| Author | Message | ||
     sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14901 Registered: 10-2001  |
I told you that I love the hat. This is like Go Dog Go. | ||
| Joanne G Citizen Username: Joanne Post Number: 25 Registered: 10-2004 |
I remember talking about the corn prohibition with a rabbi (a former agronomist) in Brisbane. I commented that Torah has an account of the menu for the first post-exodus seder, and says the people ate roasted corn. He said it is thought it was more like spelt, and an ancient form of grain that is no longer clearly known. Didn't sound like maize to me. So if you want to eat fresh corn on the cob, you could in theory go for it... | ||
| Dogbert Citizen Username: Dogbert Post Number: 58 Registered: 1-2006  |
I'm pretty sure corn didn't exist in the eastern hemisphere before being brought back by post-columbian explorers, so it couldn't have been at the first post-exodus seder | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13531 Registered: 1-2003  |
And it's hardly in season in the northern hemisphere at Passover time. We have it in late August and early September. It might be perfect for you in Howlong. Do you have it in your area? | ||
| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 3712 Registered: 5-2001  |
Passover tips: A)On the day of The Big Seder, don't perform random drug tests on your already pissed-off highschooler and then ask 'em to run off to the bathroom to fetch your Mylanta... 2)Of course, if you insist upon doing that, please be sure to lay in a good supply of Thorazine (Kosher for Passover, naturally.) Have a decent Pesach, y'all (as we say in South Orange)... -s. | ||
| Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 2266 Registered: 5-2001 |
I actually printed this out and showed it to my Chabad rabbi today (Soda - he *loved* the matzah font, and wants to know where to find it). His comments as follows: *baking powder is absolutely okay because the prohibition is on grains fermenting. Baking powder and potato flour are fine, baking powder and wheat flour are not. * The ashkenazi prohibition on kitniyot (rice/beans/corn etc) is about appearing like a grain expanding, and probably was due to a misunderstanding and lack of exposure to such foods in eastern Europe (Syrians and Turks eat these things everday - Poles and Litvaks grow up on noodles and potatoes and kreplach). However, that was the pronouncement at that time by the leading authorities, and they don't like to change rules - even though they can acknowledge that there is no halachic basis for it. *He took issue with Wendy's statement, pointing out that the Jews were commanded to eat matzah and the lamb at the seder (something else he mentioned but I forget...I guess the wine?) It made for a really interesting discussion! BTW - Joanne - as you grew up in the frum community in Australia I'm thinking you may know of him...Gutnick ring any bells? | ||
| Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 2267 Registered: 5-2001 |
P.S. There was sleet today? Yecch! | ||
| Joanne G Citizen Username: Joanne Post Number: 26 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hey - anyone else seen this? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=9505530539&rd=1&sspag re: corn - Rabbi Cohen did say it was a grain that is no longer recognised, that is designated by the ancient word. However my translation of Leviticus (Chap 13, v. 14) prohibits both parched and fresh corn for the Passover festival. It may be a different genus? is that the right word? anyway, a different variety to Indian maize but a similar family. Being the end of summer (well, actually we're in Autumn well and truly) we have heaps of fresh sweet corn available. Not that I'm gloating.  Heaps and heaps of good yummy fresh things to enjoy - picking our new fruit has been a challenge this year! We settled on a pomegranate. Tom, this area is great for specialty crops like stone fruit, grapes (for wine), olives, wheat and barley, grazing for beef and sheep and also a rich dairy region. We (well, the region does!) also farm fresh-water fish like trout althoguh the wild fishing is amazing. Also duck hunting season is on - we no longer hear the gunfire but when the season opened a couple of weeks ago it was like living in a war zone. | ||
| Joanne G Citizen Username: Joanne Post Number: 27 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hey Debby - which Gutnick is he? I grew up attending Shulim Gutnick's shul in Caulfield, but also did the New Year 'shul crawl' to Elwood to Chaim Gutnick's. Plus there's Joe Gutnick (of football fame) and heaps more...my unmarried name is Einhorn and he may have known my mum Renee if he attended the Adass Israel school. Also my brother Leslie was quite active in Or Hadash (?), the 'little' shul at Caulfield at one time. There's also the issue of molds and dust attracting to the various dried grains and fruits, which can affect the 'kosherness' of a food for Passover. Rabbi Cohen is actually of Yemeni ancestry (with 7 continuous recent generations in Jerusalem)and given that I have a bad tolerance of wheat and matzah ( a very small piece will peel membranes from my mouth), he said I am allowed to use bland rice crackers for the rest of Passover. However this also means all my stuff must be totally separated from everyone else's - totally tedious and impractical. I manage for most of the week without anything to spread stuff on. | ||
| Joanne G Citizen Username: Joanne Post Number: 28 Registered: 10-2004 |
Sorry - I just gotta answer this one (as I re-read the whole of Exodus today trying to find that other quote). *He took issue with Wendy's statement, pointing out that the Jews were commanded to eat matzah and the lamb at the seder (something else he mentioned but I forget...I guess the wine?) That other thing is bitter herbs (maror) | ||
| Dogbert Citizen Username: Dogbert Post Number: 59 Registered: 1-2006 |
>>*He took issue with Wendy's statement, pointing out that the Jews were commanded to eat matzah and the lamb at the seder (something else he mentioned but I forget...I guess the wine?) Marror (bitter herbs). A Chabad Rabbi didn't remember Pesach-Matzah-Marror? | ||
| Joanne G Citizen Username: Joanne Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2004 |
maybe it was Debby who didn't remember - she did say 'I forget' I was just thinking over the 'new world foods' thing (i.e. bananas). Considering very Orthodox Eastern European Jews tend to rely heavily on potatoes at this time of year, wouldn't that also present a problem? Potatoes are from the New World and were discovered about the same time as bananas, yes? Also not mentioned in the Bible? And isn't that a reason also to avoid broccoli and brussel sprouts?  | ||
| Dogbert Citizen Username: Dogbert Post Number: 60 Registered: 1-2006 |
>>And isn't that a reason also to avoid broccoli and brussel sprouts? Were Fox's U-Bet chocolate syrup or marshmallows mentioned in the bible? Gotta go re-read that book... Anyway, this is why I only eat manna on Pesach | ||
| Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 2268 Registered: 5-2001 |
It was definitely I who could not remember what he said  . Yes - it was maror. Joanne - It is Mendy Gutnick. He is quite young (in his mid to late 30's), and I believe the grandson of the founder. He is unusually intelligent and insightful, and is able to make all sorts of things relevant and accessible. I've really enjoyed knowing him. When I see him on Wednesday, I'll definitely ask about the Einhorns. | ||
| Joanne G Citizen Username: Joanne Post Number: 30 Registered: 10-2004 |
Dogbert, from my reading I think you're meant to eat manna during the counting of the Omer not during Pesach Debby, Mendy may be a little young - my credentials include being taught by Rabbi Abaranok (very patiently - I was a rebel and couldn't see why the boys got to do all the exciting Torah-learning stuff and we just got pretty stories and food-related stuff), and Mum was close friends with the Aron family. She was also a regular for many years at Shimon Cowan's Ohel Chana shiurim. Family was very very close friends with Ephraim Finch, and I did tahara duty for a couple of years while in Brisbane (no need for it here yet). Yes - a lot of different shuls there, but we got around!! Mendy may also be aware of the family Heidingsfield, who do outreach chabad work to rural Victoria - I'm the original link to Albury Wodonga. | ||
| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 3714 Registered: 5-2001 |
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| LibraryLady.. Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3274 Registered: 5-2001  |
Is it too late for me to say Joanne, meet my friend Wendy. Wendy, Joanne is my on-line buddie from Australia? I feel so proud of the shiduch I've made. Tee Hee! (also guilty as I have NO idea of what they are talking about. But it seems my Matzoh Charlote recipe would have been FINE without Mr. Sbenois' alteration.) | ||
| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 3716 Registered: 5-2001 |
...From a religous doctrine perspective, yeah, maybe. Of course, from a taster's point of view, not so much... -s. BTW: Did Sbenois enjoy "When Do We Eat" last night in Maplewood? | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14905 Registered: 10-2001 |
Yes. | ||
| Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 2269 Registered: 5-2001 |
www.tinyurl.com/j7mk8 | ||
| LibraryLady.. Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3275 Registered: 5-2001 |
Debby, that was great. What a clever idea. BTW, did u notice that neither you or Joanne live anywhere near Maplewood or South Orange. Maybe we should change the name of this board to WOL (WORLD online!)? | ||
| Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 2270 Registered: 5-2001 |
and we know the same people! Ah, Jewish Geography | ||
| J. Crohn Supporter Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 2513 Registered: 3-2003 |
"...then why would rice and corn be prohibited? ... It's my understanding that rice and corn have been prohibited in the past because they puff up when they are cooked, giving the appearance of leavening. The article didn't suggest that the Askenazi would condone eating rice and corn during Passover as a result of this "ruling"." I'd have to run downstairs to check the missive sent round by our shul, but I think corn syrup has now been ruled KFP? (Maybe the NYT article mentions this, I dunno.) My son (9) suffers hideously from bagel withdrawal during Pesach, so this is sort of a week of hell for him. This year he brought home from his indoctrination at Schechter all sorts of proscriptions on the proximity of meat and milk, which I had never bothered to segregate. We compromised: I will not designate separate dishes or utensils. We will not drop twenty grand on an (admittedly, much needed) upgrade of the kitchen, in order to make it capable of accommodating kashrut. We will not get too persnickety about consuming milk and chicken in one setting, as we know what we are cooking and there is no danger the stir fry might accidentally be a pot roast. We will not impose upon our sister an absence of butter on her pasta just because, at the other end of the table, we are having a hamburger. In return, Mommy will not mix cheese and cows, nor otherwise steep the flesh of calves in life-giving milk. (In fact, Mommy will not even purchase veal or foie gras, regardless of the fact that they are kosher; she figures veal was a rabbinical oversight and foie gras is just the sort of unnecessary cruelty G-d did not intend to permit.) Mommy already salts and rinses the meat and, out of paranoia about mad cow disease, only purchases kosher hamburger. Mommy does not bring pork into the house, unless it comes in accidentally on some supposedly chicken pad thai. Mommy purchases kosher chickens almost exclusively; they taste best. However, if Mommy occasionally wishes to cook something with tentacles on it, no one is allowed to complain. In return, Mommy will not raise an eyebrow when her nine year old orders shrimp shumai. (Daddy, being a heathen, does not care.) That brings us back to Pesach, the absence of bagels, and the surfeit of matzohs, which 9YO cannot stand. Tonight over dinner at Toro Loco he declared that tortilla chips should be kosher for Passover because they are not leavened, and therefore he is absolutely eating them this year. We wanted to know what had become of his penchant for kosher living. "I'm past that," he declared. "That's just too Orthodox for me." The past gets a vote, not a veto. | ||
| J. Crohn Supporter Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 2514 Registered: 3-2003 |
BTW, I've heard forever but flat-out don't buy that puffed-up-when-cooked Ashkenazi argument. Rice, beans, and other dried legumes--OK, maybe sort of. But corn? Nonsense. Not unless we're talking popcorn. And fresh peas, or fava beans, or any non-dried legume? No puffery there. My bet is, the ruling really stemmed from an attempt to prohibit all foods that could be used as bread-like staples or substitutes, or could be made into flour. Rice, corn, other grains, and many legumes fall into that category. Just another excessive case of building a fence to the Torah. | ||
| Joanne G Citizen Username: Joanne Post Number: 31 Registered: 10-2004 |
J. Crohn, the ruling on dried legumes and corn was because in the olden days before modern shipping it was bloody hard to get 'fresh' foods the way we eat them , by the end of your winter/beginnng of spring. These foods were dried and then did swell when rehydrated, with the possiblity of various yeasts having taken hold. (The Romans also forbade certain grains at the end of winter, because of ergot poisoning) My family has always held that fresh green beans, peas, string beans are OK. Debby, they say if you know 3 Jews in Australia you can be traced anywhere in the country - frightening, eh?!  LL, thank you for introducing me to your friends - I'm having a lovely time!! Lydia, another PL on its way, I just need time to think today as have a monstrous migraine and need to pace myself through the last of cleaning/cooking/work stuff. Jus two big sleeps to go, everyone! | ||
| Joanne G Citizen Username: Joanne Post Number: 32 Registered: 10-2004 |
Oh and JCroh, I have a Pesach recipe for bagels, if you want it.. | ||
| J. Crohn Supporter Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 2516 Registered: 3-2003 |
"My family has always held that fresh green beans, peas, string beans are OK." Eminently sensible! "Oh and JCroh, I have a Pesach recipe for bagels, if you want it." You know, the very thought terrifies me. (But thanks.) My mom has a recipe for something like bagels, or muffins, I forget. Chief ingredients: eggs and matzoh meal. We used to have them on Pesach when I was a kid and I recall them being sort of...interesting. Anyway, she's arriving today, recipe in tow, so we'll see if an offering can be created that will appease the 9YO. His sister, whose tastes are more adventurous, can be placated with a buttered matzoh. | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2312 Registered: 5-2001 |
I'm telling you the best way to celebrate Pesach is to have a seder with only canned food (no time for prep) go through the whole story standing up and walking around at times except when we recline to emulate the Egyptian royalty. The rest of the days of the feast of unleavened bread, have only fast food and always eat standing up to remind us of the haste of having to leave Egypt, which was the only home for many generations of Jews in that area. In reality, my family celebrates Pesach at the home of our wonderful Cantor and his delightful and amazing wife who cooks up a storm of scrumptious foods and because she's Israeli, we have the pleasure of Sephardic choices. Knowing I don't keep a Kosher home, my cantor's wife still trusts that I know and respect the rules so I'm asked to make and bring fruit salad. Every year I buy a new knife and use a colander bought just for Passover to rinse the fruit and use disposable cutting board sheets. I then put the fruit in new zip lock bags and she dumps them into a glass bowl for serving. I love this holiday because it gets everyone in touch with how observant they decide to be and we all have great discussions about it with no rancor that I can see. There's acceptance and humor (well except for Sbenois) - maybe we can apply it to the rest of MOL. Greater miracles have happened.... so they say. | ||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 1153 Registered: 5-2003 |
Passover, like all religious holidays, and, indeed, all religion, is just one more way of keeping women in a subservient position. If women are kept busy scrubbing the entire house, hunting down bits of leavening, packing and unpacking sets of dishes, keeping milk and meat serparate, visiting mikvahs, and on and on, they have neither the time nor the energy to challenge men for leadership positions. If women are made to feel that their bodies are unclean unless subjected to complicated rituals of cleansing, they will feel unworthy to challenge men. And if they are kept continually pregnant and occupied with the care of numerous small children, they will probably die prematurely and thus present no further problems to the men who are in power. I don't do religion. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13548 Registered: 1-2003 |
Fine, but please respect those who do. It is true that too much religious observance has served to keep women subservient. It is not true that this is the intention always. It does no good to presume to know what others' intentions are, and it's likely to antagonize people. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2824 Registered: 5-2004  |
My wife knows that I use religion to subjugate her. And she allows me to continue to believe I am succeeding. | ||
| J. Crohn Supporter Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 2517 Registered: 3-2003 |
Lizziecat, you'd enjoy a movie I just saw--"Kadosh"--by the well known Israeli filmmaker Amos Gitai. It apparently won some award at Cannes. It's the story of two sisters in an ultra-Orthodox enclave in Jerusalem. One is married and childless; her husband loves her but has been persuaded by his rabbi (and father) that the fact that they are childless means they are living in sin and must divorce. The other sister, who is unmarried and in love with a guy who left the group to join the army, gets married off to an unspeakable boor. Gitai's film is extremely critical of exactly the kinds of male-supremacist restrictions on women that you (and we all) reject. But it also acknowledges what most of us know: extremism is not what all religious people live with. Criticisms of religious extremism are legitimate. They are not apt criticisms of religious faith in general. (Now I must go vacuum, as my husband has already cleaned the bathrooms...) | ||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 1154 Registered: 5-2003 |
I am not disrespecting anyone, Tom. I am merely stating my opinion. | ||
| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 3725 Registered: 5-2001 |
Lizziecat: My personal observations run counter to your "Kosher = chains" opinion. The women I've met in my life who have run Kosher homes have been neither subjugated, relegated to second-class status in the family power structure, nor insignificant in their impact outside the home. Most have, in fact, been what is known as "balabustas", i.e., very strong (even dominant) figures in their families, secure and happy as adults, and accomplished in the domestic arts (of course) as well as in the outside world. Many have managerial careers, and even those who don't have impressed me with their overall competence and positive self-images. I'd say that your image of the typical Kosher housewife is in need of some updating with, perhaps, a dose of reality. BTW, I'm not avidly pro-religion myself, knowing how in many cultures it does have the very effects you cite. I just have a different personal life experience with the women operating Kosher homes. I know you'd never disrespect your sisters. -s. | ||
| r2boy Supporter Username: R2boy Post Number: 261 Registered: 5-2001 |
Wishing you all a Happy and Healthy Passover...Enjoy... | ||
| LibraryLady.. Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3283 Registered: 5-2001 |
A Zissen Pesach. A happy Passover to all my MOl friends and family. (Anyone want to stop in for some Matzoh Charlotte tonight? Before Sben posts it, you can tell where my home is by the flashing lights of all the ambulences rushing my guests off to St. Barnabas with food poisoning.  | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13595 Registered: 1-2003 |
If you're serious, actually, yes, I would like to sample some Matzoh Charlotte, even if it's the last thing I ever do. As it turns out, our only seder this year is tomorrow evening. | ||
| Joan Supporter Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 7249 Registered: 5-2001 |
A happy Passover everyone. | ||
| LibraryLady.. Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3284 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tom, I am disappointed. Here you share in my lovely Passover seder and partake in my holiday dessert and still, NO POST! How is all of MOL to know about my chicken soup with matzoh balls, pecan and horseradish encrusted salmon and MATZOH CHAROLTTE? Why aren't you telling? Trying to avoid a huge crowd for next year? I don't understand????  | ||
| J. Crohn Supporter Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 2525 Registered: 3-2003 |
Well, the pecan and horseradish encrusted salmon sounds quite intriguing. We did a second seder at our shul in Montclair this evening, and my son asked the rabbi why mixing milk and chicken in unkosher. For those who have never pondered these things, the prohibition in Leviticus is against boiling a kid in its mother's milk. One can understand why, especially in this era of factory farming, one might err on the side of caution and therefore avoid mixing any potentially indistinguishable ruminant's flesh with any milk. But chicken? In what universe do little chickens nurse from cows? Anyway: the rabbi explained to him that chicken used to be... PARVE, JUST LIKE FISH! It seems that some collection of rabbinical authorities, some time in the middle ages, ruled otherwise to avoid "confusion." I am going to have to research this further. It is obviously a mystery as deep as the mystery of Matzoh Charlotte. |
