| Author | Message | ||
     Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 49 Registered: 5-2005 |
Yes, and the fight against institutional racism is so much more difficult because white people, who will never really know all the varied, subtle and many ways of institutional racism rears it's ugly head, continue to deny or minimize it's existance or impact. White people, who can never know from personal experience continue to deny or minimize the personal experience of people of color. What is that about. and it has absolutely been demonstrated here on this thread. That is why you have to begin with the assumption that it exists and stop the debate of whether or not it is real. If it exists, we can then talk about it and how to irradicate it. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4226 Registered: 12-2001  |
I don't think you can have racism without intent. I can believe that we have some institutions that still contain practices put in place for racist or exclusionary reasons. In the case of the latter, you just need to keep chipping away at the problem. It certainly won't go away in one generation or two or three. In fact, I think ensuring fairness in a society is an unending labor. | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 50 Registered: 5-2005 |
you can absolutely have racism without intent. we know how the world works, we know how much racism there is out there, the really subtle stuff. If we are not actively working against it, all the time then we are saying, without intent, that it is ok. everyone needs to start fighting all the time and that fight begins with ourselves. It means questioning everything we do, questioning our motives. its a lot of work, but that is how it begins, its hard in the begining, becomes less so overtime and eventually it happens without intent. And then you have a world that is different. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11221 Registered: 5-2001 |
A lot of things are subtle and probably not intended. People tend to hire people who remind them of themselves. White guys hire white guys, black women hire black women, etc. Most of the time people don't even know they are doing it. I think this is the case with leveling as well. Most of the teachers are white and they subconsciously give white kids a break when they make their reccomendations. None (or very few) are classic racists in the Bull Connor tradition. However, a white kid who doesn't always do his homework is going to get a break, especially if the parents are active in the school and known to the teacher, while a black kid in the same boat probably isn't going to get the same consideration, especially if his parents aren't involved in the school, which is all to common here. With that said, sometimes a cigar is just a good smoke. In another thread someone mentioned as an African American not being comfortable at Syd's hot dog emporium at Millburn Mall. When I was in there last week one of the waitresses was black and about a third of the customers were as well. Everyone seemed to be getting along just fine. | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 53 Registered: 5-2005 |
And when you are an adult you can make these fine distinctions. But how about when you are a child. For an AA parent they look at their newborn and see all of the unlimited potential and innocence of a newborn. And part of the experience of being an AA parent is how old will my child be when they first get that someone treated them badly because of the color of thier skin? And how do you make something as irrational and plain stupid as racism understandable to a child? and who would want that burden? it is not one that anyone gets to choose for themselves but something that has been decided by and perpetuated by others. And sure there are lots of situations that will burst the innocence of childhood, large and small, but for white parents this is never one of them. And I think there might be a lot of things that are irrational and stupid that are a part of life as an AA in this country that are just not a part of life if you are white in this country and it's hard for whites to admit or accept that this is so. We therefore come up with wonderfully complex philosophical strutures to negate this reality. We would all move a lot closer to a solution in regards to race relations and further onto human being relations if we could just deal with the simple truth and accept that truth from the mouths of those who experience it. | ||
| jersey Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 500 Registered: 1-2006  |
Sherlock, Your argument seems to be if Racism exists at all, then Institutionalized Racism exists. And if I disagree, it's because I'm White and I'm in denial about Racism/Institutional Racism. It's circular logic. Racism exists, but many here are questioning this "Institutional Racism", I think, because the definition is a little fuzzy, and debatable. It's a semantic argument. Which you are responding to as if it were a pragmatic argument. J.B. | ||
| Flimbro Citizen Username: Flimbro Post Number: 31 Registered: 6-2005 |
Sherlock- Acknowledging the simple truth as you put it is a herculean effort. To do so involves acceptance of many ugly facts and some might assume that acceptance involves complicity. It takes a particularly strong human to make this effort and few individuals have that capacity. Holding on to the spoils of conquest is a full time job and unfortunately in many respects directly in conflict with "ensuring fairness in a society" as tjohn puts it. Bob K- Diluting racism by reducing it to a casual happenstance- "white guys hiring white guys" while conveniently sidestepping the natural progression of that idea which would be departments full of white guys hiring white guys and then companies full of white guys hiring white guys is disingenuous. Likewise, a casual observance that leads to suggesting that a black waitress and a handful of black customers is proof of anything other than the fact that black folks wait tables and eat hot dogs is insulting to anyone who actually experiences racism. The same goes for those who acknowledge the effects of racism and then suggest patience as a method of irradication. "Chipping" away at a disease that gnaws at your existence on a daily basis is no solution. You would certainly dismiss a physician who diagnosed your cancer with a directive to drink lots of water and try not to get worked up. Racism, institutional or codified or however else you choose to dress it up, is the systematic dehuminization of a living being because of the color of their skin and it is rampant in this country. It does not disappear because you know black millionaires or hot dog lovers. It was a crucial element in the construction of American society so quite naturally it evolves and changes and becomes more complex as we do. In general, depending on affluence, White America has always enjoyed the option of removing themselves from discomfort- moving to the suburbs when the city is no longer desirable. Then moving back into the city when the suburbs are no longer de rigeur. Putting the kids in private school when the high school is falling down. This economic mobility has also given some the intellectual freedom to construct false arguments against anything that you find uncomfortable- seemingly to dodge simple discourse. What is the plan- to run forever? Racism is intentional, it is not innocent or accidental, "fuzzy" or debatable and it is not a question of sematics- it is a disease of the mind. It exists and is a daily reality for millions of Americans. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4227 Registered: 12-2001 |
You have no choice but to constantly chip away at unequalness of opportunity in the United States or any society. We have seen that it won't go away overnight. Even destructive, violent revolutions such as the French, the Russian the the Chinese didn't actually remake society. Just another group crawled out on top. Homo sapiens is a tribal animal and probably always will be. That is why is has to be a never ending task to ensure equality of opportunity. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11222 Registered: 5-2001 |
Flimbro, very few of us white folks are still running around trying to, consciously at least, find a way to keep the black man down. A lot of racism in our society, and I am the last person to claim it doesn't exist, is as I posted above and is a lot harder to deal with than what the civil rights movement dealt with back in the 60s. The comment about Syd's was in direct response to a post here on MOL a few weeks ago. The poster said she was treated badly there, which probably happened. However, it is the sort of place where bad service happens all the time and her experience may be attributable to the place, not the race of the customer. As I said, sometimes a cigar is just a good smoke. | ||
| jersey Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 501 Registered: 1-2006 |
Flimbro, I noticed you don't use the phrase "institutional racism." You simply say, "racism." That was the semantic point I was making. I hope no one else thought I was saying that Racism is a matter of semantics; that's ridiculous. J.B. | ||
| Flimbro Citizen Username: Flimbro Post Number: 32 Registered: 6-2005 |
Jersey Boy I understand your point. I don't need the term "institutional" because I understand that all racism is institutional. I consider any attempt to deconstruct it as a diversion/distraction from the real issue. Racist acts are carried out by individuals but racism is sanctioned by institutions because the origin of racism lies with institutions. If racism was simply a personal belief held by people of a certain age or from a certain area, it would die out with enlightened generations. It hasn't because it was ingrained into the psyche of Americans hundreds of years ago and remains alive within institutions. It is passed down through generations who learn by example. If a teacher believes that it's OK to treat black students differently than whites he or she does so because there is no fear of disciplinary action. Why? Because such treatment is endorsed or at the very least ignored by and therefore condoned by the Bd. of Ed or more immediately the Principal. (I am not suggesting this takes place in schools in this city. I only use the example to make a point. Bob K- I'm confused as to why you'd respond here to a post in another thread from weeks ago if you didn't intend to make a point about racism. It certainly seemed that you were suggesting that bad treatment at Syd's couldn't possibly be due to racism since you were there and saw a black waitress and black patrons enjoying themselves. As far as sayings go- here's a new one. It's not as pithy as the cigar thing but here goes... Sometimes racism is just racism- not overreaction, not bad service, not just cops doing their job, not just one bad "egg", not something taken out of context, not a misunderstanding- just racism. | ||
| jersey Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 502 Registered: 1-2006 |
Flimbro, THANK YOU for stating what I think was Sherlock's point in starting this thread about "institutional racism." He has not been able to articulate it as well as you just did. Basically, the concept is that Racism is an American Institution, not that there exists a Racism Institute. Do I have that right? J.B. | ||
| Flimbro Citizen Username: Flimbro Post Number: 33 Registered: 6-2005 |
I think Sherlock is doing fine. I understood the point of the initial post and all of the ensuing posts in this thread. I thought the last entry was particularly on point with regard to the manufacturing of complex philosophical structures to explain away the real issue. No, I am not suggesting that there is a Racism Institute. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4228 Registered: 12-2001 |
And some remedies are??? | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 642 Registered: 7-2005  |
Why don't you provide a few suggestions? | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4230 Registered: 12-2001 |
What if I believe that processes currently in place will resolve imbalances over time? The onus is then on those who disagree with that assessment to suggest changes and new approaches. | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 54 Registered: 5-2005 |
I have already given you the suggestion that is the only way to where we have to go. Start with yourself. We always want to start with other people. But it starts with ourselves. Being scrupulously honest with yourself. That will give you plenty to do. Than start having converstions with others. Don't waste time trying to minimize what others are stating as their reality. | ||
| Spanish Inquisitor Citizen Username: Sinq Post Number: 57 Registered: 4-2004  |
Sherlock, All you seem to do is minimize what others are stating is their reality. | ||
| Flimbro Citizen Username: Flimbro Post Number: 34 Registered: 6-2005 |
tjohn Than that is what you believe and if you are someone who is not directly effected by racism on a daily basis- I'd say it was a great idea. It doesn't require any further thought on your part and no direct action. You remain disconnected and have the opportunity to simply wait and see how things pan out. However, if you were a person who realized that the effects of racism would eventually have an impact on your children or your grandchildren's education, your employment or your cherished property values you might assume a more proactive stance. If you were someone who realized that racism was not someone else's problem because that "someone else" lived next door to you, worked in your home or at your job or employed you or married into your family, you might assume that the issue merits at least some attention and maybe some action. Sherlock mentioned acknowledgement on an intellectual level. I think that's a good start. Many of the people posting on this thread agreed that racism might exist but doubted whether or not it was institutional. I thought this was interesting- not surprising, but interesting. I've read extremely cogent discourses on everything from American political history to eruvs on this board, so the idea that adults in the workplace really thought that modern racism was only dispensed sporadically by a few backwards thinking people got my attention. Bob K let me know (paraphrasing) that very few white folks are still running around trying to find ways of keeping the black man down- consciously at least. Now I don't know if he speaks for all white folks or just the ones on his block, but from his post I might deduce that the mode of racism that flourishes finds it's origin in white folks' subconscious. Now I'm pretty sure this was not what Bob K intended to say but it may lend more weight to Sherlock's assertion that acknowledgment is the first step. | ||
| sportsnut Citizen Username: Sportsnut Post Number: 2382 Registered: 10-2001  |
Sherlock where is your outrage over the treatment of those less attractive? Surely you know that people who are less attractive are less likely to get hired, they earn lower wages, they get convicted at higher rates and they serve longer prison sentences than do "attractive" people. You state that people should change who they are to eliminate institutional racism (I don't deny its existence) but really what you are asking is that human nature changes. I think that by doing so you trivialize what real racism is. Everyone has biases, everyone, to deny it is just lying to yourself. But not everyone is a "racist" just because they use their human nature. Let's not forget that it will take more than just 40 years to eliminate corporate and cultural racism. Unfortunately you can't wipe out one's nature to discriminate based on physical characteristics, regardless of how many generations. And to lay all of the blame at the feet of white people is disingenuous and weakens your argument. JMO | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4231 Registered: 12-2001 |
Flimbro, The tone of my posts not withstanding, I am interested to understand what additional remedial actions should be taken. I am going to discount Sherlock's idea which seems to be to assuage her white guilt by standing at the train station shouting, "I'm an intellectually dishonest white person who is a closet racist." Maybe I am too. But I do know that when I interview a black person for a job, I have an extra struggle with myself on the question of fairness and if I have to write a bad evaluation for a black person, I struggle with the fairness of it. I would much rather not hire a white person or write a bad review of a white person. | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 55 Registered: 5-2005 |
The biggest roadblock to irradicating racism is white people who know that they are not racist. I know I am not a racist, I also know that I benefit from white privelige, I know that sometimes I benefit from it. I know that before I can go change a single person or institution I have to change myself. What is so hard to get about that, and why do any of you feel that you don't need to change? I am speaking as a white person to white people, sharing my own process. There is work for AA's to do as well and they will or will not share their process, although, if one was to take this thread as an example, white people are far more interested in telling AA's how they got it wrong, or minimize or excuse what they are saying in regards to their experience so AA's not wanting to share their proces would be understandable. | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 56 Registered: 5-2005 |
I know that there are ways I might be perpetuating institutional racism that if I do the work I need to I wont be perpetuating it. Mea Culpa. It has to begin with the self. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4233 Registered: 12-2001 |
I agree with the tendency to assume the other guy has to change. At this point, however, I have no idea what I would change if, for example, I was running a corporation that was sincerely following EEO guidelines and was reaching out to minority groups in the recruiting process. Or closer to home, I really can't tell if leveling should be kept as is, modified or scrapped. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 364 Registered: 1-2006 |
Sherlockette: This White man doesn't want to read your sanctimonious, self-pitying, holier-than-thou, neurotic guilt trip anymore. You are levelled to your lowest common demoninator: boring. jd | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 365 Registered: 1-2006 |
Or is it denominator? Still boring. jd | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13715 Registered: 1-2003  |
Did this hit a raw nerve, Joel? No one dragged you in here (right?), yet you bothered coming in to make your non-contribution. How come? | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 57 Registered: 5-2005 |
Here is where it began for me, one day I was picking up food in the village and I thought, gee maplewood is going down hill, and then I thought to myself why do I think that ? I looked around and everything was the same as it had been, And then I got it. the difference was that instead of a bunch of white teenagers sitting on bank steps it was a bunch of black teenagers. So I looked at them again, they were doing just exactly what the white teenagers do. And I realized, whoa, How easy it is to have a knee jerk, preprogramed response to a visua stimuil. And I asked myself was that who I wanted to be. Answer, no. So I got that it is the every day little stuff that you have to watch out for, once you start that self examining stuff you see more stuff, the picture gets bigger and bigger. Its a process, and it can't begin outside yourself until you have taken care of your inside stuff. | ||
| Jim McLaughlin Citizen Username: Jmclaugh Post Number: 98 Registered: 3-2005 |
Sherlock, You said, "I know that before I can go change a single person or institution I have to change myself." I'm really interested in your process. I think you would say that the first step is acknowledging that institutional racism exists and the resulting benefits a white person receives from it. Is that right? What's next? Also, most people would agree that American Jews have historically been victims of "institutional racism?" It wasn't too long ago that they were restricted from most universities, corporate boardrooms, social clubs, etc. Although they still face prejudice today, most of the institutional barriers have been eliminated. So what lessons, if any, can we learn from the Jewish experience? Can it be applied to the African-American experience? and please everyone.... don't turn my question into a Jewish vs. African-American thing. | ||
| Jim McLaughlin Citizen Username: Jmclaugh Post Number: 99 Registered: 3-2005 |
Sherlock, Sorry. I missed your posting of 3:57pm. You answered, in part, the question I asked of you 10 minutes later. Do you think that the black teenager/white teenager sitting on the bank steps is an example of institutional racism or is it an example of racial prejudice? | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 368 Registered: 1-2006 |
To let you know there is more than one opinion, and that tired, old liberal White guilt is boring. jd | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 654 Registered: 7-2005 |
Jim the Jewish experience can never be related to the black experience. | ||
| Jim McLaughlin Citizen Username: Jmclaugh Post Number: 101 Registered: 3-2005 |
Why not Glock? | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 58 Registered: 5-2005 |
jim, I think that the way news is broadcast and how we are shown images of black men and black youth as gang members and violent criminals is institutional racism, I think that how I was responding to the teenagers, subconciuosly, was institutional, I think that how black children in general are treated in our school district is an outgrowth of all of this, and this is instititional and subliminal. We respond in ways we do not even think we respond, because we don't think about it. ANd the fact that we don't think about it is because we don't have to. We are white. Think about the term "color blind" isn't that a favorite of white liberals. I know it was one of mine. Until one day my children told me they weren't white. Now that blew my mind and that is another long story, but I realized that was in fact how they felt and rather than arguing that they were wrong I looked at what they were saying from the perspective that they were right. And I saw things differently. And one of the things I realized was that the only people who could be color blind were people for whom color didn't matter. And in this country that is white people. No one challenges us because of our color. We don't have to think about it. But if you are a person of color, no one let's you forget it. That is instituional. There is no question of americas past when it comes to its history in regards to anti-semitism. One might argue the Jewish americans became more assimilated than have AA's. THe question is why? What institutional barriers where there? Did jews come to this country against their free will? were their language, culture and families stripped from them? There are certainly things we can learn from everyone's experience of otherness. But when it comes to instituional racism I would argue that its roots go back to the "peculiar institution" of slavery. We got rid of many aspects of this institution and kept some. I would argue that it is white america's dirty little secret. We live in a country with one of the highest standards of living in the world. How then do you explain the millions of people living in poverty? how do you explain the disporportoinate ( forgive sp.) numbers of AA's, how do you explain the under representation of AA's and for that matter all people of color in the higher ranks of corporations and government? What are the vestiges of slavery that exist today, and if you spend time thinking about and coming to the problem with this type of perspective you will start to see things differently. It is why I started the post with the supposition that Institutional Racism exists. Because if you take that as a given and articulate what that looks like you begin to realize you have just described the world in which we live. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 655 Registered: 7-2005 |
The two will never be comparable becase Jewish people chose to come here, their experience here is the blink of an eye compared to the black experience, after coming here they were not enslaved and robbed of their culture/heritage/history. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4234 Registered: 12-2001 |
Still, what are some additional remedial solutions. Absent any new approaches, we are all just admiring the problem which is fine for those who think the current rate of progress is sufficient and not so fine for those who want to see more rapid progress. | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 59 Registered: 5-2005 |
I think we are articulating the problem. And I know that I have articulated a solution that begins with yourself. It is not glamorous and you can't stage a walk out around that but there it is. You can also look at your life and see what is in it or what isn't. You know what make up of this town looks like. When you look at your friends and your children's friends are you seeing a cross section? Are you reaching out and building relationships with people who are different than you are, not as a one time thing, but as a way to live? It is not a process that is always going to be comfortable, but it will be rewarding. Are you working against racism? how does that look for you. People always want big glamorous solutions, the truth is it isn't glamorus. And it means looking at how you make friends, who you choose to have in your life, and who you are willing to invite in. Imagine if everyone did that in a real and meaningful way? Then you would be allaying yourself with people who want this district to have one high standard of education for all children. And I think, there wouldn't be a need to have leveling because children would get what they need to succeed from the get go and we wouldn't be producing different outcomes of different children. You might be looking to make sure that one of the things you factored into the process of how you vote for this or that by saying does this help this board or elected office look more like the community I live in? and that is not about affirmative action, it is about seeking qualified candidates from all parts of our community and supporting them. That would change the world awfully fast I think. | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 60 Registered: 5-2005 |
From earlier in the thread, for those who are interested: Institutional racism is distinguished from the bigotry or racial bias of individuals by the existence of systemic, pervasive and habitual policies and practices that have the effect of disadvantaging certain racial or ethnic groups. Race-based discrimination in housing, employment, education and bank lending (see redlining), for example, are all forms of institutional racism. Institutional racism is often functionally integrated., I think this is a good definition for what I am talking about, lifted courtesy of Wordiq. | ||
| Aquaman Supporter Username: Aquaman Post Number: 860 Registered: 8-2001  |
Sherlock, "Race-based discrimination in housing, employment, education and bank lending (see redlining), for example, are all forms of institutional racism" We have integrated housing, employment, education and bank lending (I assume because we have integrated housing, employment and education) Where is the local institutional racism? Facts please. | ||
| Sherlock Citizen Username: Sherlock Post Number: 62 Registered: 5-2005 |
How about reading the thread and looking at the definition in the context of the on going conversation? |
