| Author | Message | ||
     LW Citizen Username: Lrw Post Number: 116 Registered: 10-2005 |
Yes, HOOPS, I think that we have been able to maintain a very intelligent and healthy relationship in terms of exchanging our views, and I appreciate your thoughts and ideas, as well as the reception you have had of mine. | ||
| sportsnut Citizen Username: Sportsnut Post Number: 2383 Registered: 10-2001  |
Apparently they have a cab driver who reports picking up one of the alledged attackers then subsequently driving him to a Wachovia bank (with an ATM reciept), a restaurant then finally his dorm where his id card indicates his entry at the supposed time of the attack. Were there only LAX players at the house? Isn't it possible that some other party guests could have been in attendance and they could be responsible? I don't like the fact that the paper reported her as a "Stripper" as if that makes any difference. I'm not sure where I fall on this yet but it is a very unfortunate incident for all people of the community of Durham. Like others I'll wait to hear more facts before I rush to judgement. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3432 Registered: 3-2004  |
Just the Aunt: I appreciate your info. I merely add to Joe R.'s point (above) that even eight minutes would undoubtedly be enough time to commit an act of violence. | ||
| Joe R. Citizen Username: Ragnatela Post Number: 392 Registered: 6-2004 |
Sportsnut...the LAX players who gave statements said it was LAX only that night. Just the Aunt: I saw one picture with a watch in it, but the angle was so flat and resolution so fuzzy, I don't see how anyone could see the hands. Maybe there are other pictures not released, but that's all I saw. Tulip is right. Eight minutes is plenty of time to commit that crime. Seligmann isn't necessarily the master-mind or main participant. If he had any part in restaining her while the others assaulted her, he's on the hook. Where is the other kid's alibi? Tax driver says the other guy in the cab wasn't Finnerty. Defense says Finnerty wasn't there and offer as proof that he's not in any of the pictures (again, I've only seen 7 photos). Who can buy that? | ||
| Joe R. Citizen Username: Ragnatela Post Number: 393 Registered: 6-2004 |
Here's another oddity. Taxi driver says he picked Seligmann up a block and a half away from the house. Who calls a cab and then asks the driver to pick them up a short walk away from where they are? Could it be Seligmann and his side-kick were trying to get out of Dodge before someone called the cops and didn't want to risk being found in front of the house if the cops came before the cab? | ||
| ess Citizen Username: Ess Post Number: 1787 Registered: 11-2001  |
Maybe Finnerty took the pictures, and that is why he isn't in them? | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7329 Registered: 5-2001  |
Nope. They're innocent. I heard it on the news. | ||
| Jersey Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 551 Registered: 1-2006  |
I think a group of White men who chose to hire a stripper who was Black, (you always get to choose) makes race relevant. Why did they want a Black stripper? THAT makes it a racially motivated situation. They chose their victim's race. Sorry Hoops, I wish you were right, but my read on these men is something horrible, premeditated and Racist. Other crimes are simply human, but this one has some troubling details. J.B. | ||
| Gregor Samsa Citizen Username: Oldsctls67 Post Number: 501 Registered: 11-2002  |
JB-you don't always get to choose...You can request what you want, but often times what shows up at your door is somewhat different. Being a lacrosse player myself, I'd rather not go into how I know that...lol! | ||
| Lawman Citizen Username: Lawman Post Number: 11 Registered: 11-2005 |
Lot's of opinions. Very few facts. Why is this matter of interest to anyone who does not know the parties involved, does not live in that community and has no ties to Duke University? | ||
| Jersey Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 555 Registered: 1-2006 |
Sex, race, violence, class, law enforcment, our judicial system. Should be of no interest to anyone? Don't be silly. J.B. | ||
| Copperfield Citizen Username: Copperfield Post Number: 336 Registered: 1-2004 |
JoeR.: I wondered that too- why would they have the cab pick them up a few blocks from the party? But for all we know, the pick-up spot could have been a major intersection or there was a convenience store there they wanted to go to-- I'm sure if we're wondering, so is the DA, so we will have our answer soon enough. No one else read "Charlotte Simmons?" | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3433 Registered: 3-2004 |
Cabdriver is quoted and interviewed as saying that Seligmann and friend were saying, "She's just a stripper." "Yeah, but she'll still call the police." Damning, no? | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4759 Registered: 1-2004  |
Tulip Sorry then I thought you were posting to me. Thank God nothing like this has ever happened to me; but is eight minutes really enough time for three people to take their clothes off and rape someone? I watched and read what the cabdriver said. In the news account I saw I thought it was said the calling the police comment was because they had yelled racial slurs at her. They Lax players were offered Plea Deals, they turned them down. There are too many other things that don't make sense. It's hard to know what really happened; but based on what's been coming out, based on what has been said by both side and witnesses, if I was a member of the jury, I wouldn't be able to find the players guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Sportsnut- What's wrong with some of the papers and news stations calling her a 'stripper?' That's what she is, isn't it? Up until a story I read a little while ago,the papers were calling her an 'exotic dancer.' | ||
| Scully Citizen Username: Scully Post Number: 335 Registered: 8-2005 |
'but is eight minutes really enough time for three people to take their clothes off and rape someone? ' Uh, sure. At their age that would still leave a good five minutes to spare... | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7332 Registered: 5-2001 |
Thank God nothing like this has ever happened to me Obviously | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1558 Registered: 9-2004  |
Sportsnut- What's wrong with some of the papers and news stations calling her a 'stripper?' That's what she is, isn't it? Up until a story I read a little while ago,the papers were calling her an 'exotic dancer.' JTA, Stripper vs. exotic dancer? Think about it! Stripper sounds more damning to her character. nuff said. They were interviewing two of Reade’s friends on CNN and one of them said, “the reason the lacrosse players fled the scene quickly was because they were afraid her PIMP would come after them because they did not pay her in full.” PIMP? (Thought they called a service.) Now the stripper has a PIMP?  | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 541 Registered: 10-2005 |
The papers are actually being nice by using "stripper"....according to original reports, she was an escort, and this was the first "Stripping Only" endeavor she embarked.....by classifying her as a stripper (as they have done) rather than an Escort, they are being kind. And while 8 minutes is enough time to commit this crime (and any crime for that matter), that is not the point the Jury will consider....the point will be whether or not 8 minutes is enough un-accounted for time within the scope of this situation, for the accused act to have occurred. It's a tight window, and that coupled with 40+ witnesses (including the 2nd stripper who in spite of her TV appearence, will testify that she WITNESSED no act of rape/violence) vs. 1 witness, is going to be a tough hill to climb for the DA. My guess is that this case is dead in the water unless the DA has some truly damning evidence that has yet to surface. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7333 Registered: 5-2001 |
Oh. That's different. Prostitutes deserve to be raped. What's the difference? Did she ever say that she didn't get paid? Whether she's a pro or not, any woman who goes out dressed provocatively, drinks and hang out with strange men should expect this sort of thing. It's just the way men are. And Lord knows, if no one saw it, it couldn't have occured. Which, speaking of "Lord" has me curious about the billions of people who believe in god but have never actually seen this "person". | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4763 Registered: 1-2004 |
Sorry Phen. Maybe because I'm a woman I don't find anything 'exotic' about someone getting paid to dance while taking their clothes off for total strangers. I think it's very degrading. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4764 Registered: 1-2004 |
Smarty- I had started to post something along the line some of the newspapers in the past day or so have stopped using the term 'exotic dancer' replacing 'stripper. I also have just recently read accounts this was her first time dancing at a private party. Supposedly she had been acting as a one on one 'escort' the past few years. I'm wondering if this means she was just 'eye candy.' Something else that's been reported. The accuser had only met the other 'dancer' that night. In the original reports that women denied anything happened. Now her story has changed. On one of the message boards I was reading (not MOL) it's being said perhaps the accuser was angry because the team stiffed her and her partner on the payment they ere to get. That's where the comments about her only being and stripper, and but she's calling the police come from. Perhaps she picked out the two she did was because they were the ones who stiffed her? Or maybe they were the ones who made the racial slurs. Whatever happens, this whole mess is a no win situation. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1143 Registered: 10-2004  |
here is Phil Mushnicks column today in the post article here He pretty much has the same take on the situation as I do. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1559 Registered: 9-2004 |
I find it strange that someone took photos before, during and after the alleged rape victim danced for the lacrosse players. and this from the cabby; In an interview on MSNBC, Mostafa said he returned to the house later to pick up another customer. He said he remembered that person "said in a loud voice, 'She just a stripper."' Asked whether the second fare was complaining about the stripper or whether it appeared something bad had happened to her, Mostafa initially said he didn't "have any information about what was going on in the house." "When I look back, he look like he mad at the stripper. Or the stripper, she going to call the police and she just a stripper. ... It look to me like somebody get hurt. But what kind of harm, ... I have no idea." | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3434 Registered: 3-2004 |
Hoops, Re: that article, yes, but sadly, times might have changed since Muschnick was in school. Spend a few hours at any college, see how socially integrated the students are. Not that there aren't exceptions, but not so much. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1145 Registered: 10-2004 |
The issue is not social integration. It is as Mushnick put it, alcohol and sex. Couple that with a bit of gang-like behavior, teams can be as close knit, close minded and every bit as abusive as gangs. Using this incident as a rallying point for racism, classism or any other ism does ignore the facts of not only this case but many others that happen on college campuses all over the country every year. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3435 Registered: 3-2004 |
Right. The gang-like behavior is a facet of prejudice as well as social and psychological instability and vulnerability, as gangs tend to be homogeneous and exclusive in certain aspects, such as class or race. Stress over sexuality and abuse of alcohol enhance the irrational behavior on campus, and augment the already flowing hormones of this age group. Pardon me for mentioning MEAD, but Margaret Mead pointed to the rootlessness of American youth, because they have so much time to figure out who they are, and don't have any urgent need to grow up (to paraphrase her very roughly.) Combine anonymous sex, flowing booze, rootless adolescence, and don't forget the looming war that acts as a catalyst for all this, and you get aberrations such as the Duke incident and, indeed, the Aruba incident, and a lot of other confused kid incidents across the country. | ||
| Copperfield Citizen Username: Copperfield Post Number: 338 Registered: 1-2004 |
Could the stripper have been threatening to call the police because the guys didn't pay her the full fee? That- or the fear that her "pimp" might show up- could explain Seligmann's actions. We'll find out soon enough. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1560 Registered: 9-2004 |
Hoops, I can't get the article (I'm blocked from that site via my job). However, race did enter as an issue since the players did use racial slurs against these women. This is one quote from the other hired dancer. "Don't forget that they called me a damn n#*ger," she said. "She [the accuser] was passed out in the car. She doesn't know what she was called. I was called that. I can never forget that." The Associated Press A neighbor heard one of the boys yelling out, "Hey b----, thank your grandpa for my nice cotton shirt!" The neighbor, Jason Bissey, says that before the woman went back inside, he heard one of the partygoers repeating urgently, "Guys, let's go." He also says the party broke up within five minutes after the women left. from MSNBC | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1146 Registered: 10-2004 |
People make insulting references to race and stereotypes everyday but that doesnt make them racist, it makes them insensitive or a**holes but not racists. Get a group of athletes together and never let a reporter near them because the commentary will be straight from the gutter, no holds barred and base. No one claims these are 'nice' boys. I cant see this as racial in any way. {edited to remove the editorial comment on anothers point of view} | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 2276 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hoops is right. After having my own share of Fraternity parties, those girls aren’t treated real well. If they were white the guys would have come up with some other derogatory names. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1561 Registered: 9-2004 |
Hoops, I'm seeing this as an AA and the word N-word and references to the cotton fields is BEYOND being insensitive. These ARE STRAIGHT-UP racist comments! | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 2277 Registered: 7-2003 |
I disagree. They were just trying to demean the girls. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1562 Registered: 9-2004 |
We can agree to disagree. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4247 Registered: 12-2001  |
This racial stuff is irrelevant. The only question is this. Did the guys on the lacrosse team rape or otherwise sexually abuse this woman? It shouldn't matter is she is a whore or a nun. Rape is rape. I don't see why I should care about the motive assuming the crime occurred. If N.C. has a hate-crimes law that applies in this case, maybe the racial stuff is relevant, but the primary issue to to bust the guys if, in fact, they raped this woman. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1147 Registered: 10-2004 |
Phenix - I agree, they are racist comments. That doesnt make them racists nor does it make it a case of bias. There is a strict double standard, and its been discussed and discussed some more where these comments are used. The N word is unfortunately being bandied about with quite a few different meanings in the AA community as you well know. Sometimes it is used as a straight up insult and sometimes it is used as a warm greeting. Any HipHop fan is hearing this word over and over and over again. The word doesnt belong to AA's alone anymore (flame away LW, Flimbro and whoever else wants to discuss this). I cant tell you the number of times that I have been called the N word, white boy, rabbit, cracker, and a whole slew of other more choice words by my friends and enemies alike. The young culture, the hip hop culture has co-opted this terminology and no matter how much you want to put the N word in someones mouth and make that person a racist based on it, it just doesnt fly. Was it a racial comment meant to demean and hurt? Absolutely. Was it a comment by a racist? Not necessarily. I think after this post I should probably hide somewhere, but go ahead everyone let me know about myself | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 1471 Registered: 4-2004  |
The press will slant anyone's view of this incident if you allow it. The skewed angles are already getting airplay, from "Stripper/whore accuses scholar/athletes of misdeeds" to "Racist jocks rape single mother/ exotic dancer trying to put herself through college". Press coverage can only obscure the truth in favor of what tantalizes. Me and the boys- Survivor is an accurate description of people who have been raped; many are beaten and/or tortured, and some are killed. Their psychological state is often such that "victim" portrays them as helpless and submissive while "survivor" affirms that they have emerged from the event and are able to move forward, particularly with the painful process of seeking help and reporting to police. It may seem like semantics to some, but in the treatment of those attacked it can be an important distinction. This is from professional sexual assault counselors, whose work I'm familiar with and greatly admire. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3436 Registered: 3-2004 |
Hoops, I have found your posts convincing in the past, this time, not. Racist comments presented in a demeaning and derogatary way indicate racist feelings, indicate racism. Period. I fear the fact that some on this board are revealing that the "insensitivity" and general stupidity of racism isn't dead, even above the Mason Dixon Line, and all that marching and praying and singing and lawmaking in the sixties and seventies was for nothin'. Period. You've heard the old phrase, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...etc. I am not accusing YOU of racism, just of rationalizing it and denying its existence. | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 2282 Registered: 7-2003 |
I’m still defending Hoops here. A girl just took her clothes of and gyrated about the room for money. Quick, come up with an insult. AA girl = N** Latino = S** Excreta Excreta These guys were drinking at a party, their mental capacity was not 100% | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3437 Registered: 3-2004 |
They are not children any more. They are supposed to be held legally accountable for their behavior. Drunk or not. So far, we have evidence that they committed verbal harrassment, if not verbal assault. They are already on the road to criminality. Let's let the lawyers and the evidence do their work before we try either side on MOL. That's why we have trials, juries, and a Constitution. | ||
| Royce Citizen Username: Royce Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2004 |
Someone needs to convince the other dancer she's not helping the accuser by speaking to the press |
