| Author | Message | ||
     LW Citizen Username: Lrw Post Number: 95 Registered: 10-2005 |
PHENIXRISING-I agree that it's funny how everyone is quick to call out Tawana Brawley, as if no white woman ever falsely accused a Black man of a crime. | ||
| MBJ Citizen Username: Mbj Post Number: 211 Registered: 10-2005 |
I believe Tawana Brawley was brought up to help counter the presumption of guilt that was contained in the initial post. Nothing funny about that at all. | ||
| wbwallflower Citizen Username: Wbwallflower Post Number: 252 Registered: 7-2005 |
What was said in the emails? I haven't been following the story closely and want to catch up. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4237 Registered: 12-2001  |
I would expect the people responsible for this case starting with the DA and ending with national figures such as Jesse Jackson would counsel people to wait for all of the facts before passing any judgements. At this point, I can find reasons to believe or not believe both the lacrosse team and the woman. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1543 Registered: 9-2004  |
MBJ, Help counter the presumption of guilt? Reading those responses, sounds like certain folks have their minds made-up! I'll just wait for the facts to come out. I'm just curious on what the DA has on these guys besides the victims identification. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1544 Registered: 9-2004 |
wbwallflower, I don't have the complete email, but here is something reported from CBS. A lacrosse player's e-mail rant about killing strippers and cutting their skin off in his Duke University dorm room has started a chain reaction resulting in his coach's resignation, the season's cancellation and an internal probe into the university's response to alleged violence by athletes. “On Wednesday, authorities unsealed documents stating that less than two hours after the alleged rape, McFadyen sent an e-mail saying he was planning an encore to "tonights (sic) show." The message, addressed "To whom it may concern," said, "however there will be no nudity." "I plan on killing the bitches as soon as the(y) walk in and proceeding to cut their skin off," wrote McFadyen, a 6-foot-6, 225-pound Atlantic Coast Conference honor roll player who was one of five Duke players from the exclusive Delbarton School in Morristown, N.J., adding in vulgar terms that he would find the act sexually satisfying. The e-mail was signed with McFadyen's jersey number, 41. McFadyen's name, however, does not match the three names the woman gave to police as those of her attackers. N.C. Central Chancellor James Ammons called the e-mail "very disturbing" and encouraged students to remain calm. | ||
| wbwallflower Citizen Username: Wbwallflower Post Number: 253 Registered: 7-2005 |
Thanks Pehnix. Wow.. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4746 Registered: 1-2004  |
Claflin- Here are some statements made by Devon's family and Devon and links to the full stories. I am trying to locate the oned from last night where it was said by Devon and his family the arrested players weren't even at the party. Devon was though. Hope this helps. From CNN: PHILLIPS: Well, he's the only black player on the Duke lacrosse team and the only one not asked for a DNA sample. Now the parents of an 18-year-old goalie, Devon Sherwood (ph), are standing behind his teammates and hailing the reported results of the DNA tests. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CHARLES SHERWOOD, FATHER: He always said all along the guys are innocent. And I said, "I want to certainly believe that." And so I think it's coming out that he was correct. I think there was a slight overreaction, but now that the DNA has come in and shown that the players are pretty much innocent of any physical wrongdoing, that's a good thing. And maybe the rest of the Durham community can find that out and maybe some peace will be restored down there. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/11/lol.03.html ------------------------------------------ The Arizona Republic Newspaper The family of Devon Sherwood, the team's only Black member, said the DNA results should have marked the end of the investigation of the team. "I'm just glad that that ordeal is over with and hopefully, as we progress with the case, it will show that all of the players will be exonerated ... of any wrongdoing at all," said Devon Sherwood's father, Chuck. http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0413duke0413.html ------------------------------------ WBOC 15 Delmarva's Sports Leader Dawn Sherwood, the mother of Duke's lacrosse team's only black player, 18-year-old goalie Devon Sherwood, said she's not worried about what experts think about the evidence. "You can find an expert to say whatever it is you want to say," she said. "It's a victory for the young men. I know they're not out of the woods, but I see it as a victory." http://www.wboc.com/Global/story.asp?S=4754874&nav=menu222_6 --------------------------------- Washingtonpost.com The family of Devon Sherwood, a freshman goalie and the team's only black member, said the DNA results should have marked the end of the investigation of the highly ranked team. The Blue Devils played for last year's national title and were considered a favorite this season before Duke canceled the season. "I'm just glad that that ordeal is over with and hopefully as we progress with the case, it will show that all of the players will be exonerated ... of any wrongdoing at all," said Devon Sherwood's father, Chuck, of Freeport, N.Y http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/12/AR2006041201771. html -------------------------------------- | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4747 Registered: 1-2004 |
Phen- The accuser also has a record... | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4748 Registered: 1-2004 |
From today's Star Ledger The alleged rape victim also has a criminal history. She pleaded guilty following a June 2002 inci dent to misdemeanor counts of lar ceny, speeding to elude arrest, as sault on a government official and driving while impaired. Here's a link to the full story: http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-6/1145425738132580.xml&coll=1 &thispage=3 | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11252 Registered: 5-2001 |
Certainly the defense lawyers are spinning like crazy here, pretty well I think. They have certainly inserted doubt about the case in the Great Court of Public Opinion. I suspect the truth is going to be somewhere in the middle. I remember seeing the player from Delbarton at a Columbia game a couple of years ago when both he and Little K were seniors. I think I have a picture of him and our son contesting a ball, with Little K sticking his stick in the Delbarton players face. It is a small world. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7296 Registered: 5-2001  |
Well, that obviously solves everything. I understand that there is a study coming out in next month's JAMA that shows a statistically significant correlation between past arrests for moving violations and future false accusations of rape. A follow-up study in June's edition shows no relationship between past violent episodes (like bias crime felony assaults) and future violent episodes (like rape). But, until I read it in the newspaper, I won't have all the hard core facts. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4750 Registered: 1-2004 |
Bob= Funny you mentioned CHS LAX's Team. According to the Star Ledger, even the CHS coach has a hard time believing the kid from Mendham did anything to the accuser. I was talking to someone earlier this morning whose son played LAX for Columbia not too long ago. You most likely would know this person. His dad, who I was talking to said this incident is the talk of the LAX community. "What do you think," I asked him? Having met a few of the Duke players over the years he says the feeling is they might be guilty of underage drinking, but not raping someone. I guess we all have to wait and see what happens. I doubt though the players will get a fair trial in Durham. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4751 Registered: 1-2004 |
Greenie- I'm not sure if you're serious or not.  | ||
| LW Citizen Username: Lrw Post Number: 96 Registered: 10-2005 |
Hilarious, GREENETREE. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1545 Registered: 9-2004 |
Certainly the defense lawyers are spinning like crazy here, pretty well I think. They have certainly inserted doubt about the case in the Great Court of Public Opinion. I suspect the truth is going to be somewhere in the middle. DITTO! The defense attorneys ARE trying this case in the media. I believe the DA has sealed indictments on the accused, so its a wait and see. JTA, Why are you listing the ONLY AA player quotes on the team? I believe the authorities interviewed ALL who were at that party. What ONE may have witness may differ from the rest. Before you start calling out Tawana Brawley, wait for the facts first. | ||
| Wendyn Supporter Username: Wendyn Post Number: 2970 Registered: 9-2002  |
Having met a few of the Duke players over the years he says the feeling is they might be guilty of underage drinking, but not raping someone. Well then, I guess they must be innocent. Because we all know that you can tell if someone is capable of rape based on their athletic ability and college status. Hope the woman is holding up ok and the perpetrator(s) are brought to justice. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1546 Registered: 9-2004 |
@ Greentree  | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6065 Registered: 5-2001  |
Thread drift: Phenix - I like the icon! | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1547 Registered: 9-2004 |
@ mem, Thanks! | ||
| combustion Citizen Username: Spontaneous Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2006 |
Years ago the victim was blamed. In an attempt to stop that horrible practice we've drifted too far in the other direction. Now the accused are considered guilty before they even get to trial. Not that I want to return to the "old days," but we should also try to remember that in this country our judicial system still abides innocent until proven guilty. If you want guilty until proven innocent, then move to Canada. | ||
| ess Citizen Username: Ess Post Number: 1779 Registered: 11-2001  |
The absence of DNA evidence does not automatically exonerate the entire team. There is certainly more here than meets the eye, particularly since the alleged victim presented with signs of sexual assault. Whether that alleged assault was from the Duke LAX team or someone else remains to be seen. The presence of a prior criminal record does not automatically mean that the alleged victim is lying this time. What is concrete is that offensive and obscene e-mail from "#41". That would seem to point to a crime being committed the night before. Unfortunately, this case is being played out in the media, and each little factoid or semi-factoid is taken as gospel. I am not coming down on any "side" in this matter. I am empathetic toward the accuser; however, I do think that women who falsely accuse rape do a severe injustice to women who are actually raped as the credibility of the accusations becomes minimized. My hope is that if a crime has been committed, the perpetrators get brought to justice and the victim heals. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1549 Registered: 9-2004 |
@ ess…DITTO! Read the entire file on this case at www.thesmokinggun.com. Some interesting notes: 1. Gave a fake name to set the appointment. 2. Lied about the number of people that were going to be there. 3. Tried to disguise the fact that they were lacrosse by saying they were track and baseball. | ||
| Eponymous Citizen Username: Eponymous Post Number: 182 Registered: 6-2004 |
Phenix, One of the accused admits to item 1 (giving a fake name), but not the others, which are reported by the woman accompanying the accuser, if I read the documents on Smoking Gun correctly. Part of the problem with the DNA evidence seems to be that the fake fingernails that were found at the site were allegedly used to scratch an attacker, yet provided no matching DNA (according to defense lawyers). Likewise I read the lack of DNA evidence to mean that they did find DNA on the accuser, but that it didn't match any of the accused. Alternatively it could be that they found no DNA on the accuser at all, but it strikes me as odd that they would then have asked for DNA samples from the players then, because they could always go to them and ask later when they found evidence. | ||
| LW Citizen Username: Lrw Post Number: 98 Registered: 10-2005 |
I believe that if the race, class, and schools of the players and the accuser were reversed, things would be very different right now. It wouldn't have taken over a month for charges to be brought; I don't even think that the police would've waited around for an indictment from the grand jury. Media portrayl would've been very different, and some of you would be singing a different tune. | ||
| MBJ Citizen Username: Mbj Post Number: 212 Registered: 10-2005 |
Since none of the things you post above are relevant to this case, your post is moot. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1126 Registered: 10-2004  |
LW - I disagree. No matter what the race of the accuser, this would have been a drawn out affair. It deals with Duke university and affluent students. Rape is not a slam dunk prosecution at any time. Take a look at the Kobe Bryant situation. That took months to get through. It seems to me that the key factor in these cases is not the race of the involved but rather the class. If these guys are guilty of rape, assault, or any other crime then I hope they get a just punishment, but by no means should there be any talk about race in regards to this incident. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1550 Registered: 9-2004 |
Hoops, It didn't take a month for Kobe to get arrested. And ummmm, Kobe paid dearly. And I'm no Kobe fan. While absorbing this Duke issue, both race and class seems to be playing out in Durham. | ||
| LW Citizen Username: Lrw Post Number: 100 Registered: 10-2005 |
This just in: MBJ was elected MOL Dictator last night. Congratulations! Hoops-While you may not agree that race is a factor in this, it seems like you do acknowledge that class is. Correct me if I'm wrong. Race is a hot topic of discussion in this case, and not just to me, look at some of the news stations, or listen to talk radio. I think a lot of people often feel that there are two justice systems in our society: one for whites, and one for Blacks (and other historically disenfranchised groups. Luckily for Kobe, he had a lot of money and status, so he wasn't treated like most Black men would have been if accused of the same crime. In the media the young woman has been vilified, often referring to her part-time job as an exotic dancer. How often did you hear people slandering Kobe's accuser, even after DNA tests discovered the semen of three other men inside of her? I'm just aware of the lynch mobs that have taken place over a mere accusation of Black men raping a white woman, or committing any other crime against a white person. I just feel had the roles been reversed, any Black men that fit the "profile" would've been rounded up and locked up, then the investigation would've begun. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1127 Registered: 10-2004 |
LW - I am no Kobe fan and I wont rehash all the vile things said about the woman in that case, but yes she was vilified. It happens in every rape case, let alone one with a high profile. There is no 'slander' here. The woman was an exotic dancer, part-time, full-time theres no difference. She needed a way to make money and had no problem with working at bachelor parties and such, so good for her. It doesnt make her anything more then that. I can not support you in this. I think there are a great many in the black community that wait for an incident to occur where there is a difference of races involved and that gets them mobilized for demonstrations of 'support'. There are some backwater places that might still think in the backwards way you described but I think in todays America these places are few and far between. I think that allegations of rape are very serious and I think prosecutors and police take these allegations very seriously. In days gone by the prosecutor would have simply refused to bring the case to the grandjury or the police would not have pressed charges. If that had been the case then I could see the need for demonstrations. Right now it appears that every party is doing their job. DNA samples were taken, the alledged victim id'd her alledged attackers and they were arrested and charged. What more could you want? There are no lynch mobs hanging black men and when there is a crime against a black man by such racists those men are duly hunted, arrested, tried and convicted. I challenge you to find out the numbers of lynchings that have occured in the past say 50 years and come back and report them. I doubt you will find any. You will find plenty of evidence of police brutality and plenty of evidence of black on black crime. This is not a racial issue, it is an issue that really belongs to the woman involved, the Duke students accused and the justice system. Racial speculation is not on point. The same exact happenings would be going on if the woman was white and the students were black. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1128 Registered: 10-2004 |
Phenix - sorry my reply above is to both you and LW. To one of your other issues about the length of time between arrest and accusation, I think the accuser in the Duke case had to look through pictures to identify her attackers and the police had to round them up. In Kobe's situation it was pretty clear who he was and where to find him. I dont think it would be legal for the cops to arrest all 43 players and ask her to pick one out. | ||
| LW Citizen Username: Lrw Post Number: 101 Registered: 10-2005 |
HOOPS-Challenge accepted! Does James Byrd count for starters? Remember the Central Park rape incident? Any young black men were suffice in that case, it didn't matter if they really did it. Good thing those innocent only had to rot in prison for several years before they were exonerated. How about Susan Smith(?) who drove her kids off into the water, and then watched as they drowned. She blamed it on a Black man, and the police and community were rounding up any Black suspects that fit her broad description. And a case a couple of years ago where a white man killed his pregnant wife and blamed it on a Black man, same public outcry. And I'll look for research on this, as well, all though you can find it in most Jet magazines every year, but dozens of Black men are still being set free from prisons because they were wrongfully accused of raping a white woman, decades ago. All I'm saying is when there's a white victim and a Black suspect, justice doesn't seem to work so blindly. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1129 Registered: 10-2004 |
Thanks LW. Yes James Byrd counts. Yet, that horrible murder was fully investigated and prosecuted. I asked about lynchings, not false accusations nor prosecutions of innocent people. I agree 100% that the central park case was a total miscarriage of justice. I cant call that a lynching though. As I remember it, the accusation was teenagers 'wilding'. It was a wrong place, wrong time issue for them coupled with a media frenzy. Susan Smith was obviously a deranged women but that doesnt equal what I asked either. I also would suspect that had the morons who screamed about black accusers in order to cover their own guilt, would have screams about a one armed man, then the cops would be rounding up one armed men. I think most law enforcement people would tend to look for whoever the accuser points the finger at. Still I appreciate what you are saying in regards to innocents being convicted unjustly and the bias that exists with regards to poor black men in particular, but it is not what I asked. | ||
| Claflin Kennerly Citizen Username: 2cents Post Number: 15 Registered: 3-2006 |
Hoops, Exactly how long do you think it took for the police to round up photos of the team and ask the alleged victim to identify them? I don't think this would take much longer than it took to arrest Kobe Bryant. Just my two cents... | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1130 Registered: 10-2004 |
Claflin - really, I don't know. I wasn't personally involved so I dont know the particulars and I don't think anyone else does either. My intent is not to let government, police, prosecutors, Duke or the lacrosse players off the hook. I just cant see that there is any problem with how this is being done. To me its not an issue that belongs in the public spotlight. Its an alleged crime, perhaps a rape, perhaps and assault that belongs in the court system and certainly not on my TV. | ||
| LW Citizen Username: Lrw Post Number: 105 Registered: 10-2005 |
Tomorrow I'll look for the article about the young man who was lynched two years ago in the Midwest, but for now, here's one: In 1981, KKK members in Alabama randomly picked out a nineteen-year-old black man, Michael Donald, and murdered him in retaliation for a jury's acquittal of a black man accused of murdering a police officer. | ||
| Claflin Kennerly Citizen Username: 2cents Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2006 |
Hoops - First of all, I am not trying to be rude at all. I am perfectly fine with agreeing to disagree, but I don't think any issue like this is something we should ignore. Yes, the court system should be the decision maker here, but the press is not wrong for keeping the rest of us U.S. citizens aware of the state of our country (black/white issues, crime issues, whatever). Sticking your head in the sand never solved a thing. I do agree that a lot of the times the press goes way too far, but I still would like to be aware of the world around me. So Hoops, you may need to turn off your TV, because there are plenty of us who want to keep our eyes wide open. | ||
| Claflin Kennerly Citizen Username: 2cents Post Number: 17 Registered: 3-2006 |
And if the young lady is lying, I still want to know that, too. I have a son and dangers such as being falsely accused of a crime are real. We need to be aware that there is still a lot of "ugly" out there in the world, no matter who ends up being the villain in this case. That is one thing we are sure of-there is a villain. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3428 Registered: 3-2004  |
Tell me something. How is an ATM receipt sufficient evidence that the guy wasn't there to rape this woman? He gave his pin number to someone else, and they used the ATM. And the picture of the girl, "smiling?" This is a defense? There are times when a grimace of pain can look like a smile. There's a lot of suspicious TV banter around this. | ||
| Gregor Samsa Citizen Username: Oldsctls67 Post Number: 499 Registered: 11-2002  |
Don't ATM's have security cameras? |
