| Author | Message | ||
     Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 352 Registered: 10-2005  |
This might do better in Please Help, but here goes: I was raised athiest. Sort of "ruined" stuff for me--or enlightened me, depending on how I look at things. Both my parents were raised catholic, my stepdad jewish, now no one practices. Here's my dilemma: I'm not sure I want to raise my kids without faith. Problem is, I have serious faith issues, and feel disingenuoustalking about God, an afterlife, etc. I don't want to lie, but I also don't want to rule things out. My daughter, 5, wants to "go to church". Mainly, I think, because she thinks it's pretty. Should I take her. Should I "fake it 'till I make it?" Got opinions on the matter? | ||
| C Bataille Citizen Username: Nakaille Post Number: 2585 Registered: 5-2001 |
Yeah, take a serious look at Unitarian Universalism. Here's the one we attend http://ucsummit.org. We felt the need for some sort of structure around values as well and this really fit the bill for us. There's a terrific Sunday School program, too. | ||
| Ligeti Man Meat Citizen Username: Ligeti Post Number: 652 Registered: 7-2002  |
Seems to me, no matter what a parent's beliefs are, a child deserves -- even needs -- the opportunity to choose faith. I don't see how you give them this chance without taking them to church. There's plenty of time for them to reject it down the road. I just think kids are wired to want to believe in God, the afterlife, heaven, etc. Faking it is a small price to pay. Think about how many other things you have to fake in front of your kids -- like eating broccoli? | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1269 Registered: 10-2004  |
Morality and ethics have nothing to do with religion. Teaching your children to be 'good' people has nothing to do with faith. Some people need to believe in something larger then life in order to make sense of the world. Conforming to societal pressure to attend 'church' will most certainly confuse her since you do not believe yourself. Be true to your own beliefs. If you are an atheist, then dont be a hypocrit and take your child to church. If you believe in god but not organized religion then explain yourself to her, she will understand in her own way. When she is old enough she can make her own choices. | ||
| algebra2 Supporter Username: Algebra2 Post Number: 4062 Registered: 5-2001  |
My issue with UU is that the churches I felt were not about God, just sort of liberal do-good, ant-war places. Which is fine, but I want somewhere to celebrate God, not politics. Does that make sense? My son is being raised by an Episcopalian and a Jew and he knows a bit about both. He is very into God and when I spoke to UU people they told me services were not much about God -- I never went to a service though so please, correct me if I am wrong about this! | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 1508 Registered: 4-2004  |
Shanabana- Talk with your spouse (if applicable) and ask your daughter what has piqued her interest in church. Maybe choose some close friends or family who practice religion (but not so zealously that they would impose their views) and ask to be their guests. Maybe explore a few denominations, such as those you were exposed to plus a new one such as C. Bataille posted. She may lose interest after the first one or she may want to explore further; talk about it each step of the way. I was also raised as a Catholic, and I've had my moments of doubt throughout my life. But I found that I wanted to expose my children to religion because it gave them comfort and taught them to think beyond the everyday world. It also has provided a strong moral component and a keen sense of right and wrong. They will ultimately make their own decisions and choose what they believe in, but we think that starting them off early was the way to go. Each family should chart their own course, though. | ||
| fiche Citizen Username: Fiche Post Number: 134 Registered: 3-2002 |
Not a church, but Ethical Culture can offer structure and learning. | ||
| fiche Citizen Username: Fiche Post Number: 134 Registered: 3-2002 |
Not a church, but Ethical Culture can offer structure and learning. | ||
| Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 353 Registered: 10-2005 |
I see what you mean, Hoops and Man Meat too. But, I'd prefer to be more humble than my athiest parents. Athiesm can be very very negative. The point is, I don't know. How could anyone know? I'm turned off by people who poo-poo religion, religious folk, then turn to their IPods and cel phones for solace. I guess I'm turned off by out-and-out nay-sayers because I was BIG on that for a long, long time, and feel a little wiser now. Wise enough to say I don't have all the answers, at least. I do want to encourage my children to choose their own system of beliefs. From what I've read about the UU, it seems right for us. I hope to see you there, C Bataille! | ||
| Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 354 Registered: 10-2005 |
PS: at least I don't have to fake liking broccoli  | ||
| dave23 Citizen Username: Dave23 Post Number: 1724 Registered: 5-2001 |
Too often atheism is just anti-church rather than the knowledge that there is no god. Anyway, if your daughter wants to go to church, I think you should take her. You should reward her curiosity. Chances are she'll have her fill--and probably be a bit bored--and will move on to new things and will hopefully spur interest in the unfamiliar. | ||
| MeAndTheBoys Citizen Username: Meandtheboys Post Number: 3658 Registered: 12-2004  |
Shanabana, I'm right there with you. And I agree with Hoops 100%. I feel like if I try my best to live my life as a decent, thoughtful, kind, moral human being (to the best of my ability) then my kids will learn from that. I was raised Episcopalian and chose to become agnostic because I also have issues with "organized religion." My husband was raised Catholic, and has no issues. So I assigned him the responsibility of getting them to church (Protestant, not Catholic). I believe sunday school has valuable things to offer. I think it did me good. However, when push comes to shove, we're all just too worn out from a long week to get our act together early enough to get to church on Sunday. I try not to beat myself up about it--too much!  | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1846 Registered: 10-2004 |
Shanabana: I don't have kids and I'm not religious. Having said that if I had kids I would certainly take them to church if they wanted to go but I would frame it for them with some context -- like the big picture. And when you go to a church try thinking of it as a school trip where you are learning about other people's cultures. On that same note, I would also take the same child to different churches (and the first one I went to would probably not even be a christian one) so they could see that there isn't any ONE belief stucture that is right for any one person and to open their minds to new things and to leave it open down the road so that they can choose for themselves. You don't have to tell your child what your beliefs are at first (well... until they ask I suppose). | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6128 Registered: 5-2001  |
Please don't forget introducing them to the joys of devil worship. | ||
| Zoesky1 Citizen Username: Zoesky1 Post Number: 1466 Registered: 6-2003  |
I have found myself in a very similar situation, Shanabana. I was raised Catholic, but was the product of a mixed marriage -- my dad was Church of England (this was back in England where he was born and raised), my mom is Irish Catholic. So my dad never really participated much in our religious upbringing. I basically abandoned the Catholic church about 20 years ago and haven't done much in it since. Meanwhile, I then married a Protestant who was raised Church of Christ. After some brief exploration of Unitarianism, we later joined a Presbyterian church here. We were terrible churchgoers, barely ever going, because neither of us were that into it. I honestly question my belief in any religion; I don't know that I believe in God. We did get our oldest child baptized Presby. Then we got divorced and all matters of religion were eclipsed by other priorities....our youngest child, who was 14 months old when we split up, never even got baptized anywhere, and she's now 4 1/2 years old. So, now my ex is remarrying and plans to join a Presbyterian church in Montclair, where he's moving. I am in a serious relationship with a fellow lapsed Catholic, and we aren't sure where we stand on joining a church. In the midst of all this, our kids are growing up as little heathens with no exposure to religion, and it does make me wonder how I can reconcile all this. Honestly, I could see myself joining a Unitarian church, but not sure how my kids would fit into this picture if they are going to a Presby church too.... Anyway, I have similarly mixed feelings.... | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 824 Registered: 7-2005  |
Well the trick is not to raise them atheist...just don't raise them with religion...celebrate christmas and easter...and just let them go as they please | ||
| Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 356 Registered: 10-2005 |
mem:  On a more serious note: From what I understand, the UU is non-trinitarian, so your kids, Zoesky, might be a little confused at first, but probably it will mesh in the end. Got this from the UU site that C Bataille recommended: Q:What do you get when you mix a universalist unitarian and a ku klux klan member? A:someone who burns question marks on your lawn. I like a "church" that can tolerate jokes! | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 171 Registered: 2-2006 |
Mem how are those dressing rooms coming.. | ||
| Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 357 Registered: 10-2005 |
Glock: I agree, to an extent, because that was how I was raised. However, I like all kids asked the tough questions: Question: Mom, do you believe in god? Answer: No. Question: Why? etc... So, in spite of the lack of strong statements ("We are Athiest!!) and in spite of religious holidays that we celebrated for tradition's sake--Jewish included--I was effectively raised athiest, and pretty much felt that "religion," as Karl Marx said, "is the opiate of the people." | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1851 Registered: 10-2004 |
Sorry but TV is the opiate of the masses. Although lately I've considered if MOL is the real opiate of the masses around here. | ||
| SoOrLady Citizen Username: Soorlady Post Number: 3286 Registered: 9-2003 |
Shanabana - a 5 year old will find most any church service long and boring. Our now adult kids started out in my husband's family's faith - Catholic, but ended up at Morrow Methodist. I'm a Methodist, my husband is a long-ago lapsed Cathoic. Methodism was a good fit for our family. Their current Church School program is amazing, but will be ending soon. They shift to a "one room schoolhouse" system during the summer and it's held during worship. In August, there is a week-long Bible School. You can contact Brenda Ehlers, who heads the education department, at the church and she'll be happy to discuss the curriculum with you. What I like best about Morrow is the community's commitment to outreach and that they have opportunites for all ages. Putting one's faith into action appeals to me. They are a welcoming congregation, but not overwhelmingly so. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 826 Registered: 7-2005 |
Yeah I was just never introduced to religion. Now that I look at it. I'm very, very glad. | ||
| Virtual It Girl Citizen Username: Shh Post Number: 4361 Registered: 5-2001 |
I'm an atheist too, and my husband is a lapsed CAtholic non-confrontational agnostic. My mom is Jewish and my dad is Catholic. We celebrate Jewish & Catholic religions in a semi-cultural, family oriented, rather than religious way. I have no problems discussing my views with my kids, and they have no problems asking questions and forming their own opinions. We have read books on Buddhism when my oldest was curious and I encourage them to share their thoughts. It's a real non-issue for my husband and I because we feel comfortable with the way we're raising our kids. There are lots of books that can help with your child's curiosities. Might be a good first step. | ||
| C Bataille Citizen Username: Nakaille Post Number: 2590 Registered: 5-2001 |
The religious ed program (for kids) at UCS (Unitarian Church in Summit) is divided into 4 quarters: UU Heritage, Judeo-Christian Roots, World Religions, and Social Action. It gives kids a great background. There is also a sexuality curriculum, separate opt-in, called OWL (Our Whole Lives) which is offered at the 2nd, 5th and 8th grade levels in age-appropriate fashion. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14055 Registered: 1-2003  |
I was raised atheist. My parents never said there is no god, but they never said there is one, and their non-belief was evident enough. My father was raised Orthodox Jewish, and he instilled my Jewish identity as a member of the Jewish culture. Oddly enough, I became pretty spiritual once I was out on my own. Shanabana, I think it's OK to show your lack of belief or at least lack of certainty. When questions arise, you can reflect the question back on your kids. Ask them what they think the answer is. And you can say you don't know. Attending church or being a member of a congregation can be more than sharing beliefs. Many congregations welcome people of varying beliefs and doubts. The biggest benefit for some people is a sense of community. It can be very big at times. My younger daughter developed a very strong Jewish identity and asked to be schooled and to have a bat mitzvah ceremony. I had never been a member of any Jewish congregation. So we joined one, and she started her Hebrew and Jewish studies late, in sixth grade. She caught up quickly, and her ceremony will be this coming June. So interestingly, we didn't drag her in. If anything, she dragged us, though we are happy to go and like the congregation and especially the rabbi. I have learned lots of interesting things about Judaism. There is a centuries old tradition of accepting a variety of beliefs and non-beliefs. It's possible to be a "good Jew" and an atheist at the same time. This is not an invitation to join our congregation (Congregation Beth Hatikvah in Chatham), though you are certainly welcome to check it out. As others have pointed out, UU and Ethical Culture might fit, and you wouldn't have to retroactively adopt a heritage that isn't yours (the Jewish one). But we have welcomed many non-Jews into our congregation. Whatever your beliefs are, going to a meeting once a week can be a release for the mind and nourishment for the heart and soul, since it's so different from the week's other activities. And sometimes, it's not about beliefs. Metaphysical beliefs are pretty weird, and as such, they're not all that connected with the physical world. Christianity, when compared with Judaism, seems to be more focused on creed, whereas Judaism (and Ethical Culture) are about "deed." That's not a value judgement. I'm saying wherever you go, even if it's Christian, you will find people who share similar values. And being with them can be a good thing, even if you disagree on metaphysical things. The community that forms can be wonderful. Soon after we joined, my wife found she had breast cancer. The congregation brought us dinners on days when she had her chemotherapy. It helped a lot. And we've had the chance to reciprocate since then, when others have needed help. | ||
| Joe R. Citizen Username: Ragnatela Post Number: 416 Registered: 6-2004 |
Shanabana: If your daughter wants to go to Church, take her there. If she thinks it's pretty, that's a start. Who knows what makes a kid want to go into a Church? At best, maybe you'll discover something wonderful there together. At worst....its a beautiful building! There are worse things you can do with an hour on a Sunday morning. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3017 Registered: 5-2004  |
Tom, I would agree with most of what ou said, except the part about being a good Jew and being Atheist. That would violate the first commandment. Not what most would call being a good Jew. Me? I'm a cultural Jew. MANY years of Jewish education (including Hebrew school at the JTS and 8 years of Hebrew day school), but I find it tough to have real faith. I like the community aspect of religious institutions, and understand the religious tenets. My issue is that I cannot believe a G-d is that interested in the minutia of following one religious rite or another. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3018 Registered: 5-2004 |
Shanabana, perhaps you could do a tour of various religious institutions? Maybe a few different churches and synagogues. I'm not sure if there is a mosque nearby (there's probably one in Newark). That way you can expose her to a lot of the rituals. At her age, though, it's the singing and the decorations that will most likely interest her. maybe in a few years you can have conversations with her about the differences between various religions. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11403 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tom, sweet story, although is you daughter really into it for the party and the swag? My personal opinion is that even if you are a non-believer getting you kids to a church or synagogue from a cultural prospective is probably a pretty good idea. We did this with our kids. I think the ethics stuck, but not the religion, at least for now. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 264 Registered: 4-2006 |
Rastro- I believe my cousin calls that " Jew by Food", i.e. cultural Judaism. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14059 Registered: 1-2003 |
bobk, she's in the home stretch now, and she's weary. At this point, she's in it for the swag and the party. She admits it readily. That's fine. She really did come for the identity and the education. She gobbled it up voraciously for the first two years. I don't think she'll regret it. And she'll probably take nourishment from it in one way or another for the rest of her life. And so will your kids. They may become observant again, for whatever that's worth. Rastro, people can join my congregation and go straight up to the rabbi and say, "I don't know if I really buy this God stuff" and she wouldn't be offended. We find common ground. And I agree that it doesn't seem likely that God cares if we follow the minutiae of rituals. We do it for our benefit. And if it nourishes our souls, it nourishes God. | ||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 1198 Registered: 5-2003 |
My family are atheists, going all the way back to my great-grandfather. When my sons were around nine or ten, we offered to send them to Hebrew school to preare for bar mitzvas, since many of their friends were doing so. We explained to them that if they went, they would be learning about things in which we did not believe, but they were welcome to go if they wanted to. We had been reading books about Jewish history and celebrating Hannukah. Both our sons told us that they absolutely did not want to go to Hebrew school. They said that their friends who went hated it and didn't want to be bar mitzva. We were careful to give them the same options several times, and each time the answer was "no." Our sons, now in their forties, with children of their own, have told us on several occasions that one thing that we did right was to not inflict Hebrew school upon them. Our oldest son married a fellow atheist of lapsed Catholic background. Their son is our sixth generation atheist. Our younger son married a Jewish girl who went the conventional Bas mitzvah route, and is sending his daughters to Hebrew School. You can't predict what will happen. You should act according what you believe is right. Atheists grow up to be as moral and responsible and decent and kind as believers. | ||
| Hamandeggs Citizen Username: Hamandeggs Post Number: 276 Registered: 8-2005 |
I think that exposing kids to faith is helpful because many battles lost and won are waged in the name of religion. I'm not just talking today; I think helps kids understand history a little better. And background in the Torah and Christian Scriptures helps study literature, too. just a thought... | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 268 Registered: 4-2006 |
Why don't you just drop them off at the South Mountain Reservation and let the deer raise them? Would make a charming Disney movie too. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 833 Registered: 7-2005 |
Religion...nope nope | ||
| campbell29 Citizen Username: Campbell29 Post Number: 422 Registered: 4-2002 |
My child also has religious issues. I am pretty much an athiest, and my husband is semi-agnostic (although he has some strange fundamentalist beliefs that he seems to have inherited). In any case, neither one of us practices a religion or intends to practice one. My daugher has asked numerous times if she could go to church, and I have told her that only Christians go to church and since we aren't Christian we weren't going. She did go with one of her friends and thought it was the greatest thing ever (no doubt if she had to go weekly, the thrill would pale). I feel really comfortable telling her that I do not believe in God, at least not one espoused by any organized religion, but she still wants to attend services somewhere, she was excited when she found out she could be Jewish or Christian. My dilemma is that since she is so curious I would like her to be able to at least go to a service at a church and a temple to see what its like, but I don't want to be under an obligation to haul her off to church, sunday school, or hebrew school on a regular basis, especially since I don't think any of it is grounded in reality. Its nice to know that there are others of our kind out there - even if we dont have the answers. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 272 Registered: 4-2006 |
You can also raise your kids to worship money. "Trumpism" I believe it is called. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1863 Registered: 10-2004 |
Campbell, I hadn't thought about the repurcussions of a child choosing religion while I'm mostly agnostic. You'd have to chaperone them each week, and when they get older to go to religious schooling even more frequently. Then there is the monetary side to it. The tithing and even jews are expected to contribute to the upkeep of the synagogue. So it hurts your free time and your wallet all for something you don't believe. Yowza!!! I might have to give my free wheeling attitude about my children getting to choose for themselves some more thought. Hmmmmmm...... | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1809 Registered: 5-2001 |
It makes sense to me to raise my children with what you believe is true (I'm atheist), it sure makes answering questions easier. Support your children with whatever they believe. If they want to explore organized religion I'd go with them to a handful of houses of worship. If one fits, I'd reach out and try to find a parishioner who would help them along as a Godparent. | ||
| Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 358 Registered: 10-2005 |
I love reading about everyone's backgrounds... Yeah, I think I'll start with the Universalist Unitarian church. I won't feel like a faker there, as I don't have to believe in a He, or feel like I don't belong in a group, or feel like a "sinner" amongst the "saved." I don't have the energy to go to too many different houses of worship, though the thought is compelling. From the picture they show at Summit UU site, the building should satisfy the daughter, and they have a nursury for the little one. Big plus. I've only been in the area for 2 years, and I think this is partly about me, too, wanting to be part of something bigger than my family, work, and the daycare community. Oh, and MOL. |
