powerful and very real - but I don't think that the kind of bread you use should matter. I used to go to home Masses in the 70s where we used home-made bread for the host. I read here on MOL that at some point this practice was called an "abomination" by the Pope or Cardinals or somebody. Obviously, even many in our clergy thought that this was OK before that, though. The one thing our hippy-priest didn't want was any kind of fruit or nuts in the bread. I didn't understand then why a few raisins would affect transubstantiation, and I understand even less why rice is no good but wheat is OK. What about spelt? It's related to wheat, and probably closer to what was used in those days. Triticale? Again, related. How close a relative must hte grain be for it to "count"? | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11210 Registered: 5-2001 |
Actually, your views are pretty much like most of my wife's family (including our kids) who are Catholic, but don't buy all the details. My father in law once said that religion has to many theologians and in the Catholic church too few clever priests to work around the BS. Was that lighting I just saw? | ||
| Matt Foley Citizen Username: Mattfoley Post Number: 633 Registered: 6-2004  |
I am a Catholic. Even I admit we are the "Glam Rock" of religeons. | ||
| dougw Citizen Username: Dougw Post Number: 821 Registered: 3-2005 |
Wheat also represents the good in parts of the Bible: Luke 3 15And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not; 16John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: 17Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. | ||
| Matt Foley Citizen Username: Mattfoley Post Number: 635 Registered: 6-2004 |
I will smote you good. | ||
| Joan Supporter Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 7253 Registered: 5-2001 |
Many people who are allegic to wheat are in fact allergic to a substance in wheat called gluten. There are gluten-free baked goods available. Why can't the Catholic Church permit the use of gluten-free wheat wafers? Would this help help soleve the problem? |
